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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 3/29/2008 10:22:34 AM
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Who.I.Am
Posts: 151
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Hey All & Hi Cephyr,,
As i was saying in my previous post, there are some interesting ideas that you are speaking about here in your thread Brian. There are some points that have me wanting some answers and i'm hoping that you can provide some insight into what i would like to ask you.
Now i realise that you and Midwest have faith in the links that you are providing to us here and, yes i have had a look and see. However i also left there wanting to confirm the things i was reading. So if you have some links to some other resources & facts that would confirm what you are speaking of here,, that would be greatly appreciated.
quote:
Daniel 7:25
25'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
I'm not going to get into the specifics, but this prophecy was given to a Jew, for the Jews, and is about the Jews. In Matthew, the Jews are called the Old Testament saints. Those are the saints being referred to here. We know this prophecy was given to Daniel in 552 BC, so let's add 2,500 years.
-552 BC + 2,500 = 1948 AD The year the Jews became a nation again without anyone else ruling over them
quote:
This prophecy is about the end of all of Daniel's prophecies, which he says starts the time of the end. This prophecy was given in 533 BC according to historians.
-533 BC + 2,500 = 1967 AD (the year the Jews took back their temple mount)
quote:
When Ephraim, also called Israel, which is the 10 northern tribes, split from Judah (the southern two tribes), Ephraim/Israel ended up getting taken captive by Assyria and dispersed into the world, never to be heard from again. Historians place this in 724 BC. Let's add 2,500 years to that.
-724 BC + 2,500 = 1776 AD (The year the United States became a nation)
If you have a link for the bold here to confirm what you are saying regarding Daniel.
One of my favourite lines out of V for Vendetta is when V says;
" Like God i don't play with dice and therefore don't believe in coincidences"
I kinda have the same outlook where i don't believe in coincidences but a design made by the hands of God alone. And from what i am reading here in your posts there is a design that i think we should look into and see if this has any merit.
look forward to your reply?
Capture the Dream,
yours In Christ,,
God Bless
_____________________________
HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, Lord God Almighty-
which was, and is, and is to come.
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 3/29/2008 11:04:18 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1419
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We are to take the whole counsel of Scripture, if possible, into mind when making formations about our beliefs and teachings. It is written in Daniel that desolation decrees have been ordered and we see that in Revelation, we are given what they comprise and what things are to occur when the abomination that causes desolation is set up. That is why it is called the 'abomination that causes desolation'; because desolations Judgments are issued upon those who take the mark of the beast from the earth which is the number of the name of the false worldly prophet who causes miracles and wonders, even fire from heaven as a test to believers to see if we love The Lord our God and serve Him.
We must take an exhaustive and comprehensive and holistic approach to Scripture. For all Scripture is God Breathed...
quote:
Where in Revelation does it say that desolation decrees are poured "out upon the followers of the false worldly prophet leader"? Book chapter and verse that says this please. It is my understanding Scripture says the false prophet is cast into the lake of fire, I can't even find the term desolation decrees in the Scriptures. If it really says what you say it does then you should be able to list the book chapter and verse that says it. If not then I see no reason to believe what you have said, so once again book chapter and verse please.
JMHO maybe you should take a look at the rules of hermeneutics! Your posts and reasoning are about as clear as mud, you have not demonstrated sound Scriptural support for what you say end result, I have once again found discussion with you to be nonproductive.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/29/2008 11:12:03 AM >
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 3/29/2008 11:15:53 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1419
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Greetings! so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. It specifically says 'his name' here which means the it is one being who is a man.
We buy or sell with arabic oil producing countries, and we have been doing it for years. Therefore, the mark of the beast from earth has not been instituted worldwide. Therefore, your theory is incorrect regarding the Muslim Religion. Furthermore, if you spiritualize everything, satan has not been bound for an undefined period of a thousand years as you propose. For you say that we are already in The Millennium and that the mark of the beast is Islam at the same time. We know that is not what is written.
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ORIGINAL: Midwest
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
LOL!! Please account for why the Great tribulation desolation decrees have not been out upon the followers of the false worldly prophet leader as written in revelation.
What are you talking about? Please list the verses in Revelation you believe demonstrate this.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/29/2008 11:23:28 AM >
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 3/29/2008 12:35:12 PM
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Star4Jesus
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The Bible is full of prophecy's concerning America's last days. They talk about how America will end. And since America has rejected God and what He had to tell them, and all the warnings he gave America, God's rejected her and there's no hope for her. She's on her way out.
< Message edited by Star4Jesus -- 3/29/2008 2:46:03 PM >
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 3/29/2008 8:44:03 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1710
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quote:
You disrespect a prophecy that you do not understand. And you make fun of The Word of God as though we were being foolish. For we are fools in Christ, but you seem so wise! Where is your Scripture reference to provide for your idea that your country is so great? I see that some country is called Babylon The Great. But we are the people of the New Jerusalem; we are her offspring which God grafted in Graciously through the blood of Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.
Actually Babylon is right in Babil right next to Al Anbar which is currently seeing a vicious battle.
In seriousness though I don't know how I got linked to this thread but I got a chuckle out of the 17th century english and Godzilla comment so I thought I'd make a joke with it to. ; )
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 3/30/2008 2:59:56 PM
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tracydolls
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America is Babylon, not only do we control the ancient city of Babylon, we also fit many of the descriptions. Arrogant, will not be healed, etc. After 9/11 which is Rev. 18:7 and on. It's pretty simple.
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 3/30/2008 3:45:49 PM
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Star4Jesus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
America is Babylon, not only do we control the ancient city of Babylon, we also fit many of the descriptions. Arrogant, will not be healed, etc. After 9/11 which is Rev. 18:7 and on. It's pretty simple.
Amen. You are 100 percent correct.
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 3/30/2008 4:54:18 PM
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bob97
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I suspect it might be the theology that one is subject to.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 3/31/2008 3:33:59 PM
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cognitivemagic
Posts: 177
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quote:
the mark of the beast from earth has not been instituted worldwide.
The "mark of the beast" is not to be understood "literally"; just like the "beast of the earth" and the "beast of the sea" are not to be understood "literally" (i.e. as "King Kong" and "Godzilla").
Also, we have been in the "millenium" since Christ appeared. The "millenium" is the span of time (again, not literal) between Christ's first and second "parousia"/"appearing".
And so every generation that is alive during the "millenium" will contend with the "Beast" and it's "mark". The "mark" on the forehead and hand is best understood as the "thoughts" (represented by the forehead) and "actions" (represented by the hands) that are in conformity with the beast (spirit of the age), in opposition to the Church.
The two witnesses (Revelation 11) are to be understood as the Church, since Christ sent missionaries out by two's (like the 70 apostles).
One need not elaborate on Babylon since we can see her presence every time we turn on the TV or stand in line at the grocery store. Her image is everywhere nowadays. And her luxuries and adulteries are such a snare that God has to say "Come out of her my people".
Furthermore, there are not 2 peoples of God (Israel and the Church). There is only one people of God: the Church. There's the Church before Christ (Jews and Gentiles) and there's the same Church after Christ (Jews and Gentiles); because
" There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (Ephesians 4:4-6)
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 3/31/2008 4:40:54 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 394
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
If it were that simple, why do so many people (devout Christians with lots of study time under their belts) differ in their views?
Because they go with the status quo.
Why is it that in only the last 160 years has man progressed materially through invention? The ancients were just as intelligent as we are now... yet they could not figure out the world was round as the Greeks had 500 years before Christ. For much of the Church age, people were bound by their limited thinking.
Their minds, while just as capable as ours, were shackled by tradition, superstition, and a fear of change. It was not until God unleashed the first Spirit (Zec 6:5), the first Horseman, that a spirit of invention through scientific inquiry made modern life possible. This was so significant in the annals of time we call it the Industrial Revolution.
You have to realize that for much of the Church age, thinking had stopped with Augustine. The Roman Catholic Church had a policy to prevent change: to preserve the status quo. Just as people were locked into a crude manner of living off the land, the Church has been locked into a set way of looking at the Bible.
cognitivemagic's post typifies this type of thinking.
Without an Israel, what was the Catholic Church to think of all the end-time prophecy which revolved around Israel? They throw it out. Everything became figurative. Augustine even thought the Church-State relationship he enjoyed was the fruition of Christ's Kingdom on earth. He and others like him literally brought about the Amillennial and Post-Millennial schools of eschatology.
So in such an environment - the first beast became Babylon; the second - Medes/Persia, the third - Greece -- yet all these scholars simply overlooked the obvious contradiction of Daniel 7:12! The first three beasts survive the destruction of the fourth! Rather than be what has been accepted for centuries - this means the first three beasts of Daniel 7 are contemporary to and actually make up the fourth terrible beast!
This agrees with the depiction of the fourth beast in Revelation 13:2 where John plainly indicates the parts of the fourth beast in terms of the first three.
So why did they miss this literal application?
They were limited in their thinking. They simply could not foresee a literal fulfillment of God's Word anymore than they could envision that someday man would be able to fly or even go to the moon.
< Message edited by Sinner-Saint -- 3/31/2008 4:47:07 PM >
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 4/1/2008 9:42:38 AM
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Who.I.Am
Posts: 151
Joined: 6/16/2005
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Hey All & Hi Sinner-Saint,,
quote:
So in such an environment - the first beast became Babylon; the second - Medes/Persia, the third - Greece -- yet all these scholars simply overlooked the obvious contradiction of Daniel 7:12! The first three beasts survive the destruction of the fourth! Rather than be what has been accepted for centuries - this means the first three beasts of Daniel 7 are contemporary to and actually make up the fourth terrible beast!
This agrees with the depiction of the fourth beast in Revelation 13:2 where John plainly indicates the parts of the fourth beast in terms of the first three.
Ahhh, that is interesting. So basically?
1st beast - Lion - Babylon
2nd beast - Bear - Medes/Persia
3rd - Leopard - Greece
4th Rome
Here's where i want to make sure that i'm understanding you,,
The beast in Rev 13 from the sea, will be the 4th beast from Daniel? Somewhat repeating?? Except this time the 4th will not be an Empire by order from the 1st empire to the 4th. But simply that 4th beast of Dan & the final beast of Rev will be made up of the three beasts that had an extension of time until the return of Christ when that appointed time is to finish.
speak soon.
Capture the Dream,
yours in Christ,,
God Bless
_____________________________
HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, Lord God Almighty-
which was, and is, and is to come.
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 4/1/2008 10:30:31 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 394
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
So in such an environment - the first beast became Babylon; the second - Medes/Persia, the third - Greece -- yet all these scholars simply overlooked the obvious contradiction of Daniel 7:12! The first three beasts survive the destruction of the fourth! Rather than be what has been accepted for centuries - this means the first three beasts of Daniel 7 are contemporary to and actually make up the fourth terrible beast!
This agrees with the depiction of the fourth beast in Revelation 13:2 where John plainly indicates the parts of the fourth beast in terms of the first three.
quote:
ORIGINAL: IC.InChrist
Ahhh, that is interesting. So basically?
1st beast - Lion - Babylon
2nd beast - Bear - Medes/Persia
3rd - Leopard - Greece
4th Rome
Here's where i want to make sure that i'm understanding you...
That is the age-old interpretation, however, while we know those nations were depicted in the statue Nebuchadnezzar dreamed, the depiction of the four beasts are not the same. Daniel 7 then is a parallel account to Daniel 2. There would be no need to replicate that information.
While there are certain similarities between those ancient Kingdoms (of which the first three are long gone) and the contemporary end-time first three beasts, the first three beasts are alive (or on-going) when the fourth springs up. Indeed, they even survive the fourth's destruction when the "head" (the anti-Christ and the False Prophet) are captured alive at the last battle of the one 'seven' at Armageddon.
Thus - the first three beasts are NOT: Babylon, Medes-Persia, and Greece. Those that insist the age-old interpretation must be adhered to cannot reconcile Daniel 7:12 to history.
quote:
ORIGINAL: IC.InChrist
The beast in Rev 13 from the sea, will be the 4th beast from Daniel? Somewhat repeating??
Yes, the final beast of Daniel 7 is the same as the final kingdom of Daniel 2 AND the beast that rises out of the sea (Mediterannean - or Europe) in Revelation 13:2.
That Bible prophecy repeats something from different angles shows it's important.
quote:
ORIGINAL: IC.InChrist
Except this time the 4th will not be an Empire by order from the 1st empire to the 4th. But simply that 4th beast of Dan & the final beast of Rev will be made up of the three beasts that had an extension of time until the return of Christ when that appointed time is to finish.
The fourth beast of Daniel 7 is in the line of the fourth Kingdom of Daniel 2. Both are the last great nation/empire.
In Revelation 13:2 - we see that the fourth beast -which is unlike any other- is comprised of the first three beasts (America, Russia and EU in my opinion) and so makes up ALL of the nations which are in the successive line of Rome. This federated state will rule ALL of the northern half of the Northern Hemisphere.
Truly, the anti-Christ, who comes up from within a ten-minister ruling council over this future federated state will be the "King of the North." He will be able to order the Russian (and perhaps other nation's) forces into Israel in the Gog-Magog war.
Furthermore, in John's quick description of the beast (nation) out of the sea - we see all three beasts incorporated in the fourth. Interestingly enough, the third beast makes up the "body" of the fourth. Interpreting the EU as the third beast of Daniel 7 in quite inline with the revelation that the fourth beast is ruled by a ten-member council of ministers, or Kings. This is how the EU is constituted.
So I can't quite decipher what you mean in this last quote of yours as to 1st and 4th and all that - but I hope I have presented my opinion on the shape of the future fourth beast which does incorporate the most powerful nation on the earth (America) in it.
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 4/1/2008 5:46:48 PM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 267
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IC.InChrist
quote:
Daniel 7:25
25'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
I'm not going to get into the specifics, but this prophecy was given to a Jew, for the Jews, and is about the Jews. In Matthew, the Jews are called the Old Testament saints. Those are the saints being referred to here. We know this prophecy was given to Daniel in 552 BC, so let's add 2,500 years.
-552 BC + 2,500 = 1948 AD The year the Jews became a nation again without anyone else ruling over them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belshazzar
Daniel 7:1 says that this prophecy is given in the first year of Belshazzar King of Babylon. Wikipedia is not the best source, but it does give the date 553 BC. Most historians say that dates in the BC era have a 1-3 year ambiguity, so we're never sure if we're quite accurate with the dates in the BC era. The date is likely 553-551 BC, so the author of the book I read uses 552 BC to plug in his date, and it just happens to come out right at 1948 AD, the year the Jews became a nation, which is what the prophecy is about because it talks about the saints being delivered into the hand of this government being spoken of with 10 horns. The Jews did not rule themselves sovereignly up till 1948 AD.
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 4/1/2008 9:45:13 PM
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Who.I.Am
Posts: 151
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Hey All & Hi Sinner-Saint,,
Thanks for the reply and the questions i had asked.
quote:
That is the age-old interpretation, however, while we know those nations were depicted in the statue Nebuchadnezzar dreamed, the depiction of the four beasts are not the same. Daniel 7 then is a parallel account to Daniel 2. There would be no need to replicate that information.
While there are certain similarities between those ancient Kingdoms (of which the first three are long gone) and the contemporary end-time first three beasts, the first three beasts are alive (or on-going) when the fourth springs up. Indeed, they even survive the fourth's destruction when the "head" (the anti-Christ and the False Prophet) are captured alive at the last battle of the one 'seven' at Armageddon.
Thus - the first three beasts are NOT: Babylon, Medes-Persia, and Greece. Those that insist the age-old interpretation must be adhered to cannot reconcile Daniel 7:12 to history.
Gold- Head- Babylon- Lion
Silver- Breast/Arms- Medes-Persia- Bear
Bronze- Belly/Thighs- Greece- Leopard
Iron- Legs- Rome- 4th Beast (Dan 7)
Iron Clay- Rome(*New)- 4th Beast (Dan 7) & Rev 13 Beast.
* New Rome is what we have now except we call it something different.
So lets say Daniel 7 does repeat the four beasts, once for the time of those Empires and finishes it's first cycle, with Rome finishing around the Resurrection. Then the cycle repeats somewhat to finish what is written in Daniel 7 and Daniel 2.
If we never ceased being that Iron empire of Rome but now unlike before we are mixed with Clay, then are we not New in some way,, while still being part of the that old Iron Empire.
So what's the Clay ? & why did it start sometime during the Iron (Rome) empire to be smashed to pieces one day by Christ when it has formed it's 10 toes, or 10 horns.
Capture the Dream,
yours In Christ,,
God Bless
_____________________________
HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, Lord God Almighty-
which was, and is, and is to come.
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 4/1/2008 9:56:57 PM
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cognitivemagic
Posts: 177
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quote:
You have to realize that for much of the Church age, thinking had stopped with Augustine. The Roman Catholic Church had a policy to prevent change: to preserve the status quo. Just as people were locked into a crude manner of living off the land, the Church has been locked into a set way of looking at the Bible.
cognitivemagic's post typifies this type of thinking.
Present company would never lapse into that "error", right?!
The fact is, Dispensational pre-millenialism is the status quo of Evangelicalism. The fact is, it is absent historically until the 1830's. He is said to have developed his "theology" after he had deeply injured himself after falling from his horse, whence he began to believe that the book of Isaiah taught a twofold people of God: Israel and the Church.
quote:
This agrees with the depiction of the fourth beast in Revelation 13:2 where John plainly indicates the parts of the fourth beast in terms of the first three.
Which some commentators have indicated is "Rome"; but which "dispensational" commentators take as a "future Rome" because they separate the final "week" in Daniel's prophecy to fit their rapture theory.
More fundamentally, I'm not even Roman Catholic.
But this is the view of many well-respected Protestants like:
William Hendricksen's "More Than Conquerors"
Anthony Hoekema's "The Bible and the Future"
G.K. Beale's "New Testament Commentary on the Book of Revelation"
R.C.H. Lenski's "Commentary on the Book of Revelation"
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 4/2/2008 10:43:54 AM
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Who.I.Am
Posts: 151
Joined: 6/16/2005
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Hey All & Hi Cephyr,,
quote:
Daniel 7:1 says that this prophecy is given in the first year of Belshazzar King of Babylon. Wikipedia is not the best source, but it does give the date 553 BC.
While it's not the best source of info at times it sure is a job place to start when you need to look things up quickly, Thanks.
quote:
Most historians say that dates in the BC era have a 1-3 year ambiguity, so we're never sure if we're quite accurate with the dates in the BC era. The date is likely 553-551 BC, so the author of the book I read uses 552 BC to plug in his date, and it just happens to come out right at 1948 AD
So in the 1st year Belshazzar became King of Babylon, Daniel receieved the vision of the four beasts. And the year you are saying is 552BC plus 2500 years equals 1948- Isreal,, once again on the world map.
There just a few things i can't understand here,,
Why are we starting at Belshazzar ?
Why are we using 2500 years ?
In an earlier post you had described how you had calculated the 2500 days, and the method that you are using to get this date from 552BC - 1948. I think that, by itself is a good find.
However, I get lost in this design of yours when you start the calculating of the 2500days from 552BC, when the times time as mentioned in Dan 7.25 that you are using,, was actually taking place much later with the 4th beast.
So if you could explain this ,, that would be great.
Capture the Dream,
yours In Christ,,
God Bless
_____________________________
HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, Lord God Almighty-
which was, and is, and is to come.
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 4/2/2008 3:03:26 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 394
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IC.InChrist
So lets say Daniel 7 does repeat the four beasts...
Again you can presume anything you want but the first three beasts of Daniel 7 cannot repeat the representation of first three Kingdoms of Daniel 2 because they survive the destruction of the fourth!
The fourth is the same. The terrible beast of Daniel 7 is a revived Roman Empire. In fact, in history, it would be the fourth such revival of the Roman Empire.
The only repetition is at the end.
quote:
ORIGINAL: IC.InChrist
So what's the Clay ?
It's not iron. Iron people are European.
Europe and Russia have huge immigrant populations of Muslims from the Africa and Southwest Asia. They are the clay. They do not mix with the indigenous population on many different levels. Indeed, they weaken the whole: look at France.
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 4/2/2008 3:13:42 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 394
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cognitivemagic
Present company would never lapse into that "error", right?!
Well if you can't accept the historical basis for your thinking then being flippant and suggesting I'm wrong because everyone is fallible on some point or other is about the weakest defense I've ever seen mounted for your argument.
I am not Dispensational and there are other Pre-Millennium eschatologies out there which do not rely on Dispensational theology, which while you may not like it, is not heretical, however, neither does that make it right. I say again: I am not Dispensational. Try another tactic to carry your argument like looking at the passage in question and provide a holistic and comprehensive interpretation to it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cognitivemagic
Which some commentators have indicated is "Rome"; but which "dispensational" commentators take as a "future Rome" because they separate the final "week" in Daniel's prophecy to fit their rapture theory.
Essentially incorrect on a few different levels.
One, you do not have to be dispesational to discern a "gap" between the sixty-two 'sevens' and the one 'seven;' Gabriel does that within the verses by listing three things which come between them:
1. The Messiah being cut off.
2. The destruction of the city and the Temple which happened nearly 40 years later
3. War continues until the end - which so far has lasted almost 2000 years.
Two, seeing a "gap" which is naturally included within the text does not mean reverse interpretation whereby one makes the Bible read as they would like it, but taking what is plainly said and applying it within a whole eschatology.
Three, the Rapture is not a theory, but a demonstrable fact of end-time prophecy.
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 4/2/2008 5:21:50 PM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 267
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IC.InChrist
quote:
Most historians say that dates in the BC era have a 1-3 year ambiguity, so we're never sure if we're quite accurate with the dates in the BC era. The date is likely 553-551 BC, so the author of the book I read uses 552 BC to plug in his date, and it just happens to come out right at 1948 AD
So in the 1st year Belshazzar became King of Babylon, Daniel receieved the vision of the four beasts. And the year you are saying is 552BC plus 2500 years equals 1948- Isreal,, once again on the world map.
There just a few things i can't understand here,,
Why are we starting at Belshazzar ?
Why are we using 2500 years ?
In an earlier post you had described how you had calculated the 2500 days, and the method that you are using to get this date from 552BC - 1948. I think that, by itself is a good find.
However, I get lost in this design of yours when you start the calculating of the 2500days from 552BC, when the times time as mentioned in Dan 7.25 that you are using,, was actually taking place much later with the 4th beast.
So if you could explain this ,, that would be great.
Capture the Dream,
yours In Christ,,
God Bless
You asked this question: "Why are we starting at Belshazzar?"
Because Daniel says at the beginning of that prophecy that it is the first year of Belshazzar King of Babylon. Therefore, if we find the date of Belshazzar's first year as king, then we find the year this prophecy was given in.
You asked this question: "Why are we using 2,500 years?"
Because the prophecy says that the time period over which this will happen will be "time, times and half a time." We must know two things in order to decipher how long this means. We must know how long "time" is, and how much "time, times and half a time" adds up to. Is time 1? Is times also 1, or is it 2? We have to figure this out in order to calculate what "time, times and half a time adds up to." So, here's how we do that:
Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man
perceiveth it not.
Job 40:5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea,
twice; but I will proceed no further.
Psa 62:11 God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this;
that power belongeth unto God.
Those verses have the same type of saying used by Daniel for "time, times and half a time." They say once, yeah twice. Obviously, from that text, God's saying He spoke once, and then again one more time. Therefore, "once, yeah twice," means 1 + 1, which equals 2 times that God spoke. That means "Time, times and half a time" equals 1 + 1 + 1/2, which equals 2 1/2. So, we have 2 1/2 "times." But now we need to figure out how long a "time" is.
2 Peter 3:8
But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
Now, in the original Greek, the word for "day" in that passage is "hemera." Hemera is only translated "day" when it's used in the phrase "day of the Lord". Otherwise, it's usually translated as "time." The King James translates it 4 times to mean "time." The New American Standard Version translates hemera to 12 times to mean "time." It's safe to say that in 2 Peter 3:8, since it is not being used in the phrase "the Day of the Lord", it's very likely supposed to be translated as "time." Why would the translators make a mistake like this? Because "time" doesn't sound quite right in that sentence. So they use the other translation of the word, which is "day." Then it sounds more correct. But, if you were not aware that Peter was trying to tell the disciples that "time" in Daniel chapters 7 and 12 means one thousand years, then you would probably use "day" as the translation of "hemera" in that passage as well. So, in the original Greek, it would translate out like this:
2 Peter 3:8
But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one "time" is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one "time".
To further back-up what Peter is talking about, let's read the first 2 verses of the chapter:
2 Peter 3:8
1This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
2that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.
He says, "Remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets." Daniel was a holy prophet. He also says to remember the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles, which could easily be the commandment to stay blameless (without sin) till the coming of the Lord so that we do not go naked and ashamed when Jesus comes to rapture us: (Rev 16:15, between the 6th & 7th vials of wrath).
Now, let's see what the context is in 2 Peter 3:8
3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
So, Peter is trying to convey that it's going to be a LONG time to the end; so long that people will start saying, "Where is the promise of His coming?" The Peter says: "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as SOME count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." This means that while the time period being talked about is long, it's not because God doesn't want to come back and get us. He's just waiting a while, because it's His will that everyone be saved, and so if He waits a long time, then many people will be saved by Jesus in that time period, so He is patient for our sakes.
That means that all of this passage is basically talking about how it's going to be a while before the time of the end comes. And if they will "remember the words of the holy prophets (Daniel)," then they will want to know that "time" equals 1,000 years. If they understood this is what he was telling them, then they could've looked back at Daniel 7 and 12 to "time, times and half a time" and understood he was saying: 2,500 years from the time those prophecies were given will be the beginning of the time of the end. That's how Daniel puts it in Daniel 12's time, times prophecy, regarding the end times. He says all of these prophecies (written in his books, I assume) will be completed. Sure enough, if you figure out all of the numerical prophecies in Daniel, they've all come to pass as of 1967. Those people back then didn't necessarily hear Peter say "with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day." They may have heard him say, "with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and (V)a thousand years like one day." Why? Because they may have known what "time" or "hemera" means in context. We just translated it incorrectly and it's been throwing prophecy buffs off for years. And that sounds about right, because Daniel says that God told him to seal up these prophecies till the time of the end, which started in 1967.
So, time = 1,000.
Time, times = 2,000 or (1 time + 1 time)
Time, times & half a time = 2,500 or (1 time, + 1 time + 1/2 time) or (1,000 + 1,000 + 500 = 2,500)
Write it anyway way you like and it comes out to 2,500. Let me know if you have more questions. Hope I didn't botch that explanation up too badly.
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- Brian
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RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy - 4/2/2008 5:50:37 PM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 267
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: IC.InChrist
So lets say Daniel 7 does repeat the four beasts...
Again you can presume anything you want but the first three beasts of Daniel 7 cannot repeat the representation of first three Kingdoms of Daniel 2 because they survive the destruction of the fourth!
The fourth is the same. The terrible beast of Daniel 7 is a revived Roman Empire. In fact, in history, it would be the fourth such revival of the Roman Empire.
The only repetition is at the end.
I don't feel like getting into the specifics of this, but the beasts are more about the areas where nations exist, not the peoples of those nations at a particular time in history. Let me contradict that by saying that yes, the time in history for the beasts are correct. They did come and go. Here's what's interesting, though. The fourth beast, Rome, was crushed, and the other three beasts "Iran, Iraq and Syria" all remained to today. Rome's empire, however, is no more, really. Italy is Italy, and Rome is just a city now, not a world ruling center. At the end of that prophecy it says that the fourth beast will be crushed, but the other beasts will be allowed to exist for a season and a "time." There's that word "time" again. A season is a "quarter." If "time" is a thousand years, and a "season" is a quarter (approximately 250 years), then this time period would be about 1250 years. I say "about" or "approximately" because seasons are variable by a few weeks. They're never exactly a quarter of a year. They vary slightly.
If this prophecy has anything to do with those other three beasts (Arab nations) controlling the temple mount, then take 688 AD as a marker, because that's when the Muslims slaughtered 1 million Jews and ran the rest out of Israel for 1,260 years exactly, then that prophecy about 1,250 years (approximately) would be correct. There's a corrilating prophecy in Rev 11 right after a prophecy about the temple mount is given. It says the two witnesses will prophesy for 1,260 days (years). Funny how that works out, because the Muslims really did "remind" in the holy land for 1,260 years till Israel was given their nation back. The Muslims did remain just a little longer in Jerusalem, though, at first, because 19 years later there was the Six Day War where the Israelis too back Jerusalem and the temple mount from the Muslims. Oh, and there is a 42 month prophecy given right before the 1,260 day(year) prophecy. If you make every day of 42 months a year, then you'll find that it comes out to 1,278.5 years. If you add that to 688.5 AD, it comes out to 1967. (I say 688.5 AD because that's when Daniel's 1,290 days{years} prophecy ends is 688.5 AD, and that prophecy claims that's the abomination of desolation, which I believe is the Dome of the Rock being built on the temple mount)
So again, I must say, it's funny how that all works out so well...
With the 7 headed, 10 horned beast of Revelation, it would appear that those countries get back together again in some form under a world government, to some extent anyway (I could have this wrong, though. I'll have to check back into it again). Maybe that's the U.N. or something? The entire world (except for 5 nations) has ratified the treaty that puts all nations under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court (ICC) of the UN. That means all countries, except those 5, are under UN jurisdiction, meaning they do not have national sovereignty anymore. We are one of the 5. There could be less than 5 now. But who knows? I'll have to study up on the endtime beasts again as opposed to the beasts that have already come.
While I know the identity of the four beasts is correct in history as explained above, their role in the future I have to read up again on. So please don't take my word on this. I think I may be incorrect on this. The land of theory is not a solid place to stand, and so we should never base major beliefs on things that we cannot prove in the Bible without a doubt. Don't take my word for any of this. Research it for yourself.
< Message edited by Cephyr13 -- 4/4/2008 10:40:21 AM >
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- Brian
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