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TMeeks -> RE: lost faith and are happy (4/1/2008 7:01:09 PM)
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ORIGINAL: besshi
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ORIGINAL: TMeeks
As I read through your list, I was struck by the fact that christianity, as a religious set of DOs and DON'Ts is confusing. There are definitely some things that I think we've probably gotten wrong. I'm not totally convinced that we have properly understood Genesis 1; but, there are lots of scientific postulates that we don't understand either. Yet, we live by them each and every day.
In reply to your first sentence, legalism wasn't really an issue for me. I was always one of the "It's not a religion, it's a relationship" christians. Christianity wasn't simply a set of DOs and DONT'S to me. As for the rest of this paragraph, the term scientific postulates as I understand it refers to bacic scientific principles that are fairly obvious and doesn't need a lot of explanation; they're givens. Evolution, for example, is not a postulate but a complex theory. I'm not really sure what your point is. Are you saying that one shouldn't dismiss the Genesis account because science is complicated?
My only point was that one doesn't have to fully understand something to rely on it. [:)]
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When the basics are viewed as a whole, from Genesis to Revelation, they DO make sense as a continuum of progressive revelation. Each new revelation of the person of God builds on previous revelations with the goal of explaining the totality of the complexity of God's person. Far too much church teaching is person centered and far too little is God centered. The tail ends up TRYING to wag the dog.
I see it more as a Venn diagram, rather than a continuum. The old and new testaments have some overlapping prinicples, but they're very different parts of the Bible. If the prostitute in John 8 lived in the Old Testament I doubt she would have been allowed to live. After all, Deuteronomy 22:22 says "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die." It doesn't say "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die....but only someone without sin can kill them." [Also (side note) what is the difference between fulfilling and abolishing the law?? ] Could you map out this continuum that you mentioned for me? You don't have to perform a full exegesis on the entire Bible or anything, just the basics.
This is called 'Progressive Revelation'. Those from Adam to Moses didn't have any 'official text'. So, they had only what had been revealed in the covenants. God, through Moses, revealed more as it related to a specific tribe... the Isrealites. Later the Psalm, Proverbs and Prophetic books added ever more revelation about the person an purpose of God. What people fail to understand is that the books of Moses were specifically written to begin the process of setting up a nation that was a theocracy dedicated to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Everything written was to ensure, or try to ensure, the purity of the nation and set it apart from all other nations. But, it was all a part of the plan of God to reveal himself progressively, culminating in the New Testament.
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I understand all too well that many Christians lead miserable lives and many non-Christians lead enormously fullfilling and rich lives. But, both Christian and non-Christian make a huge mistake if they think any of that matters all that much in the long run. There is nothing that science has done or will ever be able to do to prove that there is no God. And, as long as the possibility of a God exists, then it is very foolish not to take that reality into account. You focused on specific items that lead to you loss of faith.
I've explored that interpretion of reality. I took it into account. I mean, I LIVED that reality for a good 15 years. Of course one can't prove God exists. One CAN'T prove a negative. As for the relevence of fulfillment, that's what this thread is about. Many christians think that one can only lead a fulfilling life if they have God in it. Since a non-christian with a fulfilling life doesn't jive with that assumption, christians often redefine what fulfillment must mean to a non-christian-- a life of sensual, yet empty, indulgements (the "high life"). I replied to show that that's not the case for me and many people.
I think we have really made a huge mistake in doing so. The reason we should become believers is simply that God DOES exist and He is worthy to be praised. It really doesn't matter if our lives are fulfilling or not. God is still God. We will be seeing many, many more people becoming discouraged about their faith because we have lied to them about the end product of faith. If they don't get a better job or don't get rich, then somehow they believe tht God has failed them. Hogwash. The only way God could fail us is if the resurrection of Jesus Christ was false. And, there is FAR more evidence that it is true and no evidence that has ever been brought foward to disprove it.
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I'm going to mention items that might have led you to lose your faith that do just the contrary for me. Take DNA. It's marvelous stuff. And, even in the tiniest of creatures it's complex stuff. But, there is nothing in DNA that gives us the answer as to why man, alone among the creation, seeks God. There is nothing in DNA that provides us with a clue as to why we, in the natural law, know right from wrong in an abstract sense. No other creature exhibits this. None.
DNA is pretty amazing! Our DNA has the instructions for building our highly developed brains. We're very creative and we thrive on knowledge and explanations of our environment. If we can't figure out something we become afraid. Early man in particular had it rough. We didn't have claws or much strength to protect us, and not much in the way of speed, agility, senses (smell, hearing, etc.), or any of the other helpful survival features that the other animals developed. But our brains allowed us to control our environment, and that ensured our survival. That's what made us feel safe. Of course, we can't figure out everything. When we couldn't understand floods, death, plagues, mental illness, or lightning to name a few, we realized we couldn't always rely on our brains. That made us very uncomfortable; we had no ultimate security. Our marvelous brains, however, had coping strategies. We made up stories and explantions. Death is the passage to Valhalla. Plauge exists because the Nosi (spirits of illness and disease) escaped from Pandora's Box. Mental illness is possession or prophesy. Lighting comes from Thor. These explanations gave us comfort. There was SOMEBODY(something, some beings, some energy) that was in charge; someone that understands so it's okay if we don't. So this might be why our DNA makes us seek God.
I don't know if DNA tells us right from wrong, exactly, but it does make us into the social people we are. Morals arise for survival reasons and for social reasons. Stealing may or may not be a survival issue, but not stealing certainly helps us work as a society. If we feel outside of a society it does harmful things to our mental wellbeing.
I certainly don't have a monopoly on truth, so I'm not saying what I wrote is without-a-doubt right, but it is an explantion that makes sense.
I'm afraid that you have completely missed the impact of DNA on our moral compass. Every single thing you say in this regard is complete conjecture. Dismissing the quest for God as induced by fear of the unknown is totally unsupportable. I, and many others, aren't the types of people that fall for fairy tales. We need objective evidence on which to place our beliefs. And, we aren't knee-jerk about issues involving science. I have had great dialogs with people like Francis Collins, a christian and evolutionist that lead the Human Genome Project. I am not shy about expressing the theological difficulties of his position. But, he is also not shy about ackowledging the same thing. What we are BOTH after is the TRUTH however it shakes out. That is NOT religion out of fear. It is faith out of fact and observation and modeling. By modeling I mean playing your scenario and playing out my scenario and testing the realities and outcomes. For me, mine wins, hands down. Jesus DID rise again. And, he WILL come again. Everything else flows from there.
You may find this thread somewhat interesting. In it, I am trying to integrate the latest information about the brain with spiritual realities. I find, for instance, that recent discoveries of how memories can be changed aligns perfectly with Scriptures written thousands of years ago. In fact, I find it absolutely fascinating that the Bible's references to the HEART as the center of our faith has only now been confirmed by the discovery of a 40,000 synapse mini-brain in our heart that is linked directly to the brains emotional center. These aren't accidents. The God that created us knew exactly what He was saying in His Word. [:D]
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