What can we do???? (Full Version)

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Solus_Christus -> What can we do???? (3/20/2008 2:36:05 PM)

This isn't meant to be judgmental of anyone or anything, so try to see what I mean, not just jump to conclusions. Today I was finalizing my plan for what to do at our youth group this Friday, it's going to be a communion service so I went to look up communion on this site. To my chagrin, most of the results on the first page or two were political commentaries and outlines for who shouldn't be allowed to take communion. This alone doesn't mean much I suppose but put in a larger context of North American dialogs regarding Christianity, I am presented with an image of a church that is more concerned with forcing an outward appearance of righteousness on the populous instead of reaching out to show a God of love. I understand that there is probably (hopefully?) more Christians out there that are more concerned for with, for instance, showing homosexuals God's love, rather than making sure they know we don't approve. God accepts everyone, liars, adulterers, gossips, and homosexuals, just to name a few. So why is the image being presented one of exclusion instead of inclusion? I'm not saying we should accept people's sin, but we should accept people. So being as I'm going to assume that most people would agree with me, and feel free to tell me if you don't and why, how do we change the world's perception of the church, and by extension, God? What can we do?



doinkdom -> RE: What can we do???? (3/20/2008 2:58:56 PM)

I get what you're saying for sure.

But then I thought of this...this site is "mostly" Christians - those already professing Christ and there is actually a standard of behavior for us as Christians.

Sometimes I have to remember that people here are trying to walk out a virtual community by holding one another to that Christian standard - just like we do in real life. Because it is virtual, it makes it a little bit more difficult, but many here are committed to it and it has become their personal ministry.

Maybe if we would consider that more than us Christians come in here to read, we might show one another a tad more grace with our postings and responses.

A gentle reproof is much easier to swallow and learn from than a slap to the forehead with the KJV bible. [;)]



delete123 -> RE: What can we do???? (3/20/2008 3:05:50 PM)

This myself never understood as some churches actually have what they call: Closed communions (only for membership) and there are other churches which allow anyone who believes to participate.

I find it funny of their "doctrines" where Jesus was open to all and all who would accept Him.

Maybe they are "reserving" the right to likemindness, either way it all seems a shallow practice at best.

CRH



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: What can we do???? (3/20/2008 5:24:09 PM)

Solus,

I understand that some churches can be uninviting--but church is not the place for unbelievers, it is the place for believers. The church (Christians), are suppose to go out into the highways and the byways (everyday life) and preach the gospel, and tell the good news (recruit).

God does not accept everyone. He forgives all who ask and repent. Acceptance happens AFTER we repent. We are then accepted in the Beloved. To suggest otherwise, would be to misrepresent the faith. God is holy, He cannot even look at sin--the only way He looks at those who repent, is because of the cleansing work of the shed blood of Christ.

You wrote:
quote:

God accepts everyone, liars, adulterers, gossips, and homosexuals, just to name a few. So why is the image being presented one of exclusion instead of inclusion? I'm not saying we should accept people's sin, but we should accept people. So being as I'm going to assume that most people would agree with me, and feel free to tell me if you don't and why, how do we change the world's perception of the church, and by extension, God? What can we do?

This sounds good, but is not biblical or doable. The Bible teaches very specifically that the World hated Jesus and as His servants we (the Church) will be hated, for we are not greater than our Lord. We cannot, nor should we try to change the perception the World has of the church . . . and I will tell you why: The world is blind. They cannot see. Their perception is distorted--it is dark. The only way to change their perception, for them to recieve Christ. Then they can see.

I think it is our duty to represent the Gospel exactly how Jesus Christ did. He did not sugar coat things. He told us that if we followed Him, there would be a cross we would have to bear. We would be hated and persecuted. We would have difficulty. Without spelling this out explicitly, we set people up for a great falling away--because when persecution arises and trouble--men are offended in Christ and fall away. I think the sower is a great parable and it is worth reading. We have to present the gospel according to our Lord.

I think our methods and Jesus Christ's methods are very different:

When Jesus called people to follow Him, He said, "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

When we call people to follow Him we say, "Jesus loves you, God will heal you, prosper you, hang around church so that you can learn more about this and make a decision about Christ.

When someone rejected the gospel, Jesus said, "shake the dusts off of your feet."

When someone rejects the gospel, we say, "Well, at least come to a few more services, read this cool book"

The Church is exclusive, forgiveness is not.

Let's follow God's example.



Liveloved -> RE: What can we do???? (3/20/2008 6:57:32 PM)

quote:

So being as I'm going to assume that most people would agree with me, and feel free to tell me if you don't and why, how do we change the world's perception of the church, and by extension, God? What can we do?


Live love.

I'm not screaming. . .but I am greatly emphasizing what Jesus lived and emphasized. This is the missing message of much of the church. And I find that alot of people who want to express themselves with words, are short on love. It truly is a heart problem. And I know because I know me and my heart!

I don't want to point out others' sin. I want to point out MY sin and live truthfully, repentantly, and transparently and, yes, LOVINGLY amidst the lost world. I take some flack (?) from the Christian community I live in but I am willing to live Jesus' love to the lost in this world. And I need all of the Lord's help.

Thanks for asking such a good question. [:)]



GroupW -> RE: What can we do???? (3/20/2008 7:06:24 PM)

Maybe a little off topic, but related. We're dealing with a communion issue as well.

My son has expressed a faith in Christ (8 yrs old) and has an age-appropriate understanding and a clear heart for God. Yet, our denomination doesn't formally approve of younger children taking communion.

When I look at Christs words - "Let the children come to me, and don't forbid them, for of such is the kindom of Heaven (my paraphrase)" - I have trouble telling him why I can't let him take communion right along with us. My role as a church member conflicts with my responsibility as a dad & my understanding of the heart of Christ. Given the choice, I'd much rather be a good dad than a good church member.

For now, we're letting him join in communion discretely. We get the odd dirty look but I'm going to wait until someone objects, and then we'll discuss it. Until then, I'm letting Christ's words be the rule and choosing to be a good dad. It's the old adage - sometimes its easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

So, yes - a good question and a potentially fun thread to discuss. Thank you!

BT



SonInMe1 -> RE: What can we do???? (3/20/2008 8:45:36 PM)

I do not believe we can take communion with unresolved sin in our hearts...eh?



x_SoliDeoGloria_x -> RE: What can we do???? (3/20/2008 9:24:30 PM)

My church has decided that it is better to err on the side of being too inclusive than too exclusive. We invite sinners to commune. Otherwise no one could receive communion. We leave it up to each sinner and God to decide whether they are "sufficiently repentant." There is a teenager who is mentally retarded as well as several toddlers (at their parents' request) who commune. Some might argue that they shouldn't be offered communion because they don't fully understand what it means, but then again who does?



Dancre -> RE: What can we do???? (3/20/2008 9:29:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Solus_Christus

This isn't meant to be judgmental of anyone or anything, so try to see what I mean, not just jump to conclusions. Today I was finalizing my plan for what to do at our youth group this Friday, it's going to be a communion service so I went to look up communion on this site. To my chagrin, most of the results on the first page or two were political commentaries and outlines for who shouldn't be allowed to take communion. This alone doesn't mean much I suppose but put in a larger context of North American dialogs regarding Christianity, I am presented with an image of a church that is more concerned with forcing an outward appearance of righteousness on the populous instead of reaching out to show a God of love. I understand that there is probably (hopefully?) more Christians out there that are more concerned for with, for instance, showing homosexuals God's love, rather than making sure they know we don't approve. God accepts everyone, liars, adulterers, gossips, and homosexuals, just to name a few. So why is the image being presented one of exclusion instead of inclusion? I'm not saying we should accept people's sin, but we should accept people. So being as I'm going to assume that most people would agree with me, and feel free to tell me if you don't and why, how do we change the world's perception of the church, and by extension, God? What can we do?


Well, the thing to do is pray that God will change people's hearts. Unless you are planning to become the dictator of the world, there's little you can do except pray.

kim



CherishedbyGod -> RE: What can we do???? (3/20/2008 9:50:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Solus_Christus

I'm not saying we should accept people's sin, but we should accept people. So being as I'm going to assume that most people would agree with me, and feel free to tell me if you don't and why, how do we change the world's perception of the church, and by extension, God? What can we do?


I totally agree with you. If one studies the Jesus of the Gospels, He spent most of His time with sinners, the outcasts, lepers (leprosy representing sin), the tax collectors and, basically people that others rejected.

Jesus does not accept sin but He loves the sinners.

What can we do. Learn about Jesus, study Him, be filled with His Holy Spirit, love these desperately needy people as He loved them, take time with them and let Jesus live His life through us to a world so desperately in need.

If they do not see Jesus in us, who will reflect Jesus to them? And, I think that is a hugh problem with the church today.

Here is a song that I think expresses what you are trying to communicate so well. When you get to the website, please click on and listen to the song "My Jesus"

Blessings for your tender heart and concern!

http://www.myspace.com/toddagnew



terryjohn -> RE: What can we do???? (3/22/2008 2:39:11 PM)

The Church in some way must present an exclusive face least it appear to be of the world and I guess it should be even more exculsive and have men fear to join it if it were really the body of Christ. For what would the church be if evey unrepenting sinner felt at home in it?

The Church and faith demand much which men are unwilling to give and so far from the church presenting an exclusive face, unbelieving and stuborne men refuse to bow to the truth and come in to the light that would expose them for what they are.



4IMPersuaded -> RE: What can we do???? (3/22/2008 6:40:57 PM)

LiveLoved is absolutely correct. We were not sent into the world to judge the world, but to be lampstands... To shine the Light. Jesus didn't say, "I am the light of the world", He said, "YOU are the light of the world." God is the judge and Jesus "lives to intercede" for us.

So the answer to your question is to love. Jesus came into the world to die for us while we were yet sinners. To imply that we cannot be inclusive until someone repents is not biblical and flies in the face of the Gospel. God is a God of pursuit. He pursues a relationship with each human being and it is His to judge when to stop pursuing. Yes, if someone isn't interested, we should "shake the dust from our feet" but that doesn't mean to quit shining the light on them.

Jesus was inclusive-- it was the Pharisees who were exclusive. You are right to invite all of your kids to the comunion table. You are also called to impress upon them the reality of what it means to take of the bread ad the cup. God is a God of high standards, but it is tempered with great mercy. Remember what Paul said when chosing between faith, hope and lvoe-- the greatest of these is love.

God Bless



Solus_Christus -> RE: What can we do???? (3/25/2008 1:06:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: terryjohn

The Church in some way must present an exclusive face least it appear to be of the world and I guess it should be even more exculsive and have men fear to join it if it were really the body of Christ. For what would the church be if evey unrepenting sinner felt at home in it?

The Church and faith demand much which men are unwilling to give and so far from the church presenting an exclusive face, unbelieving and stuborne men refuse to bow to the truth and come in to the light that would expose them for what they are.


While I agree with your obviously strong view of the holiness of God, I make for myself a very clear distinction between God and myself or the church. What would the church be if every unrepentant sinner felt at home in it? Completely different. What would it be like if anyone could walk into any church and feel accepted, loved, and cared for? I think it would look very much like when Jesus sat with sinners and ate, or talked to an adulterous woman, or befriended a corrupt government official. There are verses on expelling immoral brothers, but that is only after they have been accepted in the first place, and only to prevent them leading others off the right path. The Israelites made the same mistake many Christians make today; because they were the chosen people they perceived there purpose as becoming exclusive, and ultimately failed in what God called them to do. Accepting everyone in our churches does not mean adding them to the Body, as only a relationship with Christ can do that. Rather I speak of a feeling of acceptance, one that all look for. Again this weekend I saw on the news the people protesting soldiers funerals, carrying signs saying 'God Hates ****s' and 'God Bless IEDs'. There is a very loud voice drowning out the truth of who God is, what can we actually, realistically do to make the true voice of Christ louder?



rcjames -> RE: What can we do???? (3/25/2008 2:11:03 PM)

At our Church everyone is welcome to take communion.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Solus_Christus
God accepts everyone, liars, adulterers, gossips, and homosexuals, just to name a few.


I will disagree with the above statement.

God accepts ex-liars, ex-adulterers, ex-gossips, and ex-homosexuals.

In the first sermon of the Church delivered by Peter this question was ask;

(Act 2:37) And hearing this, they were stabbed in the heart, and said to Peter and to the other apostles, Men, brothers, what shall we do?

And the answer to how one may become a child of God was;

(Act 2:38) Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Let's not get so politically correct and forget that recieving the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit, and becoming a child of God is dependant on Repentance.

Thanks
RC



charlotte123 -> RE: What can we do???? (3/25/2008 3:36:09 PM)

I feel like it is our job to love. God loves everyone, but hates sin and will eventually cast all unredeemed sinners into eternal damnation. That's not popular with sinners. But that's biblical. We do a terrible thing to the unredeemed sinner if we don't tell the whole truth. There are a lot of unsaved people in church living in the same sin they were before they heard the gospel. And that's not salvation. True salvation is followed by obedience to the will of God. And true salvation only comes after one is convicted of his sin.



Liveloved -> RE: What can we do???? (3/25/2008 7:27:53 PM)

quote:

And true salvation only comes after one is convicted of his sin.


This is so true, Charlotte. The problem that I see in regard to the OP and the 'image of the Christian' is that we present an image of a one time conviction of sin and we're in, instead of an ongoing, living out repentant life which is the true Spirit-filled life. God's word is to be living and active in me and people need to see Him working, speaking, convicting and changing me---one who calls herself a Christian. It is a humble life of love and thankfulness for Jesus' great love and mercy to me and then a life of love for others to come to know Him as their Savior as well.



growingseed -> RE: What can we do???? (3/25/2008 7:42:23 PM)

I believe that Jesus stated that his church, were made up of sinners who have repented and turned they're hearts over to Jesus himself. The women at the well asked where this church was and he replied that we must worship the father in spirit and in truth. The church as i know is made up of believers and is being built in the spirit, i go to church but it's not the building it's the fact that we are suppose to be together in thought that we are apart of his spiritual church. When you look at the church as we go to church here, it's mans version of what being on the vine is all about, but it's an institution. Time has away of revealing truths with in the spirit. But Jesus's church is getting ready to depart.



SonInMe1 -> RE: What can we do???? (3/25/2008 8:55:03 PM)

There are no perfect christians.

There are christians being perfected.

If you claim sinless perfection, you are sinning.

If you proclaim perfection as a christian you are a hypocrit.

If you proclaim and have confidence in the Lord to handle and deal with your imperfections, to understand the reason why the bible talks about forgiveness, sanctification and repentence is because God knws we are imperfect and has made a way to deal with our imperfections, then, you have the love of Christ in you.

I have no problem with preaching confidence in the word of God or preaching holy behavior because that IS the standard, but reality is, no christian is perfect or ever will be this side of heaven.



jbow -> RE: What can we do???? (3/25/2008 9:02:11 PM)

quote:

I understand that some churches can be uninviting--but church is not the place for unbelievers, it is the place for believers.



That is correct!! In our church the pastor tells everyone before communion, (which we have twice a month), that it is for believers only. We leave it to the individual at that point.

J



SonInMe1 -> RE: What can we do???? (3/25/2008 9:06:14 PM)

the church is not a place for unbelievers.....I could not disagree more.

What is the sence of having a church if not outreach and evangilism? Do people walk into your church all saved and sanctified or do you just steal people from other churches?

Amazing. A good church can feed the flock and reach the unsaved. Its not that hard, we do it all the time.



terryjohn -> RE: What can we do???? (3/26/2008 4:03:40 AM)

Church is for beleivers and worship it is not about us. In fact Paul talks about throwing certian people out of the church for their unbelief. Hence, the exclusiveness of the church must be a direct result of its love for and faith in Christ. The one thing Christ did not do was drag every unbeleiving soul He could find in to the temple, in fact, Christ Himself drove many of them out for their unbelief.

Holiness then means nothing when you take that which was holy and put it into unbelieving hands. History has shown that the church has and will always cast her pearls before swine only to have them turn on her. Nevertheless, we need not be ashamed of pleasing God rather then men in our services. But by all means go into the market place and show the drunks and addicts the love of Christ for in truth that is exactly what Christ did.



SonInMe1 -> RE: What can we do???? (3/26/2008 8:07:23 AM)

Amazing



jbow -> RE: What can we do???? (3/26/2008 8:29:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: terryjohn

Church is for beleivers and worship it is not about us. In fact Paul talks about throwing certian people out of the church for their unbelief. Hence, the exclusiveness of the church must be a direct result of its love for and faith in Christ. The one thing Christ did not do was drag every unbeleiving soul He could find in to the temple, in fact, Christ Himself drove many of them out for their unbelief.

Holiness then means nothing when you take that which was holy and put it into unbelieving hands. History has shown that the church has and will always cast her pearls before swine only to have them turn on her. Nevertheless, we need not be ashamed of pleasing God rather then men in our services. But by all means go into the market place and show the drunks and addicts the love of Christ for in truth that is exactly what Christ did.


I agree. Evangelism is what the saints are equipped to do in church, it is not what the church service is for. The church is by definition a group of believers.

J



jbow -> RE: What can we do???? (3/26/2008 8:34:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: growingseed

I believe that Jesus stated that his church, were made up of sinners who have repented and turned they're hearts over to Jesus himself. The women at the well asked where this church was and he replied that we must worship the father in spirit and in truth. The church as i know is made up of believers and is being built in the spirit, i go to church but it's not the building it's the fact that we are suppose to be together in thought that we are apart of his spiritual church. When you look at the church as we go to church here, it's mans version of what being on the vine is all about, but it's an institution. Time has away of revealing truths with in the spirit. But Jesus's church is getting ready to depart.


Yes, but we are told to not forsake the gathering of ourselves together... and this is what we are referring to as the "church", the gathering of believers not buildings. We just usually gather in buildings.

J



A_crucified_man -> RE: What can we do???? (3/26/2008 9:17:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbow

quote:

I understand that some churches can be uninviting--but church is not the place for unbelievers, it is the place for believers.



That is correct!! In our church the pastor tells everyone before communion, (which we have twice a month), that it is for believers only. We leave it to the individual at that point.

J


Correct! Communion is an ordinance given by the Lord (same as water baptism) and is for believers only.

OP, it sounds like you don't understand Scripture as it concerns communion and are forcing your personal desires into the situation with respect to winning the lost - communion doesn't save, preaching Christ and Him crucified saves.



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