RE: What can we do???? (Full Version)

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Kat_D -> RE: What can we do???? (3/26/2008 9:33:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Solus_Christus

This isn't meant to be judgmental of anyone or anything, so try to see what I mean, not just jump to conclusions. Today I was finalizing my plan for what to do at our youth group this Friday, it's going to be a communion service so I went to look up communion on this site. To my chagrin, most of the results on the first page or two were political commentaries and outlines for who shouldn't be allowed to take communion. This alone doesn't mean much I suppose but put in a larger context of North American dialogs regarding Christianity, I am presented with an image of a church that is more concerned with forcing an outward appearance of righteousness on the populous instead of reaching out to show a God of love. I understand that there is probably (hopefully?) more Christians out there that are more concerned for with, for instance, showing homosexuals God's love, rather than making sure they know we don't approve. God accepts everyone, liars, adulterers, gossips, and homosexuals, just to name a few. So why is the image being presented one of exclusion instead of inclusion? I'm not saying we should accept people's sin, but we should accept people. So being as I'm going to assume that most people would agree with me, and feel free to tell me if you don't and why, how do we change the world's perception of the church, and by extension, God? What can we do?


You are talking about two separate things here:

1. Who should and should not partake in communion and the bible is clear about that:

24 "and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes. 27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body." -I Corinthians 11

2. The acceptance of sinners in the church:

While I believe the church should welcome sinners, I do not believe that sinners should be allowed by the church to continue in that sin unchecked for unlimited amounts of time. If you are attending church and have heard the Good News of Jesus Christ, and choose not to repent and accept Him, but choose instead to continue in your sin and still attend church each week, that should not be. God does accept homosexuals, liars, and adulterers, but once they know the Truth and can be set free, I believe He expects them to act on it.

10 "When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?" 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more." -John 8



Solus_Christus -> RE: What can we do???? (3/26/2008 5:50:14 PM)

I'm sorry I didn't clarify earlier. I am talking about two different things. Communion is for believers only, that much is undeniably true. The example of communion was one that I gave because it started this question in my mind. Also, to me it is not a question of whether church is for us or for everyone. The church is obviously for the lost, as we are the witness to the world. The importance of building up and supporting fellow Christians is also undeniable, but not at the cost of closing the doors to everyone else. I'd also like to ask a more pointed question. Almost every time I see Christianity mentioned in the news or media it is in a negative, nutty way. I understand that this is largely due to the fact that nutty, negative Christians make better TV, and that the world hates Christ and therefore us, but how can we overcome this growing public image. I sometimes look at it as though I was in charge of another group, just a secular club of people coming together, if my public image was taking such a beating what could I do to save it? I operate under a strong sense of responsibility, that's just who I am, and I feel strongly responsible for what all who call themselves Christians are saying and doing in the name of God. Responsible, no matter if I agree with them or not. So, being responsible how do I turn it around? Think big picture................



Kat_D -> RE: What can we do???? (3/26/2008 6:57:23 PM)

quote:

I'd also like to ask a more pointed question. Almost every time I see Christianity mentioned in the news or media it is in a negative, nutty way. I understand that this is largely due to the fact that nutty, negative Christians make better TV, and that the world hates Christ and therefore us, but how can we overcome this growing public image.


You can't overcome it. Christ told us it would be this way...

18 "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, 'They hated Me without a cause.' -John 15

I don't care if the world doesn't like me...I'm in the best company there is.

ETA: something I forgot![;)]



DrivenbyGod -> RE: What can we do???? (3/26/2008 10:28:13 PM)

quote:

the church is not a place for unbelievers.....I could not disagree more.

What is the sence of having a church if not outreach and evangilism? Do people walk into your church all saved and sanctified or do you just steal people from other churches?

Amazing. A good church can feed the flock and reach the unsaved. Its not that hard, we do it all the time.


The church is a place to bring unbelievers for repentance, by sharing the gospel, but they should not be taking communion.



DrivenbyGod -> RE: What can we do???? (3/26/2008 10:35:27 PM)

quote:

You can't overcome it. Christ told us it would be this way...

18 "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, 'They hated Me without a cause.' -John 15

I don't care if the world doesn't like me...I'm in the best company there is.

ETA: something I forgot!


Yes, I agree.

Although, some TV ministers do make Christians look like idiots, by what they do and preach and unfortunately the only thing we can do is not listen/attend or tithe to their ministries -- but of course there will be some that will and keep them in business..



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: What can we do???? (4/20/2008 12:02:29 AM)

totalfaith,

quote:

The church is a place to bring unbelievers for repentance, by sharing the gospel, but they should not be taking communion.


This is incorrect. God sent us out into the world to bring unbelievers to repentance.

I once attended a church where they encouraged EVERYONE to take communion, including unbelievers. Every first sunday, I literally crawled in my skin as I watched many clueless gulp down their wine and munch on their unleavened bread. It was horrific sitting their watching all of this knowning about 1 Cor 11:24-29. Ugh.[&o] Needless to say, I do not go there anymore.



SonInMe1 -> RE: What can we do???? (4/20/2008 12:48:06 AM)

quote:

God sent us out into the world to bring unbelievers to repentance.


Kinda thought that was God's job? We can introduce people to the Lord in a number of ways...but repentence?

I agree that not only should the unsaved not take communion, but those saved people with grudges too.



missleyna -> RE: What can we do???? (4/24/2008 10:56:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Solus_Christus

This isn't meant to be judgmental of anyone or anything, so try to see what I mean, not just jump to conclusions. Today I was finalizing my plan for what to do at our youth group this Friday, it's going to be a communion service so I went to look up communion on this site. To my chagrin, most of the results on the first page or two were political commentaries and outlines for who shouldn't be allowed to take communion. This alone doesn't mean much I suppose but put in a larger context of North American dialogs regarding Christianity, I am presented with an image of a church that is more concerned with forcing an outward appearance of righteousness on the populous instead of reaching out to show a God of love. I understand that there is probably (hopefully?) more Christians out there that are more concerned for with, for instance, showing homosexuals God's love, rather than making sure they know we don't approve. God accepts everyone, liars, adulterers, gossips, and homosexuals, just to name a few. So why is the image being presented one of exclusion instead of inclusion? I'm not saying we should accept people's sin, but we should accept people. So being as I'm going to assume that most people would agree with me, and feel free to tell me if you don't and why, how do we change the world's perception of the church, and by extension, God? What can we do?



I just read a book, "UnChristian" by David Kinneman - it addressed this problem and it was very inspiring! It was actually what opened my eyes and helped lead me to dedicating my life to Jesus (I was raised Catholic and never understood 'born again' until I read this book! Nobody I met could ever explain it to me without preaching my impending demise!) It definitely addresses alot of the issues in the church and offers some suggestions for change and for going back to a biblical focus.



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: What can we do???? (4/25/2008 1:59:39 PM)

I'm sorry, I kinda missed part of the discussion here.

4Impersuaded:

quote:

To imply that we cannot be inclusive until someone repents is not biblical and flies in the face of the Gospel. God is a God of pursuit.


Inclusive in what way? An individual who has not repented is not suppose to be coming to church every sunday and on wednesday night. From what I've seen, unrepentant people who get "churched" just learn how to "act" Christian and never truly meet Christ. This is not to say that we cannot interact with them outside of church, invite them for dinner, etc. etc. but we are doing it with the specific purpose of presenting the gospel. Church by definition is not inclusive of unbelievers, it is composed of believers.

liveloved:

quote:

This is so true, Charlotte. The problem that I see in regard to the OP and the 'image of the Christian' is that we present an image of a one time conviction of sin and we're in, instead of an ongoing, living out repentant life which is the true Spirit-filled life
But there is a one-time conversion to Christ. It comes from repentance of a a sinful lifestyle and a determination to follow Christ. It is a definite, concrete moment when you actually make a decision, repent, and follow Jesus. All of the little slip ups and sins along the way AFTER your conversion also require being repented of, but CONVERSION is first and necessary. It is a decision. Billy Graham is rather good about preaching this in his evangelism; I think that's why people actually get saved when he preaches.

SonInMe,

quote:

Kinda thought that was God's job? We can introduce people to the Lord in a number of ways...but repentence?
Perhaps I worded that wrong, but the meaning stands. WE are to go out into the world and tell others about the Gospel. The church is to equip us and build us for the WORK OF MINISTERY. We proclaim, God does the convicting. Let me share a scripture with you. In Matt 4:17, Matt 10:7, Matt 10:27, Mark 1:38, Mark 3:14, Mark: 16:15, Luke 9:2, Luke 9:60, Acts 10:42 and more! It is OUR duty to proclaim the gospel. What we know is church is the fellowship of BRETHEREN. Those who believe in Him. If an unbeliever comes among us when we are gathered, he/she should be convicted.

Romans 10:12-21
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." F44 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, F45 Who bring glad tidings of good things!"

Look at what it says! Someone is suppose to go out and preach to the unbelievers--and that's US. And I'll say, the unbelievers who never set foot in church are perhaps MOST likely to repent and recieve Christ. Because they are not full of the doctrine of men nor have they learned how to "fake nice Christian."

Yes, the Bible says let your light so shine that other men see it and GLORIFY God. Not necessarily repent. Preaching the gospel leads people to consider the Word of God, and be convicted and repent.

I think its amazing that christians believe that "love is all you need." To draw in an unbeliever. I'm amazed, because the Bible doesn't say that. It's a combination of things and our number one tool to reach out to unbelievers is not "niceness" or "loving on" them, it's preaching the Gospel of repentance and forgiveness through Christ. It is a watered down gospel that does NOT tell believers to go out into the world and preach.

The established church is doing ALL of the work for us, so much to the point that we think it's the "clergy's" job to preach to the lost. No, that's OUR job. God called us all! We are all appointed to ministry. Not just a few degreed individuals who stand at a pulpit on Sunday. We should be actively involved in the ministry of reconcilliation.

I am speaking to myself first of all, because sometimes I do get lax about preaching the gospel to unbelievers. That's what God wants me to do!

And the christian's job is NOT to get people to like us, or see is in a positive light, but to bring the gospel to as many men as possible. God's intent is that all should have the opportunity to repent. The end will not come until the gospel is preached to all of the earth, and we are a part of that end time work. Please read Matthew 10:16-42. Jesus outlined our mission while He was on earth. Jesus Christ corrected any bleeding hearts who thought that He'd come to bring sweetness and candy when he said:
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' F46 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. -- Matthew 34-39

There is a thread in Men Only which asks whether church is too feminine. I'm certaily beginning to understand their complaint. Maybe it's too unrealistically blase and utopian. What about this aspect of Jesus Christ? He didn't come to bring little white lambs leaping over fences and fat cherub babies playing harps, "They will come to Jesus because they see our love! We'll love'em into heaven!" Ahhh. That's not the Jesus Christ of the Bible. He certainly believed in Love, but not what we have created in churches today.

Christianity is NOT for the faint of heart. It's a rough and tumble road for men and women who have sold out everything for Christ! It's a religion for tough fishermen, and ex-tax collectors, and faithful men who would choose to be crucified upside down. We need to throw out this watered down, let's make'em love us, namby pamby gospel and really work for the Kingdom. They ARE NOT going to love us. The world does not know how to love. They are blind!

Go out into all the world and preach the gospel!


Go out into all the world and preach the Gospel!



Ignited-Faith -> RE: What can we do???? (4/26/2008 11:28:17 AM)

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Revelation 21:8



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: What can we do???? (4/26/2008 8:18:32 PM)

Never really looked at it that way! interesting perspective.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ignited-Faith

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Revelation 21:8



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