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Fritzpw_Admin -> Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/25/2005 3:41:59 PM)

Discuss the dangers and issues surrounding the teachings and the leaders.



Mattumanu -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/25/2005 7:55:20 PM)

My problem with WOF beliefs is that many, many other world religions make the same claims. Theraputic claims, wealth claims... In fact, in Japan, years before WOF teachings started in the US, the cry of "you Gotta believe" was already growing out of the new age movements, and the west coast new age movements in the US picked up on this as well.

When Jesus talks about the kind of faith that WOF teachers point to for thier proof texts, he was talking about it in a sense that no one has demonstrated in 2000 years. Jesus said, "if you have faith the size of a mustard seek, you can say to this mountain 'be uprooted and be thrown into the sea" and it will happen"... but how many mountains are thrown into the sea?

No, the kind of faith Jesus was talking about must have been something else. Peter, after walking out towards Jesus on the water, sank. Jesus asked him, "why did you doubt?" Obviously, Peter didn't possess the faith that Jesus was talking about. The faith that Jesus talks about is not an optimistic attitude, but rather a sureity of belief. That kind of faith only comes from the Holy Spirit, created by the Holy Spirit in us when we hear the gospel. That kind of faith "rests" on the gospel. That kind of faith is a gift.



jk99 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/25/2005 11:48:30 PM)

Mattumanu Well said.
I think it all boils down to one thing.
People don't really understand how really big (G**) is.
O we like to think he can heal on a dime, but he is truely so much bigger than that.
Some really nice insights.



BCW1969 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/26/2005 8:57:19 AM)

Just last night on TBN, I don't consistently watch it, only certain programs, but they were in the studio, Jan & her husband, and Rod parsley and a few others , and Paul Crouch was speaking, and was directly adressing those people that are criticizing them and calling them heretical etc. , and he went on to attempt to "prove" the belief about God wanting to prosper his children , not his words don't remember exactly how he worded it, but the idea is the same. Yes at times it almost sounds formulaic from some preachers , as if if you do this, God is obligated to do this for you, I don't know about that kind of stuff. I may not have a fancy palace to live in or a mercedees to drive, mine is a corolla, but where I am in my life, the life God has blessed me with is a million times better than my life ever was without him, and it isn't just the iner junk that he drove out of me, but materialistically , my life is much better because of God. I am not saying that he was obligated to bless me as much as he did, but he did do it none the less.

Brad



psalm100 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/26/2005 11:19:17 AM)

What people fail to realize is that these so WOF preachers are dealing with the same devil we are dealing with. People look at them as if they are "invincible". They have problems and issues just like the rest of us. Like one lady at my church says "Eat the meat and spit the bones out".



Ps103 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/26/2005 1:59:57 PM)

A few years ago, a friend gave me a book and asked me to read it and tell her what I thought about it. She had found it at her daughter's house, when the daughter was in the hospital having cancer surgery.

The book was Florence Scovill Shinn's The Game of Life and How to Play It.

It did not profess to be WOF--it professed to be metaphysics--but as far as "name-it-and-claim-it" it was there. I cannot recall the percentage of the book that was directly quoting the Bible, but it was large; it was, however, not even close to the truth.

The basic idea was that any prayer was a "demand" of God, and that He was obliged to answer favorably (in the prayer's eyes). For that reason, she also cautioned against negative words or thoughts, as God was bound to give one ehateer one asked for. It made God into someone to be ordered about like a servant.

I am not sure if that is what the current WOF teaches, but the idea that I could obligate God to *anything* was pretty repellant.



stateofgrace -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/26/2005 2:04:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: psalm100

What people fail to realize is that these so WOF preachers are dealing with the same devil we are dealing with. People look at them as if they are "invincible". They have problems and issues just like the rest of us. Like one lady at my church says "Eat the meat and spit the bones out".


Well, I would guess you have never been hit with the "don't touch God's annointed" line....



psalm100 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/26/2005 2:14:51 PM)

We live in America where we have freedom of speech. We are entitled to our diffent beliefs and opinions. My thing is this: If you don't agree with their teachings turn the channel or read another book. All we can see is their "polished" image on tv. However, we don't know how much pain and suffering they had to undergo in order to be in the position they are in today. By the way I don't consider myself to be WOF.



jk99 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/26/2005 3:04:37 PM)

quote:

Paul Crouch was speaking, and was directly adressing those people that are criticizing them and calling them heretical etc. , and he went on to attempt to "prove" the belief about God wanting to prosper his children


OK Here Goes People.
Here is a thought that might very well blow your socks off. I have traveled the Globe and will tell you something that most have not seen but, would agree with me on this one. WOF'ers listen up. If you live in America have 3 meals a day, a roof over your head, a job etc…you are likely to be in the top 20% of this world, did you read that you are in the top 20% all ready. That means inherently you have already been blessed. Mattumanu has a very good point when he refers to the social group leaning towards this kind of belief, i.e. materialism i.e. Baby boomers possibly…and I don’t care if you are not a baby boomer it still applies. We live in a country that is so blessed and what do we do. We ask for more blessing to validate our faith. Why, well that’s obvious, what we do have perhaps isn’t enough for us is it. I am not saying WOF all think they deserve BMW’s cause they have faith but look at the fundamental principal of that teaching. I live in one of the most wealthy countries am in the top 20% and I talk about gaining prosperity. Are Christians meant to be poor…No…..but we should be contented. Just a thought.
Kind-a like a king complaining he just doesn’t make enough in taxes, while the servants struggle to put bread on the table?



StephK -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/26/2005 3:32:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BCW1969

Just last night on TBN, I don't consistently watch it, only certain programs, but they were in the studio, Jan & her husband, and Rod parsley and a few others , and Paul Crouch was speaking, and was directly adressing those people that are criticizing them and calling them heretical etc. , and he went on to attempt to "prove" the belief about God wanting to prosper his children , not his words don't remember exactly how he worded it, but the idea is the same. Yes at times it almost sounds formulaic from some preachers , as if if you do this, God is obligated to do this for you, I don't know about that kind of stuff. I may not have a fancy palace to live in or a mercedees to drive, mine is a corolla, but where I am in my life, the life God has blessed me with is a million times better than my life ever was without him, and it isn't just the iner junk that he drove out of me, but materialistically , my life is much better because of God. I am not saying that he was obligated to bless me as much as he did, but he did do it none the less.

Brad


Don't forget the pink or lavender big hair. Yes, I'm being facetious. That is the biggest turn off to TBN for me, I just can't get past Jan's hair and black eyeshadow. She makes Tammy Fay look subdued. How can anyone in their right mind not see the glaring obvious? Charlatains comes to mind when I see the set.

edited to add: Of course their theology is the other problem. I just can't picture Jesus using some of the methods of the WOF'ers.



JohnT -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/26/2005 3:59:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: psalm100

We live in America where we have freedom of speech. We are entitled to our diffent beliefs and opinions. My thing is this: If you don't agree with their teachings turn the channel or read another book. All we can see is their "polished" image on tv. However, we don't know how much pain and suffering they had to undergo in order to be in the position they are in today. By the way I don't consider myself to be WOF.


Let's forget the "America where we have freedom of speech" for a minute. Changing the channel or reading another book doesn't make the problem go away--and it is a huge problem. These false teachers are spewing doctrine that is poison and clearly in contradiction to the Word of God. They do it publicly; therefore, it is our responsibility as followers of Christ to rebuke and correct publicly. Thousands of people's faith has been shipwrecked on the rocky shores of the WOF movement. We are commanded in Scripture to confront heresy, and we must be faithful to do so. We should also lift these false teachers up in prayer that they will see the error of their ways and turn from it.

I believe if we genuinely love people as Christ commands us, we should do this.



Rufas2000 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/26/2005 4:38:38 PM)

I agree with JohnT. Nobody is saying that these WOF's have no legal right to preach their doctrine. Rather those that see WOF as heresy are saying this is wrong. Here's a non religious example: If a national news anchor (or news analyst) said that some of our freedoms should be curtailed due to the war on terror he would have the legal right but many people would do more than change the channel, they would say how slippery a slope this is. It is the same way Christians react when they hear/see some docxtrine or practice that is just plain wrong.

I personally don't try to play the Gotcha! game with TV preachers but I will fight heresy if it comes in my midst.



IAMlives -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/26/2005 6:37:56 PM)

LOL, are we going to apply the constitution to God's words now too? LOL.
Freely God gave us His truth in His word, and He FREELY expects us to FREELY speak the truth! God is not bound to democracy or any other government. In God's eyes, these false teachers do not have freedom of speech. They have the freedom to shut their mouths, which would be one of the wisest decisions they could make. But don't expect that anytime soon as they use those mouths to fleece God's sheepfold.

I've seen it said many times now, that one should turn the channel or turn off the tv, you don't have to watch etc. Also saying we don't know what pain or suffering these folks have gone through in order for them to obtain their positions...(in other words, shame on those who would speak up the truth against these wolves in sheep's clothing). Quite contrarily, the shame is on them, for they have abused God Himself. They have TOUCHED THE ANOINTED ONE, and done Him irrepairable HARM! Just how many sheep has He lost due to the heresies of TBN? I don't care what pain or suffering a person has gone through in their life, it will never justify robbing God of His precious sheep! NEVER.[&:]

What are these men and women preaching on TBN gaining in contrast to what God is losing? In the end accounting will be brought forth and vengeance is the Lord's.



kh31 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/27/2005 12:51:56 AM)

I used to feel secure and better than those WOF people thinking how could they think and believe these things. Then I would remember that I once believed WITH them and did as they did, prayed as they prayed and cursed as they cursed, thinking God was obliged to give me what I thought I needed or whatever I wanted because my tongue held some power it didn't.

I would remember that I was only pulled out by God's mercy and IF these men and women are condemned and I am not, it was totally by His mercy to me. An undeserved and unasked for mercy. I didn't want that from God, I wanted what everyone around me wanted, His obligated behavior. I believe that if some of the WOF preachers are condemned, then look at them as you would look at condemned sinners. Someone probably outside His mercy. It both angers and saddens me to see them and I am reminded of my own shamefulness. I was lead away by my own desires and foolishness, but I was rescued.

The shame of it is that they say things you want to believe, like so many are going to go to heaven in the Last days (they need money to facilitate this BTW), that there is going to be an "explosion" in the church and in righteousness in the last days, and you want to believe this because it sounds to right and it makes God look good and like a winner (to those who hear this) and God makes sense and looks like God this way yet in Jesus's parables He said many are called but few are chosen. The road to death is wide to accomodate many, but the road to life is narrow for the few. And end times prophesies talk about an increase in wickedness, even from within the church. The former sounds so good though, because you think victory comes in numbers or quantity and this is how God will "win", by the numbers.



Mattumanu -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/27/2005 2:53:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103

A few years ago, a friend gave me a book and asked me to read it and tell her what I thought about it. She had found it at her daughter's house, when the daughter was in the hospital having cancer surgery.

The book was Florence Scovill Shinn's The Game of Life and How to Play It.

It did not profess to be WOF--it professed to be metaphysics--but as far as "name-it-and-claim-it" it was there. I cannot recall the percentage of the book that was directly quoting the Bible, but it was large; it was, however, not even close to the truth.

The basic idea was that any prayer was a "demand" of God, and that He was obliged to answer favorably (in the prayer's eyes). For that reason, she also cautioned against negative words or thoughts, as God was bound to give one ehateer one asked for. It made God into someone to be ordered about like a servant.

I am not sure if that is what the current WOF teaches, but the idea that I could obligate God to *anything* was pretty repellant.


From what I've gathered so far, hardcore WOF is metaphysics. It's been said that Kenneth Hagin lifted large passages of E.W. Kenyon's work for his own books, and Kenyon was a Christian Scientist.



LongRider -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/27/2005 3:40:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: psalm100

We live in America where we have freedom of speech. We are entitled to our diffent beliefs and opinions. My thing is this: If you don't agree with their teachings turn the channel or read another book. All we can see is their "polished" image on tv. However, we don't know how much pain and suffering they had to undergo in order to be in the position they are in today. By the way I don't consider myself to be WOF.


I agree that you can "Turn the channel or read another book" however, as Christians, we are told " ... do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1 NAS). Paul also told Timothy to stay in Ephesus to "command men not to teach false doctrines" (1 Tim 1:3 NAS). I believe we, as Christians, have a duty not only to change the channel so our Bible-based theology isn't corrupted by false teaching, but to expose false teachings for what they are...false. If God wanted us all to be wealthy, why did he tell the rich young ruler to sell every thing he owns and follow Him (Mark 10:17-24)? Unfortunately, I think the followers of WOF will apear at the gates of heaven upon their death and hear the words "I never knew you, away from Me, you evildoers!" (Matt 7:23 NAS).



soblessed53 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/27/2005 3:59:56 PM)

Last night while reading Proverbs,I came across these two scriptures:

Pro 28:20 A faithful man shall abound with blessings: but he that maketh haste to be rich shall not be innocent.

Pro 28:22 He that hasteth to be rich [hath] an evil eye, and considereth not that poverty shall come upon him.

Seems those in WOF movement don't read the book of Proverbs,LOL!



jk99 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/27/2005 8:16:26 PM)

I am a little surprised and I don’t quite understand how living in America and free speech got tied up with the WOF issue. Living in America isn’t the only place you have free speech? Granted there are places where you don’t have free speech but there is a lot more places were you do. And so what if you don’t, (G**) moves in China so I don’t quite understand the relationship. It’s about peoples discussions not a constitution?



JimboFletch -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/27/2005 8:39:44 PM)

Is Joel Osteen a WOFer? Anybody catch his Larry King inverview?

He, Joel-boy, seems to be of the opinion that God will weigh the sincerity of Muslims, Jews, Hindis, and anyone else rather than whether they believe in Jesus. He said that Jesus works OK for him but others just might OK too without Him.

Maybe, just maybe, Joel-boy doesn't really believe such hokum and isn't afraid to say so in front of his church but is only a spineless dweeb around unbelievers. I don't know. I'm just reminded of Jesus' words, "If you deny Me before men..."

I caught a few moments of Joel-boy's opening program the other night before I turned to something more edifying. The thing that stood out to me during that brief time was the way the word "Joel" was swirled around and emphasized. One would think that he is the "rock" on which that church is built...



LongRider -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/28/2005 3:54:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

Is Joel Osteen a WOFer? Anybody catch his Larry King inverview?

He, Joel-boy, seems to be of the opinion that God will weigh the sincerity of Muslims, Jews, Hindis, and anyone else rather than whether they believe in Jesus. He said that Jesus works OK for him but others just might OK too without Him.

Maybe, just maybe, Joel-boy doesn't really believe such hokum and isn't afraid to say so in front of his church but is only a spineless dweeb around unbelievers. I don't know. I'm just reminded of Jesus' words, "If you deny Me before men..."

I caught a few moments of Joel-boy's opening program the other night before I turned to something more edifying. The thing that stood out to me during that brief time was the way the word "Joel" was swirled around and emphasized. One would think that he is the "rock" on which that church is built...


I missed that interview with Joel Olsteen by Larry King. I guess Joel missed reading this verse:

(John 14:6)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.



rockin4themaster -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/28/2005 3:57:28 AM)

"name-it-and-claim-it"[:@]
Didn't Jesus say: In this world, you will have tribulation?
I have seen too many friends die with cancer lately, that have been prayed for. (young friends)
One in his 20's the other barely 30 and a youth pastor. Some would say that they had sin in their life.
Don't we all? We all are not struck down!
I went on a missions trip to Mexico and saw very happy poor christians. The street people here
have it better! The prosperity message to me is hype!
Granted.....God does give some over abundantly in riches. But I don't believe it is because they claimed it
in the name of Jesus. They just worked hard as do some non-christians.



Eutychus -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/28/2005 1:00:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LongRider
I missed that interview with Joel Olsteen by Larry King. I guess Joel missed reading this verse:

(John 14:6)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

When someone like Joel O. is used to preaching what people want to hear, it's easy to slip on critical points with unbelievers...

I'm being facitious, of course, but I have heard several people shrug off his comments. He's feeding them the pablum and mush they want, so they don't want to listen to the warning bells or see the red flags. They are too comfortable in Zion to be bothered with trouble.



psalm100 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/28/2005 1:07:49 PM)

I think we have to be careful of these two facts: Just because you are rich means that God loves you more than anyone else OR Just because you are poor means that God loves you more than anyone else.



rockin4themaster -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/29/2005 12:04:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: psalm100

I think we have to be careful of these two facts: Just because you are rich means that God loves you more than anyone else OR Just because you are poor means that God loves you more than anyone else.


Good Thought!



Elad02 -> RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread (7/29/2005 12:34:00 PM)

quote:

My problem with WOF beliefs is that many, many other world religions make the same claims.

Don't other groups - i.e. Jehovah's Witness and mormons - make some of the same claims Christians do? That doesn't make Christianity wrong.

quote:

Jesus said, "if you have faith the size of a mustard seek, you can say to this mountain 'be uprooted and be thrown into the sea" and it will happen"... but how many mountains are thrown into the sea?

Obviously God didn't mean literaly moving a mountain here. He was saying that if we believe, we can do what seems impossible. Living in debt or barely making ends meet I would consider a 'mountain' in our finances. What's wrong with believing that that 'mountain' will be moved, and that our situation will be improved? And something like cancer would be a 'mountain' in one's health. Again why would it be wrong to believe God will remove it? It's obvious that in the NT Jesus brought about healing according to people's faith. It says in the Bible that God is always the same - He never changes - so why should we expect less of Him today?

quote:

The faith that Jesus talks about is not an optimistic attitude, but rather a sureity of belief.

Sureity of belief in what? In God? In what He says? His promices? The Bible says that even the devil believes, and trembles. Satan believes in God and believes who He says He is, so I would think it has to go beyond that.

quote:

If God wanted us all to be wealthy, why did he tell the rich young ruler to sell every thing he owns and follow Him (Mark 10:17-24)?

That isn't proof that God doesn't want everyone to be wealthy. The man's possesions were his idol/god. He thought he was obeying the commandments, yet he wasn't keeping the most important one - have no other gods before me. Jesus wanted him to get rid of his idol - not his wealth per se.

Ok even if it may sound like it, I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here. I just never heard of WoF or 'name it and claim it' theology before I joined this site, so I guess I'm just questioning what faith really is.



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