RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (Full Version)

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Cephyr13 -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/4/2008 10:38:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IC.InChrist

Hey All & Hi Sinner-Saint,,



quote:

ORIGINAL: IC.InChrist

So what's the Clay ?



quote:

It's not iron. Iron people are European.

Europe and Russia have huge immigrant populations of Muslims from the Africa and Southwest Asia. They are the clay. They do not mix with the indigenous population on many different levels. Indeed, they weaken the whole: look at France.



I look at this Statue and see all the Empires of man, from Babylon the first through to the final one which is written in about in Rev,, that rises from the Sea. By the time the statue is complete and all Empires have run their course finishing with the ten toes, Christ who is the Rock will shatter these Empires and Beasts so they are no more, and mans dominion and reign will be over.

Isn't this, the end to the dominion of man what we are waiting for. When man doesn't place himself above God worshiping himself, like the statue. When Kings and the Empires that they rule no longer rule over man with their his false Gods and idols. We who call on the name of the Lord look for the day when He reigns and He alone is King of Kings.

As gentiles we can go back to see where our family tree comes from, 200 years ago, 500, 700, a 1000 & so on. Somewhere along that timeline the Gospel was heard, then the Church was introduced and what was once a complete empire,, is now divided with the sword. Those who call on God and those who stay with the reign of man and his Empires.

On an individual level when we are born of the Spirit and our eyes are open, we no longer see man,, we see God. When once we where part of that Empire, Kingdom, Beast or Nation we now realise that we are just like the dirt that Adam was made out of.

Through Christ we have our Rock and our Stone and we the gentiles have been given access to a new Kingdom and are no longer part of that beast that was Iron,where once we gentiles resided.

For we have questioned God like Job, asking are we nothing but Clay that you can turn back to dust. And we have heard Isaiah's words when he said that we are nothing more than Clay and God is our Potter, with each one of us a work by His hands. Or when God told Jeremiah that the house of Israel is like Clay in his hands.

So do we serve God or Mammon, do we serve God or the King who is just a man?

We serve God as we know that we are like that Clay and are not greater than the potter. Through Christ the Rock we have Salvation, so when the rock shatters that statue we have nothing to fear as we are part of that Rock, through the Resurrection.

So as you can tell i think we,, those that call on the Lord and are part of His Kingdom are the Clay.

any thoughts on this?

Capture the Dream,
yours In Christ,,

God Bless


I don't mean to devalue what you said. There is "clay" and the "potter's hand" spoken of in non-prophetic texts in the Bible. However, we know there's symbolism in prophecy, and the iron mingled with clay has a specific symbolic reference to certain empires. And in this case, it's not the clay spoken of in regard to the potters' hand. Here's a quote. Maybe this is correct and maybe it's not:

In Daniel 2, the Roman Empire that
ruled the world during the time of Christ
was depicted as the legs of iron on the
image of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. The
feet of iron mingled with clay symbolized
the Holy Roman Empire, which was born
500 years after the demise of the Roman
Empire. It was somewhat of an aberration
of the Roman Empire. The element of
clay, which was mingled with the iron
portrayed the Roman Catholic Church
that intertwined herself with the political
powers of the day. This unholy union
between church and state became known
as the Holy Roman Empire.
-- Pg. 8, Endtime Magazine March/April 2002

If the church is "clay" in the hands of the potter, then it is possible that the Catholic church is the clay in this prophecy. If Rome is the iron, then it definitely mingled with the clay (Catholic church) to create the Holy Roman Empire. That lasted a thousand years till the late 1800s, if I'm not mistaken. That'd be my guess. I'm no expert on this, though, that's for sure. And I don't agree with everything Endtime Magazine believes in either, so that should be made very clear. I believe only a few things they believe in regard to prophecy.



tracydolls -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/4/2008 7:14:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

America is Babylon, not only do we control the ancient city of Babylon, we also fit many of the descriptions. Arrogant, will not be healed, etc. After 9/11 which is Rev. 18:7 and on. It's pretty simple.


Amen. You are 100 percent correct.




quote:

If it were that simple, why do so many people (devout Christians with lots of study time under their belts) differ in their views?




You know I have often asked myself that? It's right there in the Bible.

I think [8|] They don't take off their "worldly" glasses when they pick up the Bible.


We Christians here in America do not want to admit who we are.


We know we are the richest country in the world, but don't want to admit that our Church here in America is:

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:


I don't know how anyone can read Rev. 18: 7 and not believe we are Babylon.

How can we have just participated in the mess going on in Babylon (Basra, Iraq)over the last week and not think we are Babylon.

I don't know. I think about it.

Read Zep or Zec.? About how in that Great Day. (The end of earth as we know it)He will give His People a pure langauage again. Jews speak Hebrew again, it's taught now.

In that same book, there is also a verse where The Lord will call His daughter's back from beyond the rivers of Ethiopia,

That's happening now.

Janet Jackson helped pay for some Ethiopian Jews to get to Israel in 1984. It was called Operation Moses.

Also A South African Tribe called the Lembas and the a tribe of Davidans of India have tested Jewish with DNA.

He's calling them back.


As to Daniel, the mixed kingdom, the Romans, and Rev. 13. The beast with 7 heads, and 10 horns is not King Kong.

Take off your wordly eyes, look at BO.

Look again.

I see Romans, remember the Romans conquered Europe, mixed, I see Europeans in BO.

I see so many horns and heads , think about it. Christian, Moslem, Athiest, black, white, asian, african.

He will be given 42 months to speak great things.

And then the second one comes...



I don't know how any Christian cannot see it.

Makes me think about that movie " They Live" where they needed sunglasses to see the aliens.

Not all people got the sun glasses.



Cephyr13 -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/4/2008 9:37:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

America is Babylon, not only do we control the ancient city of Babylon, we also fit many of the descriptions. Arrogant, will not be healed, etc. After 9/11 which is Rev. 18:7 and on. It's pretty simple.


Amen. You are 100 percent correct.




quote:

If it were that simple, why do so many people (devout Christians with lots of study time under their belts) differ in their views?




You know I have often asked myself that? It's right there in the Bible.

I think [8|] They don't take off their "worldly" glasses when they pick up the Bible.


We Christians here in America do not want to admit who we are.


We know we are the richest country in the world, but don't want to admit that our Church here in America is:

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:


I don't know how anyone can read Rev. 18: 7 and not believe we are Babylon.

How can we have just participated in the mess going on in Babylon (Basra, Iraq)over the last week and not think we are Babylon.

I don't know. I think about it.


People don't understand some basic principles of the Bible that are so very important to understand. Maybe you do, and I'm misunderstanding you.

For instance, the Bible does not say money is evil. It says money is A ROOT of ALL KINDS of evil. Root means that money provides a means for people to become greedy, but it doesn't make them greedy. Maybe you understand that, but you are basically saying that because America is so rich, we are evil. That's an incorrect statement. That would mean all rich people are evil. There are lots of rich people that give TONS of money to help TONS of people.

Look at what America does with her money. She gives tons of it to the rest of the world in foreign aid. America has army and air bases all over the world in tons of countries so that if war starts out and those countries need help, we can quickly come to their aid. America saved the world's oil supply by going into Iraq, and even saved the people of Iraq as well. Had we not gone in, Iran had been attacking Iraq, trying to take them over, and they were very serious about taking over Iraq and controlling the oil. We stopped that. Iran still says they want to take over Iraq and control all of the oil and then jack up the prices for everyone and destroy the rest of the nations of the world. If they turned off the oil supply from the middle east, it would only take a matter of days to shut the world down. No food would get to groceries stores, because trucks would not have gas or oil. Sewing machines would eventually stop working without oil to lube them up, so cheap clothing would not be around (even though it couldn't make it to stores anymore). No one could make it to work eventually, due to lack of gas. Oil loss would collapse the economies of the world. We saved the world from that by going into Iraq. I just read an article put out by one of our government agencies that said they recovered over 600,000 documents in Iraq that prove Saddam was funding terrorism, had terrorist training camps in Iraq, and at least one that trained terrorists to fly planes into buildings. He was very much causing major problems for the world and the U.S.

I can name lots of ways America has been selfless in spending their money and time and effort to help the rest of the world when the rest of the world has been hating us for years. And for what reason?? Are they just jealous that we have done so well for ourselves? We got where we are today because we are one of the only countries build on a foundation of Judao-Christan values, with people who respect those values and live them. And through those values we have built a wonderful country and earned everything we have. In the past 50 years, though, our morals have gone down the drain, because we have given in to greed because we have not learned good morals and kept them. We got selfish and used our money for greed instead of selflessness and responsibility. But that does not make our country bad.



tracydolls -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/5/2008 12:14:50 AM)

quote:

"""""I can name lots of ways America has been selfless in spending their money and time and effort to help the rest of the world when the rest of the world has been hating us for years. """"""


Selfless in what , giving some crumbs of what has been stolen? America is selfless in giving to her people, that worked over 200 years, free?

I am an American, I don't hate America, I FEEL SORRY FOR AMERICA. I pray for us everyday.



quote:

""And for what reason?? Are they just jealous that we have done so well for ourselves?""


No they probaly mad at the wealth being thrown away on ALOT of junk.

They probaly mad watching thier diamonds being brought here and thrown around, and then told they can't wear them, even though they came from their home.

quote:

"""We got where we are today because we are one of the only countries build on a foundation of Judao-Christan values"""


No we did not build it on Judeo-Chrisitian Values. That word is no where in the Connstituion. Neither is God. Thomas Jefferson and them wrote freedom of Religion to be free from CHRISTIANS, the Church of England.

"Put founding fathers not Christian," in your search engine there were alot of them that were not Christian, there are some that were.



quote:

"""with people who respect those values and live them. And through those values we have built a wonderful country and earned everything we have."""""


Are you one of those that helped to build it. Did any of your forebears help to build it? Because Cotton, Tobacco and Rice built this country. Did your forebears pick any?


quote:

"""In the past 50 years, though, our morals have gone down the drain, because we have given in to greed because we have not learned good morals and kept them. We got selfish and used our money for greed instead of selflessness and responsibility. But that does not make our country bad. """


The past fifty years. You mean since the inception, when millions of Natives were killed to take it over, You can't mean Coulumbus, he never stepped foot in America, he was in Cuba killing all the Arawhak Indians, you see no native Cubans now because of him,

We refused to pay millions of people for their honest work. For over 2 hundred years.

This country has always been greedy, if nothing else.

The Bible says do not oppress a man in his wages.

quote:

America saved the world's oil supply by going into Iraq, and even saved the people of Iraq as well. Had we not gone in, Iran had been attacking Iraq, trying to take them over, and they were very serious about taking over Iraq and controlling the oil.



Yeah, that oil. We saved the oil? Read how in the Bible it says they will come for the hidden treasures in the ground from the land of Esau.

Now read where Esau's land is.

Our country is terrible, in some real trouble..

Well we are a Church here in America? Right, we feel we are the Body of Christ, that's what we claim, right. You read what Jesus says to the 7 Churches. WE gotta be one, right? Which one. Go back and read it again.



Tell me which one you think we are? I'm pretty sure it's this one after reading your post!

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.



Cephyr13 -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/5/2008 9:41:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

quote:

"I can name lots of ways America has been selfless in spending their money and time and effort to help the rest of the world when the rest of the world has been hating us for years. "


Selfless in what , giving some crumbs of what has been stolen? America is selfless in giving to her people, that worked over 200 years, free?

I am an American, I don't hate America, I FEEL SORRY FOR AMERICA. I pray for us everyday.


I cannot take away your pity for this nation nor your anger at what we do. That's your own personal opinion and view of the country and you must seek out answers on your own to shape those opinions. Unfortunately, in my opinion, you've sought out the wrong sources of your information. I'll disprove many things you mistated and misinterpreted in the replies you gave.

What I was speaking of is the fact that we work hard here in America, and make a lot of money and we give a lot in foreign aid to tons of other countries. Our foreign aid amounts to more than most of the other countries foreign aid combined. We are the most charitable nation on the planet. You say we stole this land from the natives? Then you should call God Himself a tyrant then, because in the Old Testament, God tells the Hebrews to go into the land of Cannan and utterly drive out everyone in the land and make it their own land; the Promised Land. He tells them to destroy every false god's temple and anything like that. They did this by way of war at God's command.

Now, if you read a bunch of the accounts of the Pilgrams, you'll find that many of them write in their letters or journals that they were being told by God to go to the new land and start a new life there. Many founding fathers are quoted as saying that this nation was a divine providence by God Himself.

quote:


quote:

"And for what reason?? Are they just jealous that we have done so well for ourselves?"


No they probaly mad at the wealth being thrown away on ALOT of junk.

They probaly mad watching thier diamonds being brought here and thrown around, and then told they can't wear them, even though they came from their home.

Let me explain a little about business and economy. If you have the money to conduct business, then you have the means to conduct it. The African diamond minds were not being mined by the Africans, because they do not have the resources to mine them. They are a poor people. So, since we have wealth, we purchased their diamond minds and hired them to work for us, mining the diamonds, and we pay them with our own money, which puts money into THEIR economy and stimulates it. This brings African's good paying jobs and increases their lifestyles and gives them confidence in providing for their families. It brings money to the neighborhoods, and the taxes from that increased money brings more government money to help build a nicer community for the people. The sales taxes from the spending of that money gives even more money to the neighborhoods. None of that would've happened had we, and other countries, not gone in and spent the money and time and effort to buy and work those mines.



Cephyr13 -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/5/2008 9:58:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:

"We got where we are today because we are one of the only countries build on a foundation of Judao-Christan values"""


No we did not build it on Judeo-Chrisitian Values. That word is no where in the Constitution. Neither is God. Thomas Jefferson and them wrote freedom of Religion to be free from CHRISTIANS, the Church of England.

"Put founding fathers not Christian," in your search engine there were alot of them that were not Christian, there are some that were.


There are some incorrect assessments in your statement.

**Excerpt from the Declaration of Independence - July 4th, 1776
When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights. . ."
**End of excerpt

So, as you can see, God is mentioned twice, once by "God" and once by "Creator," at our conception of this country.

Regardless of the fact that Thomas Jefferson and some of the others were atheists or agnostics or Deists, they signed this document. There were Free Masons, and Christians, and Deists and unbelievers.

Thomas Jefferson and others didn't put the religious freedom into the constitution to get away from Christians. They put it in in order to get religion out of the hands of government. Because everytime government gets ahold of religion, they use their power to enforce their view of religion on people and to justify killing of innocents, and do horrid things. The Holy Roman Empire is the prime example of this, because it was the joining of a religious leader and a political leader together that caused such problems for years and years, like the dark ages and the and the Spanish Inquisition, etc... Anytime government gets hold of religious control, they completely abuse it in ways it never should've been used. Thomas Jefferson wanted anyone to be able to worship anyway they wanted without being persecuted, and he wanted anyone that didn't want to worship to be free to do that too. The Church of England was simply one of the more present examples for them to pull from because it was a government created religion/insitution and used in very incorrect ways.

After I finish posting replies to your other comments, I'm going to post a list of comments from the founding fathers that show just exactly who is and isn't a Christian.



Cephyr13 -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/5/2008 10:23:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:

"with people who respect those values and live them. And through those values we have built a wonderful country and earned everything we have."


Are you one of those that helped to build it? Did any of your forebears help to build it? Because Cotton, Tobacco and Rice built this country. Did your forebears pick any?


So now this is about slavery as well? There were slaves in the Bible who were Jews and could put themselves into slavery to pay debts. The Jews also enslaved the Cannanites wrongly at that time when they took the Promised Land. It isn't right what our country did in regard to slaves. But we fixed that eventually. The world had a lot of slavery going on, and these men had not yet broken out of it in this country. But we did eventually. So many people live in the past... Jesus died for our sins so we would not live in the past and dwell upon them, because if we did, we would get angry and upset, like you are. We have moved on from that, and it's in remembering that that we keep racism alive and contempt for our countries mistakes in the past of which we have been absolved.

quote:


quote:

"In the past 50 years, though, our morals have gone down the drain, because we have given in to greed because we have not learned good morals and kept them. We got selfish and used our money for greed instead of selflessness and responsibility. But that does not make our country bad. "


The past fifty years. You mean since the inception, when millions of Natives were killed to take it over, You can't mean Coulumbus, he never stepped foot in America, he was in Cuba killing all the Arawhak Indians, you see no native Cubans now because of him,

We refused to pay millions of people for their honest work. For over 2 hundred years.

This country has always been greedy, if nothing else.

The Bible says do not oppress a man in his wages.


Neither did this country in the beginning. We didn't have an income tax to begin with. That didn't happen till the late 1800s, and it didn't work, so they tried it again 1913, if I remember correctly, when the Federal Reserve Bank was created, and that was a huge downfall of our nation. The Federal Reserve Bank is not a part of this country. It's owned by a group of European banks/bankers. Oh well... We'll learn our lesson someday hopefully and kick them to the curb.

quote:


quote:

America saved the world's oil supply by going into Iraq, and even saved the people of Iraq as well. Had we not gone in, Iran had been attacking Iraq, trying to take them over, and they were very serious about taking over Iraq and controlling the oil.



Yeah, that oil. We saved the oil? Read how in the Bible it says they will come for the hidden treasures in the ground from the land of Esau.

Now read where Esau's land is.

Our country is terrible, in some real trouble..


I don't deny that our government and our morals are in major trouble. But to get down on the country is not the solution. And for us to not help the world by saving the oil supply is not right either, because we would've collapsed with the rest of the world had Iran gone into Iraq and taken it over successfully. Don't take lightly the freedom and luxury you have here, if you live in America. We are very blessed. If you don't like the country, try moving somewhere else for a while and then see how you like America and what you currently possess here. From what I hear, most other countries that are not democratic do not have nearly the form of freedom we have and are heavily oppressed with taxation and government owned business entities, etc...

quote:


Well we are a Church here in America? Right, we feel we are the Body of Christ, that's what we claim, right. You read what Jesus says to the 7 Churches. WE gotta be one, right? Which one. Go back and read it again.

Tell me which one you think we are? I'm pretty sure it's this one after reading your post!

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.


I prefer to read things in context. What you are showing in Revelation is not about future churches. It is about a specific church at that time located in Laodicea. Here's how we know it's not speaking to a church of the future:

Revelation 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

So, John is told he's going to write about things that he HAS seen (past tense), things which currently "are" happening, and things that will happen in the future (hereafter), in that order.

The things of the past and present are spoken of in Chapter 2. Jesus tells these churches that they've done things wrong in the past, and are currently still doing them, and He would like them to change those things. Jesus finishes speaking to the seven churches at the end of chapter 3. Then chapter 4 starts out:

Revelation 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

So, as you can see, this church being spoken of and to is a church from that time period around 90 AD, not a church in the future. Context is very important, and it's very important not to extend what is said beyond to whom it was written.

To answer your question: We are not any of those churches. Plain and simple.



Cephyr13 -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/5/2008 10:27:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:


"We got where we are today because we are one of the only countries build on a foundation of Judao-Christan values"


No we did not build it on Judeo-Chrisitian Values. That word is no where in the Connstituion. Neither is God. Thomas Jefferson and them wrote freedom of Religion to be free from CHRISTIANS, the Church of England.

"Put founding fathers not Christian," in your search engine there were alot of them that were not Christian, there are some that were.


Here's an article from your search engine suggestion you should read that gives a fair and unbiased view on the subject of our founding fathers and what their beliefs were:

Aricle found here: http://watkins.gospelcom.net/foundingfathers.htm

Were US Founding Fathers Christian?
'one nation under generic supreme being'

Pop quiz! Take out a clean sheet of paper and a Number 2 pencil.

True or False: The Declaration of Independence was signed July 4, 1776


All signatures were not inked until August 2.

True or False: George Washington was the first president of the United States

[Edited by moderator - posting entire article]



tracydolls -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/5/2008 2:03:46 PM)

quote:

[I cannot take away your pity for this nation nor your anger at what we do. That's your own personal opinion and view of the country and you must seek out answers on your own to shape those opinions. Unfortunately, in my opinion, you've sought out the wrong sources of your information. I'll disprove many things you mistated and misinterpreted in the replies you gave.

What I was speaking of is the fact that we work hard here in America, and make a lot of money and we give a lot in foreign aid to tons of other countries. Our foreign aid amounts to more than most of the other countries foreign aid combined. We are the most charitable nation on the planet. You say we stole this land from the natives? Then you should call God Himself a tyrant then, because in the Old Testament, God tells the Hebrews to go into the land of Cannan and utterly drive out everyone in the land and make it their own land; the Promised Land. He tells them to destroy every false god's temple and anything like that. They did this by way of war at God's command.



Did God tell Americans to do this? Where? I wanna see it.

quote:

Now, if you read a bunch of the accounts of the Pilgrams, you'll find that many of them write in their letters or journals that they were being told by God to go to the new land and start a new life there. Many founding fathers are quoted as saying that this nation was a divine providence by God Himself.



That would be fine in all except anybody reading american history knows that the Pilgrims were not the first people here, they got here in 1620.

almost 20 years after the first settlers. The Royal London came first and started a colony. History.


quote:

Let me explain a little about business and economy. If you have the money to conduct business, then you have the means to conduct it. The African diamond minds were not being mined by the Africans, because they do not have the resources to mine them. They are a poor people. So, since we have wealth, we purchased their diamond minds and hired them to work for us, mining the diamonds, and we pay them with our own money, which puts money into THEIR economy and stimulates it. This brings African's good paying jobs and increases their lifestyles and gives them confidence in providing for their families. It brings money to the neighborhoods, and the taxes from that increased money brings more government money to help build a nicer community for the people. The sales taxes from the spending of that money gives even more money to the neighborhoods. None of that would've happened had we, and other countries, not gone in and spent the money and time and effort to buy and work those mines.



What? we paid wages, No we did'nt!!!! That's a lie. Them diamonds been mined for over 400 years. WE did not pay the Africans until 1991 when Mandela became President. WE paid them out of their money. Wow, let's really look if we would've left them shiny rocks there. What would've happened if we left them there, not slaughtered 1000's for them. What? We would'nt have some stuff to buy, we would'nt have innocent blood on our hands.

Let me see, that would've mean how many less tiaras for Queens. In my book she don't really need them.

What neighborhoods look good in AFrica? Look like they dying by the 1000's now after all our "foriegn aid, Christianity Missionary work, giving them wages for their diamonds, etc if that is help, I hate to see what the other side is!!

quote:

No we did not build it on Judeo-Chrisitian Values. That word is no where in the Constitution. Neither is God. Thomas Jefferson and them wrote freedom of Religion to be free from CHRISTIANS, the Church of England.

"Put founding fathers not Christian," in your search engine there were alot of them that were not Christian, there are some that were.



There are some incorrect assessments in your statement.

**Excerpt from the Declaration of Independence - July 4th, 1776


No your incorrect, read what I wrote, it is not mentioned in the Constitution, you brought up the Declaration of Independence.

quote:

So now this is about slavery as well? There were slaves in the Bible who were Jews and could put themselves into slavery to pay debts. The Jews also enslaved the Cannanites wrongly at that time when they took the Promised Land. It isn't right what our country did in regard to slaves. But we fixed that eventually. The world had a lot of slavery going on, and these men had not yet broken out of it in this country.



So we throw up the slavery of the Israelites to justify our slavery, ok let's really look at that.

Read it again.

Should slaves here do what the Bible says to do? Plunder the Egyptians as they left.

So let's see. let's look around and think about what belonged to or was built by the slaves. Hmmmmm...


Well they could take take the rubber off all the tires, rubber comes from Africa, 1/5 of all the oil comes from Nigeria, cocoa for chocolate, gold, diamonds, all monies earned by cotton, rice, tobacco. How much is that worth?

They also have to get all their inventions, the clothes dryer, the stop light, gas mask, air conditioner, the REal Mccoy, the list is just too long.

Alot of Zoo animals. Let me keeping thinking about it, I'm sure I could come up with tons more.


quote:

I prefer to read things in context. What you are showing in Revelation is not about future churches. It is about a specific church at that time located in Laodicea. Here's how we know it's not speaking to a church of the future:



You gotta take it into context, Your right! I have read it and reread it, we are that Chruch! Reread you post, you said it just right, look again.

But if you do not look honestly, I do not think it goes well. If you look at American history, and think we are great people, we killed , stole, rape, maimed. lied to get what we wanted, but are so great, then that's just not being honest.

A group of business men for the Royal London Company started this mess. When the slaves went to Egypt, they went to an already powerful kingdom, slaves Built this one!!!


I read alot of articles, from all over, I don't just read one.

I'm the type to search out everything. I love learning! If you got something I don't know, please forward.


America's Babylon, there ain't NO WAY around it.



bob97 -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/6/2008 12:14:08 AM)

quote:

America's Babylon, there ain't NO WAY around it.


Believe on Tracy…that will be your reality then.

Bob



cybrjewls -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/6/2008 8:01:45 AM)

Hello tracy! Please notice the Scripture teaches that all of the nations that have ever existed have drunk in the aduletery (disobedience) against God:


Babylon is the spiritual city that we were called out of to become new creations in Christ to bear good fruit in accordance with the ways of the city called New Jerusalem. We no longer belong to the world, we belong to Christ.

Just as Abraham was called out of Ur of the Chaldeans (What was to become the empire known as Babylon), and Israel was called out of Egypt; we are called out of the world to be blessed with eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

"I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. We are called out of spiritual bondage and slavery to Babylon to serve free in Christ bearing good fruits that last in keeping with repentance.

As Bob Marley said, "No woman (Babylon), no cry. (hades)".


quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls



Cephyr13 -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/6/2008 11:03:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

quote:

[I cannot take away your pity for this nation nor your anger at what we do. That's your own personal opinion and view of the country and you must seek out answers on your own to shape those opinions. Unfortunately, in my opinion, you've sought out the wrong sources of your information. I'll disprove many things you mistated and misinterpreted in the replies you gave.

What I was speaking of is the fact that we work hard here in America, and make a lot of money and we give a lot in foreign aid to tons of other countries. Our foreign aid amounts to more than most of the other countries foreign aid combined. We are the most charitable nation on the planet. You say we stole this land from the natives? Then you should call God Himself a tyrant then, because in the Old Testament, God tells the Hebrews to go into the land of Canaan and utterly drive out everyone in the land and make it their own land; the Promised Land. He tells them to destroy every false god's temple and anything like that. They did this by way of war at God's command.



Did God tell Americans to do this? Where? I wanna see it.


I'm dumbfounded right now. You didn't know that God told the Israelites to go take the land of Canaan as their Promised Land? You should slap your pastor around a bit for never teaching that. And you should read the Old Testament more often. Awesome stories in there! You'll love it. I'll give you some verses.

Exodus 3:8
So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey—the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.

(God, by giving the Israelites this land of Canaan, God drives them out and instructs the Israelites to kick all fo these people listed above OUT of the land. I'll show the verses...)

Exodus 6:4
I also established my covenant with them to give them the land of Canaan, where they lived as aliens.

Exodus 16:35
The Israelites ate manna forty years, until they came to a land that was settled; they ate manna until they reached the border of Canaan.

Exodus 23:23
My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out.

Deuteronomy 7:1
When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you-

Judges 1:33
Neither did Naphtali drive out those living in Beth Shemesh or Beth Anath; but the Naphtalites too lived among the Canaanite inhabitants of the land, and those living in Beth Shemesh and Beth Anath became forced laborers for them.

So, that's where the Jews disobeyed God. God said to drive the people out of their land, and in another verse I didn't post, God tells them to destroy all the altars to false gods and things like that, which they also didn't do. They forced them into slavery instead.

quote:


quote:

Now, if you read a bunch of the accounts of the Pilgrams, you'll find that many of them write in their letters or journals that they were being told by God to go to the new land and start a new life there. Many founding fathers are quoted as saying that this nation was a divine providence by God Himself.



That would be fine in all except anybody reading american history knows that the Pilgrims were not the first people here, they got here in 1620.

almost 20 years after the first settlers. The Royal London came first and started a colony. History.


That's not the point. It doesn't matter who came first. It matter who was told by God to settle the land. Many, many Pilgrams claim in their journals that they didn't know why, but God told them to come settle here in the new land. The founding fathers also said in their journals and letters that they thought this land was a divine providence from God.

If you'll read the 613 laws given to the Israelites, you'll notice that MANY of them resemble our laws. Especially the ones on murder. The 10 commandments are more moral law than anything else. But the 613 laws in total are more governing laws. Lots of them were directly used by our government when creating out system of laws. You should read this book called "The 5,000 Year Leap." It shows tons of statements by our founding fathers as they created the country, and shows which cultures laws they took their laws from and their philosophy on government in order to create this great nation.

They started out with no law, then gives us the Articles of Confederation... just enough law to keep us from anarchy. Then, that didn't work, so they gave us a tad bit more law in the Constitution, and we became a great nation like that. As more laws were added and morals were lost, our country went down the drain. Some founding fathers are quoted as saying, "This nation is a nation of morals and religion. If we lose those two things, our nation will cease to exist" (paraphrased). It's in that book if you want to read it sometime. Gives a more accurate view of American history by showing actual documentation, actual quotes, and lots of stuff you don't get in history books.

quote:


quote:

Let me explain a little about business and economy. If you have the money to conduct business, then you have the means to conduct it. The African diamond minds were not being mined by the Africans, because they do not have the resources to mine them. They are a poor people. So, since we have wealth, we purchased their diamond minds and hired them to work for us, mining the diamonds, and we pay them with our own money, which puts money into THEIR economy and stimulates it. This brings African's good paying jobs and increases their lifestyles and gives them confidence in providing for their families. It brings money to the neighborhoods, and the taxes from that increased money brings more government money to help build a nicer community for the people. The sales taxes from the spending of that money gives even more money to the neighborhoods. None of that would've happened had we, and other countries, not gone in and spent the money and time and effort to buy and work those mines.



What? we paid wages, No we did'nt!!!! That's a lie. Them diamonds been mined for over 400 years. WE did not pay the Africans until 1991 when Mandela became President. WE paid them out of their money. Wow, let's really look if we would've left them shiny rocks there. What would've happened if we left them there, not slaughtered 1000's for them. What? We would'nt have some stuff to buy, we would'nt have innocent blood on our hands.

Let me see, that would've mean how many less tiaras for Queens. In my book she don't really need them.

What neighborhoods look good in AFrica? Look like they dying by the 1000's now after all our "foriegn aid, Christianity Missionary work, giving them wages for their diamonds, etc if that is help, I hate to see what the other side is!!


Alright, assuming we never paid them till 1991, then, now, they're getting paid, and my economic assessment of the good we're doing is correct.

Had we left the diamonds there after 1991, the people there would not benefit from our desire for the diamonds, and they would not mine them because they do not have the resources. We are not the only country with this "blood on our hands," my friend. MANY countries own diamond mines there. Don't just blame America. Plus, it's not our GOVERNMENT that did that. It's our businesses, just like businesses all over the world. No one needs diamonds, but they are in demand, which means there should be a supply for them. If people work to get them, then we can employ people and pay them so they can make a living and benefit their society and economy positively.

quote:


There are some incorrect assessments in your statement.

**Excerpt from the Declaration of Independence - July 4th, 1776


No your incorrect, read what I wrote, it is not mentioned in the Constitution, you brought up the Declaration of Independence.

Yes, because the Declaration of Independence is the document that this country was founded upon. It is where our founding fathers established their intent to separate and did so. It is the beginning of this country, and is what we are all about. The Constitution states how we run the country, and that is where you can just read the 613 Mosaic Laws in the Old Testament to see how incredibly similar they are to ours.

quote:


quote:

So now this is about slavery as well? There were slaves in the Bible who were Jews and could put themselves into slavery to pay debts. The Jews also enslaved the Cannanites wrongly at that time when they took the Promised Land. It isn't right what our country did in regard to slaves. But we fixed that eventually. The world had a lot of slavery going on, and these men had not yet broken out of it in this country.



So we throw up the slavery of the Israelites to justify our slavery, ok let's really look at that.

Read it again.

Should slaves here do what the Bible says to do? Plunder the Egyptians as they left.


For one, who said that we justified slavery? And second of all, I was showing you how Israel was UNJUSTIFIED in enslaving people, and how we had no right to do it either. Israel enslaved the people in the land of Canaan wrongly. As an Israeli, though, they had the ability to enslave themselves to pay off debts. That's a different kind of slavery. I never said forced slavery was justified. I said it was wrong, and we, just like many other nations in the world, should not have done it. But because everyone else was doing it at the time, we also did it. We FIXED it though. No more slavery here. Let it go!

And Hebrews did not plunder the Egyptians as they left! Do you really think that's what happened? Read it again. The Egyptians PAID the Hebrews to leave! They begged them and paid them to leave, because the enemy must always pay for what they've done to God's people. We are God's beloved, and He protects us and justfly defends us.

quote:


So let's see. let's look around and think about what belonged to or was built by the slaves. Hmmmmm...

Well they could take take the rubber off all the tires, rubber comes from Africa, 1/5 of all the oil comes from Nigeria, cocoa for chocolate, gold, diamonds, all monies earned by cotton, rice, tobacco. How much is that worth?

They also have to get all their inventions, the clothes dryer, the stop light, gas mask, air conditioner, the REal Mccoy, the list is just too long.

Alot of Zoo animals. Let me keeping thinking about it, I'm sure I could come up with tons more.


What was bought honestly, and what was stolen? No way to separate that. And on top of that, African's have had the ability to progress to an industrious first world country instead of staying in a third world state. Some of their cities are modern, and some are not, which proves that point. People make their own destinies. Sometimes they go through hard times depending on location, but they can still choose to change their direction in life, or if they cannot for some reason, they must choose to be content in their current situation and trust the Lord. We should always be content with what we have no matter what the situation. You feel entitled to something for what your ancestors went through. Sorry, but none of us are entitled to anything that we haven't earned right now.

Forget your ancestors; they are not you. What have you earned? Where are you right now? Be content in all you have and be thankful for it instead of complaining, for the Lord is awesome in blessing us with every good thing we have. Paul was in prison and suffering, yet was singing in his joy for the Lord, and said that he was content in all situations because he could do all things through Christ who strengthens him. You sound very discontent, as if you are entitled to something. We're only entitled to what we OURSELVES work for, and nothing more. Nothing else is guaranteed. Be content with what you have and look only on the positive and your life will be much more happy and fulfilling. Negativity attracts negativity. If you are constantly negative and have a negative outlook on the world and life, you'll attract negative things, people and situations into your life. Just let it go and be happy...


quote:

I prefer to read things in context. What you are showing in Revelation is not about future churches. It is about a specific church at that time located in Laodicea. Here's how we know it's not speaking to a church of the future:



You gotta take it into context, Your right! I have read it and reread it, we are that Chruch! Reread you post, you said it just right, look again.


No, we are not that church! You can look at LOTS of churches all over the world and see the same similarities in them! You can find sin in nearly any church in the world. You can find sin in nearly every nation in the world. Most other nations are full of the same sins, if not worse in many instances! Stop demonizing us just because you have a grudge! Open your eyes and look at the rest of the world. You should go live in Africa for a while and learn the politics and learn what they've done. They're definitely not innocent. Aids runs rampant over there because rape and premarital sex run rampant. And if you say America created Aids to kill black people, I'm just going to laugh at the statement. That's absurd.

quote:


But if you do not look honestly, I do not think it goes well. If you look at American history, and think we are great people, we killed , stole, rape, maimed. lied to get what we wanted, but are so great, then that's just not being honest.


I did look at the scripture honestly. I showed you how it is grouped into the part about John being shown things that are happening in his past and present time periods. That church existed in John's present time period. And then, after Jesus spoke about those seven churches, He said NOW He will show John of things that are to come. Therefore, He was not speaking to us. Can we learn a good lesson from what He told those churches? Of course! But it was not specifically FOR US. America is not a church. We are a nation built by men, and we will exhibit the flaws of men like any other country. And as evil men rule and as morally flawed, ill-religious people begin to prosper, the nation will fall. The founding fathers predicted it, and we're seeing it now.

That verse, in context, is about a single church in history, and all we can do is learn from what He told them. That's it. Don't make it about us, though, when it's not. That's incorrect.

quote:


A group of business men for the Royal London Company started this mess. When the slaves went to Egypt, they went to an already powerful kingdom, slaves Built this one!!!


I read alot of articles, from all over, I don't just read one.

I'm the type to search out everything. I love learning! If you got something I don't know, please forward.


Awesome! I'm the same way. I read tons of books and articles and the Bible and history and lots of stuff. I'm constantly learning something because my business gives me freedom to do so. You should send me an email sometime and we can discuss stuff and things we've read.

cephyr13@yahoo.com

quote:


America's Babylon, there ain't NO WAY around it.


If this were the case, then why did God call Mystery Babylon a "city on seven hills" and wearing "red and purple?" Rome is known as the city on seven hills, and the Vatican is in Rome and their cardinals wear red and their bishops wear purple. Rome and the Catholic church teamed up for 1,000 years to create the Holy Roman Empire. It says this Mystery Babylon is drunken with the blood of the saints. America hasn't gone killing Christians. The Catholic church and Rome, though, are both responsible for the most Christian deaths in history. So, why would God mislead us with these identifiers of who Mystery Babylon is? Was He lying? It's important to ask yourself these questions and really see what the Bible says about these things to make sure you've got your information straight before you go teaching it, because you may accidentally be teaching false doctrine that can do a lot of damage to others. I have been guilty of teaching false doctrine in the past, only to find out that the Bible was actually saying something completely different and I didn't realize it. I repented of my false doctrines and teaching others of them, and went to the truth. It's always important to know 100% about things before you teach them in regard to the Bible. :) Have a great day.



cybrjewls -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/6/2008 1:37:58 PM)

'As you believe it will be done to you'.

Like there were no slaves in Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Media, Greece, Rome, the Holy Roman Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the European Empire, and the American Empire, and other modern countries on earth....

I doubt that there were no slaves or bondservants during the days of Noah on earth.

For it is written: They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.

But they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

quote:

America's Babylon, there ain't NO WAY around it.


Believe on Tracy…that will be your reality then.

Bob



tracydolls -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/6/2008 7:04:44 PM)

Cephyr13,


Yada, yada, yada.

You are trying to tell me that we here in america are not one of the Churches, you are further trying to tell me that in the Book of Revelations, written by John, about 90 AD in Patmos , a book about the future is not about the future of the Churches.

I want to get this right.

All Scripture is revelent to the past, present and FUTURE.


ALL SCRIPTURE.


You are also trying to justify our slavery, americas slavery by talking about the Egyptians and Israelites.

Ok. Think about what God did to the Egyptians, killing of the First borns(Passover), the plagues, Dies in the Red Sea.

Where has America paid her price yet? We still believe people are jealous of our beautiful JUNK.

You also debate more as to wheather we bought or sold them. It DOESNT matter.

Here's the verse.

Exo 21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.


America still has her slaves in her hands. She will be caught with them.

Moses brought his people out of Egypt.



tracydolls -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/6/2008 7:25:51 PM)

.prop

I know all the history about different kingdoms having slaves, that's in the Bible, I've read plenty of books, went to alot websites, I researched it out. When I asked the Lord why? about slavery, He gave me the knowledge freely.


quote:

Babylon is the spiritual city that we were called out of to become new creations in Christ to bear good fruit in accordance with the ways of the city called New Jerusalem. We no longer belong to the world, we belong to Christ.



I agree it is spiritual but Babylon was also a physical city, we are in control it too.

We are commanded to come up out of her.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

but here's an interesting verse for you.

Isa 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt, my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.



cybrjewls -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/6/2008 10:00:50 PM)

Greetings! Thank you, kindly, for sharing that verse with me. I see that on the back of American currency are the pyramids, and the washington monument is an obelisk as in Egyptian times.

Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

the fourth was like a flying eagle. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

.prop

I know all the history about different kingdoms having slaves, that's in the Bible, I've read plenty of books, went to alot websites, I researched it out. When I asked the Lord why? about slavery, He gave me the knowledge freely.


quote:

Babylon is the spiritual city that we were called out of to become new creations in Christ to bear good fruit in accordance with the ways of the city called New Jerusalem. We no longer belong to the world, we belong to Christ.



I agree it is spiritual but Babylon was also a physical city, we are in control it too.

We are commanded to come up out of her.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

but here's an intersting verse for you.

Isa 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.



cognitivemagic -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/12/2008 7:51:30 PM)

quote:

Well if you can't accept the historical basis for your thinking then being flippant and suggesting I'm wrong because everyone is fallible on some point or other is about the weakest defense I've ever seen mounted for your argument.


First off, you had suggested that I was Roman Catholic. I'm not.

Second, you made a completely false claim by stating that "for much of the Church age, thinking had stopped with Augustine. The Roman Catholic Church had a policy to prevent change: to preserve the status quo. Just as people were locked into a crude manner of living off the land, the Church has been locked into a set way of looking at the Bible."

I doubt that you've spent any time reading through Church Fathers that post-date St. Augustine; because if you had, then you couldn't possibly, in good conscience, make this claim.

Third, there was no "Roman Catholic Church" until 1054 A.D. There was simply, the Church. And if there was any "suppression" on the part of the Church, it was mainly against heretical and schismatic sects that were anti-Christian.

quote:

One, you do not have to be dispesational to discern a "gap" between the sixty-two 'sevens' and the one 'seven;' Gabriel does that within the verses by listing three things which come between them:

1. The Messiah being cut off.
2. The destruction of the city and the Temple which happened nearly 40 years later
3. War continues until the end - which so far has lasted almost 2000 years.

Two, seeing a "gap" which is naturally included within the text does not mean reverse interpretation whereby one makes the Bible read as they would like it, but taking what is plainly said and applying it within a whole eschatology.

Three, the Rapture is not a theory, but a demonstrable fact of end-time prophecy.


The real crux of dispensational theology is the preposterous claim that there are two peoples of God, Israel and the Church. That is the greatest error of that theology.

And as to the 70 weeks, there is no warrant for extending it out for 40 years to the destruction of Jerusalem, nor into an indefinite period of the distant future. The "abomination the causes desolation", that Daniel 9 speaks of, had already come. Israel had already rejected God and had "Rome" as father, protector and savior. Rome had political, social and religious sovereignty during the ministry of Christ.

So, Israel was already "desolate" by the "abomination" (i.e. Rome). The destruction of the temple 40 years later was merely the mop up job.

And, no, Christianity does not teach "rapture". It teaches resurrection.

Now, I had provided 4 reputable sources that are "amillenial" in their approach. Of course, I could have sited "post-millenial" sources to buttress my claims, since there is much that can be assimilated from guys like Ken Gentry, Gary Demar, Keith Mathison, James Stewart Russell and Loraine Boettner; but I only wanted to show that there are good works of eschatology that aren't premillenial and that make more sense.

I remember trying to read J.O. Buswell's section on eschatology, in his "A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion", and thinking to myself:

"This is completely incoherent. I don't think that Buswell can make sense of this premillenial stuff. How can a man this bright, be so nonsensical when it comes to this view. What's the deal?"

Anyway, I hope somebody out there will see that it's the premillenialists who have tried to squash "alternative" approaches to eschatology; that the poster "Sinner-Saint" has done the very thing that he claims the Roman Catholic Church did after St. Augustine:

"to prevent change: to preserve the status quo."



bob97 -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/13/2008 1:37:08 AM)

Actually was not the first break out of the Catholic Church in 606AD with the crowning of Boniface III as the first universal pope? Prior to that date, the bishop of Rome had authority only over Western Europe.

Bob



Cephyr13 -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/14/2008 4:23:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

You are also trying to justify our slavery, americas slavery by talking about the Egyptians and Israelites.

Ok. Think about what God did to the Egyptians, killing of the First borns(Passover), the plagues, Dies in the Red Sea.

Where has America paid her price yet? We still believe people are jealous of our beautiful JUNK.


No where did I try to justify America's slavery. I simply showed that slavery was present all over the world, yet you only seem to want to tear America down, a country who's gotten rid of slavery. Wonder why that is...

All the major powers back in those times had slaves. Why didn't God send plagues on those other world powers too? It wasn't about slavery. It was because the Hebrews were God's people, and that's how He chose to free them and to get them a lot of money. After the plagues, the Hebrews were paid by the Egyptians to leave. Sounds like it was a smart move on God's part. Had nothing to do with slavery, though. You're twisting scripture to meet your theology it would appear.

Do you believe in Black Liberation Theology? Everything you're expressing is very much in line with it.



eschatologist -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/14/2008 8:01:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cephyr13

These prophecies will show how America is in the Bible.

There are 13 numerical prophecies in the Bible, and three I'm going to show won't make as much sense without the others to back them up and show their legitimacy, but I'll still show them.

I'm going to show three prophecies that are "time, times and half a time prophecies." Two given to the Jews, and one to the Christians. We've been told that time, times and half a time means 3 1/2 years. That's incorrect. First, we must understand the Hebrew saying, so I'll show you another few instances where it's used:

Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man
perceiveth it not.
Job 40:5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea,
twice; but I will proceed no further.
Psa 62:11 God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this;
that power belongeth unto God.

In these sayings, once, twice means: 1 + 1

Therefore, time, times and half a time means: 1 + 1 + 1/2 = 2 1/2

Now, the question is, what does "time" mean? Peter gives Christians that little bit of information.

2 Peter 3:8
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

I like how he says "don't be unaware of this." What's sad is that no one translates it correctly. "Day" in the Greek is "Hemera" in this verse. However, Hemera is not translated as "day" unless in reference to the last day, the Day of the Lord, usually. Otherwise, Hemera is translated as "time." KJV translates hemera to mean "time" 4 times. NASB translates it to me "time" 12 times. They missed this one, though, because it sounds funny. Here's how it's supposed to read:

2 Peter 3:8
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one time is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one time.

So, time = 1,000 years.

Time, times and half a time = 2,500 years

Now, let's check out the prophecies.

Daniel 7:25
25'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

I'm not going to get into the specifics, but this prophecy was given to a Jew, for the Jews, and is about the Jews. In Matthew, the Jews are called the Old Testament saints. Those are the saints being referred to here. We know this prophecy was given to Daniel in 552 BC, so let's add 2,500 years.

-552 BC + 2,500 = 1948 AD The year the Jews became a nation again without anyone else ruling over them

Daniel 12:7
7I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering (or scattering) the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

This prophecy is about the end of all of Daniel's prophecies, which he says starts the time of the end. This prophecy was given in 533 BC according to historians.

-533 BC + 2,500 = 1967 AD (the year the Jews took back their temple mount)

So the "time of the Gentiles" meant the time that the Gentiles ruled the temple mount. And the time of the end starts at the end of the time of the Gentiles.

Now, for the prophecy given to Christians in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:14
14But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

When Ephraim, also called Israel, which is the 10 northern tribes, split from Judah (the southern two tribes), Ephraim/Israel ended up getting taken captive by Assyria and dispersed into the world, never to be heard from again. Historians place this in 724 BC. Let's add 2,500 years to that.

-724 BC + 2,500 = 1776 AD (The year the United States became a nation)

We're told that Ephriam will tremble from the West, will be planted in a pleasant place, will be protected by waters, that her history is only half over, and that she will bring her children to the destroyer (abortion? or war?). Israel had 12 tribes that split into 13 tribes because the tribe of Jacob split into Ephraim and Menasseh. We had 12 colonies that split Carolina into North and South, making our original 13 colonies. 13 is oddly enough the number of the Trinity: 1 in 3 = 13. We have 13 stripes on our flag for our 13 colonies. The Levites had 48 cities given to them throughout Israel so they, the priests, could give sacrifices. We were given 48 contiguous states, and from 1917 to 1959, we displayed 48 stars on our flag due to this. The two things we had in common with old Israel we just happened to display on our flag. Interesting cooindicence.

One last thing. The two witnesses are identified in Revelation 11. It says they are the two lampstands and the two olive trees before the throne of God. So, when you look in Revelation 1:20, you see that lampstands are defined as churches. And in Romans we see that the wild olive tree is the Christian/Gentile church, and the original olive tree is the Jewish church, of which the Christian church is being grafted into. So, the two witnesses are the Christian and Jewish churches. That's why these two 2,500 year prophecies are about The Jews, the Christians, and the temple mount both of them used to use before 724 BC when both were still known as Israel.

Pretty weird, eh? There are 10 other numerical prophecies that all come out dead on accurate like they're supposed to. Many in Daniel and some in Revelation. Here's the book they're found in:

www.ellisskolfield.com (click on Books & Essays, then click on The False Prophet Chapters 1-9)

Great book. Irrefutable. He's dead on accurate and it kills everyone else's prophecy interpretations. It makes a TON of sense too when you see these prophetic fulfillments. Hope this helps.


I didn't read your whole thread but I would like to make a correction. The term "Time, times and Half a time does mean 3 1/2 years.

You said it like this 1+1+1/2==2 1/2.
But the second time[b]s is plural, so what it says here is 1time+2times+1/2= 3 1/2.

We can also confirm that this means 3 1/2 years simply by looking at it in context with other scriptures. Revelations 12:14 says that the church flees into the wilderness where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (The devil)
Before that in Revelations 12:6 it says the same thing basically, but it uses the term one thousand two hundred and threescore days. And the woman (the church) fled into the wilderness wherer she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days. (3 1/2 years)

All of these refer to the time period of the great tribulation: 3 1/2 years

Here's another one: Rev. 13:5: And their was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and 2 months. (3 1/2 years).

see also revelations 11:3

1 time +2 times+1/2 of a time= 3 1/2



Midwest -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/14/2008 9:46:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eschatologist
I didn't read your whole thread but I would like to make a correction. The term "Time, times and Half a time does mean 3 1/2 years.

You said it like this 1+1+1/2==2 1/2.
But the second time[b]s is plural, so what it says here is 1time+2times+1/2= 3 1/2.

We can also confirm that this means 3 1/2 years simply by looking at it in context with other scriptures. Revelations 12:14 says that the church flees into the wilderness where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (The devil)
Before that in Revelations 12:6 it says the same thing basically, but it uses the term one thousand two hundred and threescore days. And the woman (the church) fled into the wilderness wherer she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days. (3 1/2 years)

All of these refer to the time period of the great tribulation: 3 1/2 years

Here's another one: Rev. 13:5: And their was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and 2 months. (3 1/2 years).

see also revelations 11:3

1 time +2 times+1/2 of a time= 3 1/2


JMHO but it might be worth considering that time, times and a half is 2-1/2. As is true of English, Hebrew is full of idiomatic language. For instance, the Hebrew idiom "cut off" means to kill. "Ate the pieces of" means to bring malicious accusations against, and so on. Is "time, times, and the dividing of a time" also an idiom? Looks like some Hebrew scholars say it is. Some Hebrew Scholars say their grammar does not support 3 -1/2 times as the correct translation for this idiom. We can clearly see this when we look at how the phrase "time, times, and an half" from Dan12:7 is translated in some English translations of the Tanach:

Dan12:7. And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [two] times and a half, and when they have ended shattering the strength of the holy people, all these will end.



tracydolls -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/15/2008 10:21:59 AM)

quote:

No where did I try to justify America's slavery. I simply showed that slavery was present all over the world, yet you only seem to want to tear America down, a country who's gotten rid of slavery. Wonder why that is...

All the major powers back in those times had slaves. Why didn't God send plagues on those other world powers too? It wasn't about slavery. It was because the Hebrews were God's people, and that's how He chose to free them and to get them a lot of money. After the plagues, the Hebrews were paid by the Egyptians to leave. Sounds like it was a smart move on God's part. Had nothing to do with slavery, though. You're twisting scripture to meet your theology it would appear.

Do you believe in Black Liberation Theology? Everything you're expressing is very much in line with it.



No not at all, don't like BLO.

Again, you say we got rid of slavery again, I post the verse,

Exo 21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

Slaves decendents still live in america. Agains, Moses brought his people out of Egypt.


Just think if America would do as the Bible and "pay" their slaves.



Midwest -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/15/2008 11:08:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls
America's Babylon, there ain't NO WAY around it.


America is not Babylon. Babylon can not be limited to a single continent, nor can it be can be constrained by time:

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The verse says the blood of ALL slain upon the earth. This goes back at least as far as when Cain slew Able, doesn't it? So how does this apply to America only?

JMHO I believe that Babylon, then, represents the often murderous, material greed driven nature of mankind, personal and government etc., trapped by the things of this world, Satan's stuff, to the person's personal condemnation, throughout the history of mankind.


quote:

Slaves decendents still live in america. Agains, Moses brought his people out of Egypt.


But the descendants are not slaves, and those descendants are free to leave if they choose. To the best of my knowledge no one is forcing the descendants of the slaves to stay in America (JMHO they are probably better off in America then many of the countries their ancestors were taken from.)
You said it was Moses who brought his people out of Egypt. So why didn't one of the slaves take his people out of America?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Just think if America would do as the Bible and "pay" their slaves.


To the best of my knowledge there are not any slaves in America to pay. All those who were involved in slavery in America have been dead for quite some time so just out of curiosity in your opinion who should pay and who should they pay it to? Hard to pay those who are already dead. What do you propose we do dig up their graves and stick a check in their coffin?



tracydolls -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/17/2008 10:02:43 AM)

quote:

America is not Babylon. Babylon can not be limited to a single continent, nor can it be can be constrained by time:



Babylon is kingdoms, some in the past.



Midwest -> RE: Finding America in Bible Prophecy (4/17/2008 1:01:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

quote:

America is not Babylon. Babylon can not be limited to a single continent, nor can it be can be constrained by time:



Babylon is kingdoms, some in the past.



Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

These verses tell us Babylon rides the scarlet beast. Doesn't the Bible tell us beasts are kingdoms? (Dan 7:23 "Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth...")

If Babylon is a kingdom as you say then how does a kingdom ride another kingdom? When I say a beast is a kingdom I can show a verse that says a beast is a kingdom (Dan 7:23 "Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth...") can you show a verse that says Babylon is a kingdom? If not then why do you say Babylon is a kingdom?

I see you did not answer any questions I asked in my earlier post, any chance that would you be kind enough to provide answers to the questions that were asked about the statements you made? Thanks



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