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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/27/2008 4:15:45 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1406
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Just a note that NOWHERE do we have indication that the situation in the OP is meymey's. It could very well be hypothetical. By subsequent posts, I think she's referring to someone she knows, not to herself.
Thanks. I edited my posts accordingly. 
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/27/2008 4:34:44 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1406
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RedcoatMello
Easy- no one gets everything they ever wish for. Life doesn't work that way. Christianity doesn't work that way either. But both Christians and non-Christians can lead personally fulfilling lives.
That's true. But, those who truly 'get it' when it comes to a relationship with Jesus Christ soar above all others in so many ways. There is an expansiveness that comes from a rich, full faith that transcends the mundane existence of most people that call themselves Christians, and all those that do not, miss entirely.
And it extends to every area of life. When a person realizes that the Bible is just the STARTING place and the LITMUS TEST for what is truth in Jesus Christ then ALL the disciplines come alive. The wonders of DNA are exciting for a non-christian. They are dull for a Christian that thinks their faith ends in 66 books. And, they are truly faith expanding to a Christian that realizes that God's creative character is revealed in a special way in the mysteries of DNA where all that we are is encoded in a single cell that controls every single aspect of our physical and mental being. Francis Collins rightly calls DNA, the Language of God when it comes to speaking you and me into being. He may be wrong in some areas. But, he certainly got that right.
For all of us, and that includes myself, our God is WAY too small. We wallow around worshipping a God that is only big enough to hear our prayers and who may or may not come through for us. The true magnitude of God seems incomprehensible to humans. But, as we begin to 'get it', then His reality and magnitude expands beyond our wildest dreams and He truly is EVERYWHERE and in EVERYTHING. Once a person truly sees even 1% of the magnitude of God there is NO turning back and NO abandoning that faith. And, it's absolutely incredible how fulfilling life becomes!
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 3/27/2008 4:41:54 PM >
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/27/2008 5:28:59 PM
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jfaye
Posts: 702
Joined: 12/18/2007
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quote:
Just a note that NOWHERE do we have indication that the situation in the OP is meymey's. It could very well be hypothetical. By subsequent posts, I think she's referring to someone she knows, not to herself.
I think you may be right, Tricia! Upon rereading the couple of postings I notice a very purposed
wording that avoided making it personal!
Oh well, it was a good exercise for me--as always it is to go to the word for the answers, and hopefully
it is meant for anyone who is considering the alternative to accepting Christ as their Lord. I'm so very
thankful, the Lord tapped me early in life and has never let me stray very far on His leash!!!!
_____________________________
Thankfully His,
Janice
"We cannot appreciate God's mercy until we realize He is first the God of justice!"
"O taste and see that the LORD is good;
How blessed is the one who takes refuge in Him!"
Psalm 34:8
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/27/2008 6:12:16 PM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3416
Joined: 1/9/2007
From: Payson, Arizona
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The Lord say that there are times He will turn them over to they're sins, and I would think that for a season they would seem happy. And some are just blessed with a lot of the "good things" of this world.
(loved that Psalm ta_mosquito!)
But without the Lord, life has no meaning. Eternity holds no promise. So the "happyness" is fleeing and without joy or hope.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/28/2008 1:36:05 AM
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totalfaith
Posts: 104
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quote:
Depends on the person. Some people live more fulfilling lives as ex-Christians, and others don't. Right now, I'm in the former category. It might be different in the future. Not everyone's experience is the same.
I completely disagree. How could anyone live a more fulfilling life as an ex-Christian?
The person described in this thread maybe happy now, but if they were truly saved they will become a miserable wretch and God will chasten them till they come back to the faith.
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/28/2008 12:09:58 PM
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perfectWeakness129
Posts: 49
Joined: 10/7/2005
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It appears our friend is no longer listenting, but let this be a lesson to us evangelicals. When you advertise Christianity as a means of blessing, you will get greedy 'converts' who will be disappointed at the unfulfilled promises. I have often heard it stated "God is offering you the 'free' gift of salvation and all you have to do is recieve it... if you are struggling with finances, health, or relationships, Jesus will give you peace..."
This statement is often taken by converts-to-be as a promise that Jesus will actually fix all these issues. This is not the case, His peace comes in spite of the issues, we still have to face them. God is not holding out some "free" gift and hoping you will take it. His work is done and we should be begging for salvation, and it should cost us everything. If you go to God looking for a genie, you will find an empty religion.
These are the fires that modern Evangelical Christianity is starting. As an Evangelical myself, I hope my time on earth does not throw gas on the fire. I pray that people will see God as worthy, and nothing less.
_____________________________
"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it." -Mark 8:34b-35
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/28/2008 1:54:38 PM
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terryjohn
Posts: 385
Joined: 3/23/2007
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I once had a cult member come to my door trying to show me the sense of joining their cult simply because he was more successful in life because of his beliefs but at the time what he didn't know was that I was more successful than he was and I did not share his beleifs. I was also stopped in the street one day by a scientologist who asked me how I thought I could become more successful, he was hopping to show me how his cult could do this but again at the time I was already successful as an unbeliever and so I told him that it was simple you just had to not care about anyone else but yourself and crush everyone or anything that got in your way of you achieving your goals. He had no answer to that and I continued on my way.
Sometime later as Christ began to show me the futility of such thinking I was given a vision one night of being in a very dark, terrifing place and I was helpless simply because I had all my wealth and dreams in my arms and I could or would not let them go to fight those things that were attacking me out of the darkness. In desperation I turned to see Christ and all the things I held on to fell and broke like empty wine bottles at my feet and I was suddenly felt free.
The one thing about wealth is it doesn't change the man for if worry about life with $1,000 in the bank, then I still worry about life when I have $100,000.
What is money for but to buy us a little happiness and what does happiness cost any way?Well I think it is free so why knock your self trying buy something Christ is giving away?
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/28/2008 2:14:01 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 4738
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: totalfaith
I completely disagree. How could anyone live a more fulfilling life as an ex-Christian?
The only way I can see that happening is if we understand what they are fulfilling; and the only fulfilling being an ex-Christian is fulfilling the desires of the fles and that is only temporty.
(Heb 11:25) Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
So ex-Christians might enjoy this sin for a season but then comes;
(2Co 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
And I promise that the joy, happiness, haughtiness, and arrogance of being an ex-Christian will be long gone, for a long long long time.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/29/2008 4:49:34 PM
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besshi
Posts: 16
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: totalfaith
I completely disagree. How could anyone live a more fulfilling life as an ex-Christian?
The only way I can see that happening is if we understand what they are fulfilling; and the only fulfilling being an ex-Christian is fulfilling the desires of the fles and that is only temporty.
I'm getting the impression from this thread that many believe those who leave the faith do so because Christianity is too difficult or restrictive, and that people choose (operative word) to leave the faith in order to indulge in desires of the flesh. There have been many posts in this thread that paint ex-christians as people who want the "high life" and don't want to be subject to christian rules and trials. People don't lose their faith because they want to pursue wealth, women, and wine-- they lose their faith because their perception of reality changes.
I never chose to lose my faith, but my perception of God and christianity certainly changed after reading the Bible more closely.
For example, I don't perceive killing the Canaanites (a people who were considered a spiritual snare to the Israelites) as a moral response, instead of bolstering the Israelite's faith and instilling that faith in the Canaanites. After all, faith isn't something we choose. It comes from God who is "the author and perfecter of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2).
I don't perceive stoning as an appropriate response to an insubordinate child (Deut 21:18), instead of determinedly and lovingly teaching and disciplining that child. I know some will say "But that's the OLD law; we aren't bound to it anymore," but it was still God's law, even if it doesn't apply to christian's today.
I perceive the earth to be much older than 6000 years, and I perceive animals to have evolved over a long time as well, as I've learned from books on history, geology, and biology. And I know there are plenty of christians out there who also believe this, but I have yet to see how these beliefs are congruent with the biblical explanation of history (for example, if the "days" in Genesis weren't literal days, then the Sabbath has no basis. Or, if humans evolved there would obviously be a population of them and the Genesis story of man's fall wouldn't work; it depends on there being two original humans who fell from grace and fathered the rest of humanity. There are other examples, but I'll leave that discussion to the folks in the Science and Origins folder.
I perceive the message of christianity to be, at best, confusing. According to christianity, humans must either
(1) live up to God's standards (moral perfection) or
(2) kill something innocent, such as livestock for a temporary fix, or God Himself for a permanent fix*
Number one is confusing because people aren't just like God. We don't function in the same way that God does, so I don't understand why He expects us to be like Him, morally (by His standards) perfect. I wouldn't expect something I created, such as heating/AC unit, to work like something different, such as a refrigerator. I know these are both created objects, but in this analogy God is like a refrigerator and people are like heating/AC units. God is constant; he always does the things that God does. Similarly, a refrigerator is constant; it works by keeping things cold all the time. People just don't work that way. Some of our actions are similar to God's, and some of our actions are different from God's. Similarly, a heating/AC unit works by being cold sometimes and warm other times. If I wanted to keep things cold, and only cold, I would build a refrigerator instead of building a heating/AC unit and then expect it to function like a refrigerator.
Number two is confusing because slaughter/murder seems like trying to make two wrongs into a right. Why would God want blood in order to forgive one's sins? What would we think of an earthly father who made his son kill a bird or cat every time he misbehaved?
This is a (very) short list of the things that changed my perception of christianity and God. At some point during these changes in perception my faith evaporated. I had a lot of love and devotion to God, and at first I didn't want to lose my faith. I begged God to heal my faith, but nothing changed for me. I was really sad at first; I felt like I lost my best friend.
So, what about fulfillment? After I lost my faith I didn't chase after riches and violence or anything like that. I gained fulfillment from just being human. I see us not as worms or sinful wretches or "the lost," but as people-- complex, loving, needy, creative, sometimes-beautiful-sometimes ugly people. We are what we are, and I think that's wonderful. This view helps me be more understanding and patient with myself and others. I do my best to love myself and everyone, and I strive to be the best person I can be. I gain fulfillment from exploring different ideas and people. I gain fulfillment from the relationships I have with my family and friends. To me, life is complex and beautiful enough without trying to incorporate supernatural entities into it.
*Note: Unlike the fall of man, which applied to everyone whether they wanted it to or not, the salvation of man was only possible to the few who could believe in it. This also doesn't make much sense to me.
EDIT: Pardon the poor analogy. I tried to fix it the best I could 
< Message edited by besshi -- 3/31/2008 12:15:46 AM >
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/29/2008 9:07:51 PM
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GeorgiaNerd
Posts: 244
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: UGA... GO DAWGS!
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Thanks for that long and eloquent explanation, besshi. Perhaps it is something that one can only understand if zhe has been there. I gain fulfillment through similar things. I gain fulfillment through my relationships with people and other animals. I also gain fulfillment through academia and attaining as much knowledge as I can in the fields of my interest: music theory, biological sciences, and statistics. But I also gain fulfillment by being able to truly be myself and knowing that that is beautiful. I no longer have to pretend to feminine when I am not naturally feminine at all. I can date other people who want or need sexless marriages, and possibly live in a sexless marriage one day. As an analyzer, I have the freedom to reason through the issues of today and formulate an opinion, even if it is not a Biblical one. Finally, I have the freedom to believe that I can be a good person and that one doesn't have to perfectly obey all of the rules in the Bible to be considered good. To me, Biblical perfection is not the only way to be good. The biblical idea that human nature is evil is not one that I accept. Do I pursue things of the flesh? Yes, absolutely. One has to, because food, beverages, and shelter are necessary for survival. Do I pursue sins of the flesh? No. Not any more than any Christian would.
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/30/2008 2:38:16 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1406
Joined: 1/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: besshi
I'm getting the impression from this thread that many believe those who leave the faith do so because Christianity is too difficult or restrictive, and that people choose (operative word) to leave the faith in order to indulge in desires of the flesh. There have been many posts in this thread that paint ex-christians as people who want the "high life" and don't want to be subject to christian rules and trials. People don't lose their faith because they want to pursue wealth, women, and wine-- they lose their faith because their perception of reality changes.
I never chose to lose my faith, but my perception of God and christianity certainly changed after reading the Bible more closely.W
For example, I don't perceive killing the Canaanites (a people who were considered a spiritual snare to the Israelites) as a moral response, instead of bolstering the Israelite's faith and instilling that faith in the Canaanites. After all, faith isn't something we choose. It comes from God who is "the author and perfecter of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2).
I don't perceive stoning as an appropriate response to an insubordinate child (Deut 21:18), instead of determinedly and lovingly teaching and disciplining that child. I know some will say "But that's the OLD law; we aren't bound to it anymore," but it was still God's law, even if it doesn't apply to christian's today.
I perceive the earth to be much older than 6000 years, and I perceive animals to have evolved over a long time as well, as I've learned from books on history, geology, and biology. And I know there are plenty of christians out there who also believe this, but I have yet to see how these beliefs are congruent with the biblical explanation of history (for example, if the "days" in Genesis weren't literal days, then the Sabbath has no basis. Or, if humans evolved there would obviously be a population of them and the Genesis story of man's fall wouldn't work; it depends on there being two original humans who fell from grace and fathered the rest of humanity. There are other examples, but I'll leave that discussion to the folks in the Science and Origins folder.
I perceive the message of christianity to be, at best, confusing. According to christianity, humans must either
(1) live up to God's standards (moral perfection) or
(2) kill something innocent, such as livestock for a temporary fix, or God Himself for a permanent fix*
Number one is confusing because I wouldn't expect something I created, such as heating/AC unit, to work like something different, such as a refrigerator. The refrigerator works by keeping things cold all the time, and the heating/AC unit works by being cold sometimes and warm other times. Adam and Eve may have been created with a different nature, but none of us were. In other words, we aren't "refrigerators;" we're "heating/AC units."
Number two is confusing because slaughter/murder seems like trying to make two wrongs into a right. hy would God want blood in order to forgive one's sins? What would we think of an earthly father who made his son kill a bird or cat every time he misbehaved?
This is a (very) short list of the things that changed my perception of christianity and God. At some point during these changes in perception my faith evaporated. I had a lot of love and devotion to God, and at first I didn't want to lose my faith. I begged God to heal my faith, but nothing changed for me. I was really sad at first; I felt like I lost my best friend.
So, what about fulfillment? After I lost my faith I didn't chase after riches and violence or anything like that. I gained fulfillment from just being human. I see us not as worms or sinful wretches or "the lost," but as people-- complex, loving, needy, creative, sometimes-beautiful-sometimes ugly people. We are what we are, and I think that's wonderful. This view helps me be more understanding and patient with myself and others. I do my best to love myself and everyone, and I strive to be the best person I can be. I gain fulfillment from exploring different ideas and people. I gain fulfillment from the relationships I have with my family and friends. To me, life is complex and beautiful enough without trying to incorporate supernatural entities into it.
*Note: Unlike the fall of man, which applied to everyone whether they wanted it to or not, the salvation of man was only possible to the few who could believe in it. This also doesn't make much sense to me.
As I read through your list, I was struck by the fact that christianity, as a religious set of DOs and DON'Ts is confusing. There are definitely some things that I think we've probably gotten wrong. I'm not totally convinced that we have properly understood Genesis 1; but, there are lots of scientific postulates that we don't understand either. Yet, we live by them each and every day.
When the basics are viewed as a whole, from Genesis to Revelation, they DO make sense as a continuum of progressive revelation. Each new revelation of the person of God builds on previous revelations with the goal of explaining the totality of the complexity of God's person. Far too much church teaching is person centered and far too little is God centered. The tail ends up TRYING to wag the dog.
I understand all too well that many Christians lead miserable lives and many non-Christians lead enormously fullfilling and rich lives. But, both Christian and non-Christian make a huge mistake if they think any of that matters all that much in the long run. There is nothing that science has done or will ever be able to do to prove that there is no God. And, as long as the possibility of a God exists, then it is very foolish not to take that reality into account. You focused on specific items that lead to you loss of faith.
I'm going to mention items that might have led you to lose your faith that do just the contrary for me. Take DNA. It's marvelous stuff. And, even in the tiniest of creatures it's complex stuff. But, there is nothing in DNA that gives us the answer as to why man, alone among the creation, seeks God. There is nothing in DNA that provides us with a clue as to why we, in the natural law, know right from wrong in an abstract sense. No other creature exhibits this. None.
The man who mapped the Genome, Francis Collins, calls DNA, "The Language of God" because its an amazingly interactive language in that it turns processes on and off at just the right times for just the right lengths of time. He, too, recognizes that DNA can do much to explain us. But, it cannot explain our unique ability to long for an abstract God.
To me this, alone is remarkable. And, it has nothing to do with the 'good' life or the 'fulfilled' life. But, it DOES have something to do with our being created in a special way, however it was achieved, in the very IMAGE of God. And, it DOES have something to do with our needing to build a special relationship with that God on HIS terms, not our own. I believe that the Bible communicates those terms very clearly and that is simple faith in the person, work, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 3/30/2008 2:46:27 PM >
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/30/2008 3:54:32 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 4738
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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A lie is a sin, and there are no excuses.
Learn a few more words and learn to respond if you have to without lying and without being rude or hurting someone feelings.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/30/2008 3:58:28 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 10982
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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What in the world are you talking about, RC?
_____________________________
Tricia
"When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the fire department generally uses water." ~Unknown
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/30/2008 9:40:36 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 10982
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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Ah - forums blur. Gotta love it.
_____________________________
Tricia
"When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the fire department generally uses water." ~Unknown
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/31/2008 12:16:01 AM
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besshi
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2008
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Hi TMeeks,
Thanks for replying to my post! I just wanted to say that I didnt' have the time today to write a proper reply (writing about a touchy subject like this is like navigating a mine field!), but I'll do my best to do it tomorrow night. Instead, I edited my admittedly confusing analogy :)
cheers!
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/31/2008 12:29:44 PM
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perfectWeakness129
Posts: 49
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I perceive the message of christianity to be, at best, confusing. According to christianity, humans must either
(1) live up to God's standards (moral perfection) or
(2) kill something innocent, such as livestock for a temporary fix, or God Himself for a permanent fix*
Good point, I appreciate the clear statement of cretique of Christianity. Let me see if I can clear something up...
1) No one can ever live up to God's standard. God know that when he created us. He knew it when he created you, but He also knew he would provide the "fix" for that. Paul says that after we die, those who did good will be resurrected to eternal life, those who did bad will be resurrected to the second death. Thats the status quo. If left unchanged, the "eternal life" side would be empty.
2) The temporary fix you refer to was not a fix at all. Sacrafice of the OT was an act of worship, nothing more. The nomadic Israelites were to take what was most preciouse to them and place it on the alter to the Most High God as a sign of loyalty and obedience. The manner of worship (sacrafice) was a sign that pointed to Christ, but was not efficacious in and of itself.
Christ is the perminant 'fix' according to the will of God known by the prophesy of the OT. Its been done.
_____________________________
"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it." -Mark 8:34b-35
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/31/2008 2:15:15 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6798
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
I'm getting the impression from this thread that many believe those who leave the faith do so because Christianity is too difficult or restrictive, and that people choose (operative word) to leave the faith in order to indulge in desires of the flesh. There have been many posts in this thread that paint ex-christians as people who want the "high life" and don't want to be subject to christian rules and trials. People don't lose their faith because they want to pursue wealth, women, and wine-- they lose their faith because their perception of reality changes.
Interestingly, you confirmed what you sought to disprove. For example you didn't feel comfortable with your perception of reality about Old Testament wars, and child rearing, and explanations of life's origin, so you came up with a belief system that would make you feel more comfortable; that is every bit as much a product of selfish desire as it would be if you rejected God's words to justify a pursuit of wealth, or sex, or a high.
We don't accept certain things about Scripture so we can believe, we accept them because we realize the human tendency to reject those things that get in the way or our comfort and desire - and as we understand this, as we reject our own proud proclivities, we put ourselves in a position hear truth. As Pascal put it so well in his Pensees:
Who will unravel this tangle? Nature confutes the sceptics, and reason confutes the dogmatists. What, then, will you become, O men! who try to find out by your natural reason what is your true condition? You cannot avoid one of these sects, nor adhere to one of them.
Know then, proud man, what a paradox you are to yourself. Humble yourself, weak reason; be silent, foolish nature; learn that man infinitely transcends man, and learn from your Master your true condition, of which you are ignorant. Hear God.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/31/2008 10:17:20 PM
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besshi
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
As I read through your list, I was struck by the fact that christianity, as a religious set of DOs and DON'Ts is confusing. There are definitely some things that I think we've probably gotten wrong. I'm not totally convinced that we have properly understood Genesis 1; but, there are lots of scientific postulates that we don't understand either. Yet, we live by them each and every day.
In reply to your first sentence, legalism wasn't really an issue for me. I was always one of the "It's not a religion, it's a relationship" christians. Christianity wasn't simply a set of DOs and DONT'S to me. As for the rest of this paragraph, the term scientific postulates as I understand it refers to bacic scientific principles that are fairly obvious and doesn't need a lot of explanation; they're givens. Evolution, for example, is not a postulate but a complex theory. I'm not really sure what your point is. Are you saying that one shouldn't dismiss the Genesis account because science is complicated?
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When the basics are viewed as a whole, from Genesis to Revelation, they DO make sense as a continuum of progressive revelation. Each new revelation of the person of God builds on previous revelations with the goal of explaining the totality of the complexity of God's person. Far too much church teaching is person centered and far too little is God centered. The tail ends up TRYING to wag the dog.
I see it more as a Venn diagram, rather than a continuum. The old and new testaments have some overlapping prinicples, but they're very different parts of the Bible. If the prostitute in John 8 lived in the Old Testament I doubt she would have been allowed to live. After all, Deuteronomy 22:22 says "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die." It doesn't say "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die....but only someone without sin can kill them." [Also (side note) what is the difference between fulfilling and abolishing the law?? ] Could you map out this continuum that you mentioned for me? You don't have to perform a full exegesis on the entire Bible or anything, just the basics.
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I understand all too well that many Christians lead miserable lives and many non-Christians lead enormously fullfilling and rich lives. But, both Christian and non-Christian make a huge mistake if they think any of that matters all that much in the long run. There is nothing that science has done or will ever be able to do to prove that there is no God. And, as long as the possibility of a God exists, then it is very foolish not to take that reality into account. You focused on specific items that lead to you loss of faith.
I've explored that interpretion of reality. I took it into account. I mean, I LIVED that reality for a good 15 years. Of course one can't prove God exists. One CAN'T prove a negative. As for the relevence of fulfillment, that's what this thread is about. Many christians think that one can only lead a fulfilling life if they have God in it. Since a non-christian with a fulfilling life doesn't jive with that assumption, christians often redefine what fulfillment must mean to a non-christian-- a life of sensual, yet empty, indulgements (the "high life"). I replied to show that that's not the case for me and many people.
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I'm going to mention items that might have led you to lose your faith that do just the contrary for me. Take DNA. It's marvelous stuff. And, even in the tiniest of creatures it's complex stuff. But, there is nothing in DNA that gives us the answer as to why man, alone among the creation, seeks God. There is nothing in DNA that provides us with a clue as to why we, in the natural law, know right from wrong in an abstract sense. No other creature exhibits this. None.
DNA is pretty amazing! Our DNA has the instructions for building our highly developed brains. We're very creative and we thrive on knowledge and explanations of our environment. If we can't figure out something we become afraid. Early man in particular had it rough. We didn't have claws or much strength to protect us, and not much in the way of speed, agility, senses (smell, hearing, etc.), or any of the other helpful survival features that the other animals developed. But our brains allowed us to control our environment, and that ensured our survival. That's what made us feel safe. Of course, we can't figure out everything. When we couldn't understand floods, death, plagues, mental illness, or lightning to name a few, we realized we couldn't always rely on our brains. That made us very uncomfortable; we had no ultimate security. Our marvelous brains, however, had coping strategies. We made up stories and explantions. Death is the passage to Valhalla. Plauge exists because the Nosi (spirits of illness and disease) escaped from Pandora's Box. Mental illness is possession or prophesy. Lighting comes from Thor. These explanations gave us comfort. There was SOMEBODY(something, some beings, some energy) that was in charge; someone that understands so it's okay if we don't. So this might be why our DNA makes us seek God.
I don't know if DNA tells us right from wrong, exactly, but it does make us into the social people we are. Morals arise for survival reasons and for social reasons. Stealing may or may not be a survival issue, but not stealing certainly helps us work as a society. If we feel outside of a society it does harmful things to our mental wellbeing.
I certainly don't have a monopoly on truth, so I'm not saying what I wrote is without-a-doubt right, but it is an explantion that makes sense.
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/31/2008 11:07:19 PM
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besshi
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
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I'm getting the impression from this thread that many believe those who leave the faith do so because Christianity is too difficult or restrictive, and that people choose (operative word) to leave the faith in order to indulge in desires of the flesh. There have been many posts in this thread that paint ex-christians as people who want the "high life" and don't want to be subject to christian rules and trials. People don't lose their faith because they want to pursue wealth, women, and wine-- they lose their faith because their perception of reality changes.
Interestingly, you confirmed what you sought to disprove. For example you didn't feel comfortable with your perception of reality about Old Testament wars, and child rearing, and explanations of life's origin, so you came up with a belief system that would make you feel more comfortable; that is every bit as much a product of selfish desire as it would be if you rejected God's words to justify a pursuit of wealth, or sex, or a high.
We don't accept certain things about Scripture so we can believe, we accept them because we realize the human tendency to reject those things that get in the way or our comfort and desire - and as we understand this, as we reject our own proud proclivities, we put ourselves in a position hear truth. As Pascal put it so well in his Pensees:
Who will unravel this tangle? Nature confutes the sceptics, and reason confutes the dogmatists. What, then, will you become, O men! who try to find out by your natural reason what is your true condition? You cannot avoid one of these sects, nor adhere to one of them.
Know then, proud man, what a paradox you are to yourself. Humble yourself, weak reason; be silent, foolish nature; learn that man infinitely transcends man, and learn from your Master your true condition, of which you are ignorant. Hear God.
I think you're saying I exchanged God's way for my way. I understand how you could see it as a choice between self or God, but that's not how it worked. In this thread I wrote about how parts of the Bible were morally reprehensible for me, but philosophically, cognitively it just didn't work. Physical objects, such as the earth, as well as our methods of understanding the way things work (like physics) tell us things that are contrary to what's written in the Bible, such as the creation story or the story of Noah's ark.
I'm listing things to try to give an explanation of this process, but this process was simply an exploration of my faith (or perhaps one could say christianity). I'd often get in religious discussions with atheists, but I didn't have as strong a command on the Bible as I thought was necessary. I wanted to answer all their questions. I had questions of my own. I thought "What if I'm wrong?" and wanted to really sink my teeth into christianity. I thought, I read the Bible, and I prayed. At some point, God simply stopped existing to me. I didn't approach God and reject him in order to follow myself. To me, in the end there was no God to reject, so I followed myself by default. If something seemed ridiculous, morally appalling, and you had no faith in it, would you still follow it? Wouldn't that just be empty religion?
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 3/31/2008 11:25:45 PM
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besshi
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: perfectWeakness129
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I perceive the message of christianity to be, at best, confusing. According to christianity, humans must either
(1) live up to God's standards (moral perfection) or
(2) kill something innocent, such as livestock for a temporary fix, or God Himself for a permanent fix*
Good point, I appreciate the clear statement of cretique of Christianity. Let me see if I can clear something up...
1) No one can ever live up to God's standard. God know that when he created us. He knew it when he created you, but He also knew he would provide the "fix" for that. Paul says that after we die, those who did good will be resurrected to eternal life, those who did bad will be resurrected to the second death. Thats the status quo. If left unchanged, the "eternal life" side would be empty.
2) The temporary fix you refer to was not a fix at all. Sacrafice of the OT was an act of worship, nothing more. The nomadic Israelites were to take what was most preciouse to them and place it on the alter to the Most High God as a sign of loyalty and obedience. The manner of worship (sacrafice) was a sign that pointed to Christ, but was not efficacious in and of itself.
Christ is the perminant 'fix' according to the will of God known by the prophesy of the OT. Its been done.
I'm almost certain Paul didn't say that "those who did good will be resurrected to eternal life, those who did bad will be resurrected to the second death." "Goodness" or "Badness" doesn't matter. Following or not following God determines eternal destination, according to the Bible. And why create a "fault" that needs to be "fixed" in the first place?
Also, people sacrificed animals for many reasons, sin atonement being one of them. Check out all the reasons people killed animals in the OT: http://www.ldsces.org/inst_manuals/ot-in-1/ot-in1-05-lev.htm I like the handy chart that's slightly down the page.
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/1/2008 6:13:41 PM
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