quote:

ORIGINAL: perfectWeakness129
The Old Testament institutes these rituals as an act of worship, like communion and baptism. OT Sacrifice did not 'cause' atonement. Faith saves, always has.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

No, I am not saying that; I am saying that rejecting what God says is true so as to be psychologically and intellectually comfortable, is every bit as wrong as rejecting God because one wanted sexual satisfaction or material wealth. It is trusting in one's estimation of what is good and right over God's estimation of what is good and right, in short, placing faith in one's own ability to make such discernments.

quote:

ORIGINAL: besshi
If something seemed ridiculous, morally appalling, and you had no faith in it, would you still follow it? Wouldn't that just be empty religion?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
Not more ridiculous than saying something was 'morally appalling' while rejecting a basis for measuring morality, which one does when one rejects God.

quote:

Original: Jhud
And not more ridiculous than placing one's faith in a seven pound brain that by atheist estimates is an accidental occurence, over the consistent and hsitorically demonstrated revelation of God.

quote:

People don't choose their faiths. I didn't choose to reject "A" to feel "B." I didn't say to myself "I must reject what God says to be true to feel okay." Losing one's faith is like saying, in effect, "*Oh*. This isn't true. Wow. Okay." I won't try to lie to myself and convince myself that I believe something different, which is what it would come down to. When I lost my faith, calling something "God's word" (and, by association, what you call God's estimation of what is good and right) was meaningless to me. It carried no significance for me, as perhaps the Koran carries no significance for you. So, I wasn't "rejecting" it so much as accepting it as just another belief that some other people hold to be true.
People can't voluntarily change their beliefs, but they can choose to live contrary to those beliefs by seeking sexual satisfaction or material wealth (if that's what those beliefs deem wrong). This, I suppose, would be considered rejecting God because God is still real to those people. I don't think this would be truly fulfilling and I expect most of those people would eventually choose to live in harmony with their beliefs rather than contrary to them.
Anyway, I read your post as meaning that people choose different reasons for the same action. I'm trying to explain that they are two different actions, one involuntary (losing faith) and the other voluntary (rejecting/revolting against one's faith).

quote:

I rejected a basis for measuring morality, not all of them.

quote:

I don't know a lot about history, but I do know that other cultures around the world were around before, during, and after the "global flood." This isn't just about the flood, I'm just saying that Biblical history and global history are not always harmonious....but that's another topic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D

I think he thought he was in the "Functionally Lying" thread in this folder, Tricia.[;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks


This is called 'Progressive Revelation'. Those from Adam to Moses didn't have any 'official text'. So, they had only what had been revealed in the covenants. God, through Moses, revealed more as it related to a specific tribe... the Isrealites. Later the Psalm, Proverbs and Prophetic books added ever more revelation about the person an purpose of God. What people fail to understand is that the books of Moses were specifically written to begin the process of setting up a nation that was a theocracy dedicated to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Everything written was to ensure, or try to ensure, the purity of the nation and set it apart from all other nations. But, it was all a part of the plan of God to reveal himself progressively, culminating in the New Testament.

quote:

ORIGINAL: besshi
I've explored that interpretion of reality. I took it into account. I mean, I LIVED that reality for a good 15 years. Of course one can't prove God exists. One CAN'T prove a negative. As for the relevence of fulfillment, that's what this thread is about. Many christians think that one can only lead a fulfilling life if they have God in it. Since a non-christian with a fulfilling life doesn't jive with that assumption, christians often redefine what fulfillment must mean to a non-christian-- a life of sensual, yet empty, indulgements (the "high life"). I replied to show that that's not the case for me and many people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

I think we have really made a huge mistake in doing so. The reason we should become believers is simply that God DOES exist and He is worthy to be praised. It really doesn't matter if our lives are fulfilling or not. God is still God. We will be seeing many, many more people becoming discouraged about their faith because we have lied to them about the end product of faith. If they don't get a better job or don't get rich, then somehow they believe tht God has failed them. Hogwash. The only way God could fail us is if the resurrection of Jesus Christ was false. And, there is FAR more evidence that it is true and no evidence that has ever been brought foward to disprove it.

quote:


I'm afraid that you have completely missed the impact of DNA on our moral compass. Every single thing you say in this regard is complete conjecture. Dismissing the quest for God as induced by fear of the unknown is totally unsupportable. I, and many others, aren't the types of people that fall for fairy tales. We need objective evidence on which to place our beliefs. And, we aren't knee-jerk about issues involving science. I have had great dialogs with people like Francis Collins, a christian and evolutionist that lead the Human Genome Project. I am not shy about expressing the theological difficulties of his position. But, he is also not shy about ackowledging the same thing. What we are BOTH after is the TRUTH however it shakes out. That is NOT religion out of fear. It is faith out of fact and observation and modeling. By modeling I mean playing your scenario and playing out my scenario and testing the realities and outcomes. For me, mine wins, hands down. Jesus DID rise again. And, he WILL come again. Everything else flows from there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

Check out this Psalm (emphasis mine):

1Surely God is good to Israel,
to those who are pure in heart.

2 But as for me, my feet had almost slipped;
I had nearly lost my foothold.

3 For I envied the arrogant
when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.

4 They have no struggles;
their bodies are healthy and strong.

5 They are free from the burdens common to man;
they are not plagued by human ills.

6 Therefore pride is their necklace;
they clothe themselves with violence.

7 From their callous hearts comes iniquity;
the evil conceits of their minds know no limits.

8 They scoff, and speak with malice;
in their arrogance they threaten oppression.

9 Their mouths lay claim to heaven,
and their tongues take possession of the earth.

10 Therefore their people turn to them
and drink up waters in abundance.

11 They say, "How can God know?
Does the Most High have knowledge?"

12 This is what the wicked are like—
always carefree, they increase in wealth.

13 Surely in vain have I kept my heart pure;
in vain have I washed my hands in innocence.

14 All day long I have been plagued;
I have been punished every morning.

15 If I had said, "I will speak thus,"
I would have betrayed your children.

Sounds kinda like what you're talking about, doesn't it? Reject God and prosper! How can this be? Well, read on:

16 When I tried to understand all this,
it was oppressive to me

17 till I entered the sanctuary of God;
then I understood their final destiny.

18 Surely you place them on slippery ground;
you cast them down to ruin.

19 How suddenly are they destroyed,
completely swept away by terrors!

20 As a dream when one awakes,
so when you arise, O Lord,
you will despise them as fantasies.

21 When my heart was grieved
and my spirit embittered,

22 I was senseless and ignorant;
I was a brute beast before you.

23 Yet I am always with you;
you hold me by my right hand.

24 You guide me with your counsel,
and afterward you will take me into glory.

25 Whom have I in heaven but you?
And earth has nothing I desire besides you.

26 My flesh and my heart may fail,
but God is the strength of my heart
and my portion forever.

27 Those who are far from you will perish;
you destroy all who are unfaithful to you.

28 But as for me, it is good to be near God.
I have made the Sovereign LORD my refuge;
I will tell of all your deeds.

See, just because someone rejects God and prospers here on earth doesn't mean squat. One must take an eternal perspective. One second after we die, the ONLY things that matter are if we knew Jesus and what we did for Him. One's destiny in eternity is a LOT more important than a job, a significant other, riches, influence, happiness, or whatever else we want here on earth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
No, I am not saying that; I am saying that rejecting what God says is true so as to be psychologically and intellectually comfortable, is every bit as wrong as rejecting God because one wanted sexual satisfaction or material wealth. It is trusting in one's estimation of what is good and right over God's estimation of what is good and right, in short, placing faith in one's own ability to make such discernments.

quote:

Original: RedcoatMello

Jhud (or other Christians): Can you please explain this statement to me?

quote:

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

quote:

so what is so wrong about making discernments?

quote:

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedcoatMello

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
No, I am not saying that; I am saying that rejecting what God says is true so as to be psychologically and intellectually comfortable, is every bit as wrong as rejecting God because one wanted sexual satisfaction or material wealth. It is trusting in one's estimation of what is good and right over God's estimation of what is good and right, in short, placing faith in one's own ability to make such discernments.

Jhud (or other Christians): Can you please explain this statement to me? It seems like you are saying that intellect, discernment, and critical thinking skill are wrong. I'm pretty sure that isn't what you mean because you are an intellectual guy and are gifted in scientific reasoning (although I don't agree with you conclusions). I just wanted to make sure that you aren't propagating the myth that Christians are less capable of making judgments based on critical thinking, because I know that you make such judgments every day. Science that involves deities in the interpretation of results isn't good science. Or are you talking about morality here? Christians also make moral judgments based on critical thinking every day as well because the cultural construct of today places many issues on the table that weren't there in Biblical times, so what is so wrong about making discernments?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

Your post is a bit confusing. On one hand you talk about ‘accepting’ and ‘rejecting’ and ‘choosing’ to live a certain way, while saying simultaneously that you didn’t choose to reject anything, or voluntarily change beliefs and that people choose to live at harmony with their beliefs. Which they don’t choose. But can accept. I am not sure you are so clear on what you have done or not done.

Either way, your initial premise included the fact that you didn’t care for the killing of certain people groups and the penalties for sins in the OT; while this may be to difficult for some to except, it really doesn’t have anything to do with the truth of the Bible (that is it’s accurate representation of reality)

quote:

What is your current basis for morality?

quote:

I think that while there might be aspects of the Bible for ehich have yet to discover definitive historical support, invariably as discoveries are made they provide increasing evidence that the Bible is an accurate record of history with respect to the events it chronicles.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meymey

but why is it that when they decided to not follow Jesus get those good things

quote:

ORIGINAL: sparkleingsnow

Then besshi with all that being said. What is the point of life?
Where is the meaning of life? Are we just a flickering light, here for a moment, then gone? All that we strive for all our lifes gone at the moment of our deaths?

How very sad. Live with hope. Meaningless to the 10th degree!

I don't think you fully believe that. If you did, you wouldn't be here talking with believers. I think deep down you and others on this thread are hoping someone will say something that will touch a cord in your hearts. Something that will give you a flicker of hope. That the Lord will speak through someone, just the right words to help you get back some of your faith.

Dear Father, I lift up besshi and all those who have expressed a loss of faith on this threat. Father, give them a flicker of hope. Reveal Yourself to them Lord. Renew they faith in You, and remove all doubt. You are the Lord God Almighty, and we praise Your name. Asking this in the name of Jesus Christ our Saviour, and Your will. Amen

quote:

It may seem a little confusing. Seeing the worldview of someone else isn't always easy or simple.

Worldview of Christians
For some people, God is real. All information is interpreted through a Biblical, God-centered lens. The reality of God is not a question; it’s a given. It is in fact the ultimate reality and ultimate authority of reality, and all thoughts or ideas that the individual may create are subject to it. All information is interpreted from a Biblical perspective.

If something within or about the Bible or God seems contradictory, the person defaults to the belief that God is real and that the folly is on fallible people, not God or the Bible.

All information is interpreted as supporting the Bible and a Biblical worldview. Again, all contradictory or conflicting statements are considered either a mystery of God or misunderstood by the reader.


Living Harmoniously with a Christian Worldview
As stated, those with a Christian worldview believe that God is real, the Bible is correct, and God expects Christians to behave certain ways. If a person strives to behave and live as a Christian should, he or she is living harmoniously with their beliefs. To them, God is real and that individual is striving to live as God intended.

Living Discordantly with a Christian Worldview
As stated, those with a Christian worldview believe that God is real, the Bible is correct, and God expects Christians to behave certain ways. When a person with a Christian worldview behaves in a way that is discordant with the way a Christian should behave, that person is revolting against the God that he/she believes is real. This is, I feel, the most relevant expression of the term “rejecting God” to this discussion.

The Term “Rejecting God”
A rejection of God could mean two things. In the paragraph above, this is a personal rejection of God. The person believes God is real yet chooses to live against God. God is real, yet the person lives according to his or her own rules. He/she is rejecting “God” and choosing “Self.”
Another meaning of “rejecting God” is not personal. It is the rejection of a concept or idea. This impersonal rejection of the concept of God is only possible if the person does not believe God is real. “Person A” rejects the notion that God exists, but “Person A” may accept or understand that others believe that God is real.

Worldview of Non-Christians
For some people, God is not real. These people also live in harmony or discordance with what is real to them, but that reality is not Biblically based. All information is interpreted through their world views, which vary from person to person.

Changing from a Christian to an Ex-Christian
Experiences vary from person to person, so I’ll just talk about my own. I used to have the worldview of a Christian and all that entailed. My mind could not be changed and everything was interpreted through a Biblical/Christian lens. However, at one point I became curious about my faith in a new way. I wanted to try hard to be as objective as I could about the information I viewed about Christianity. At this time, I was in a questioning phase, about as neutral as I could be. For most of the time during this phase, I did still believe in God, but I was open to any result that my questioning would eventually lead to. Basically, I was on a search for truth. When I tried to be open and honest about the information I came across, I began to confront the conflicts and contradictions in Christianity. As I read, the Bible increasingly seemed like it was written by people. It started to seem less divine. Feeling my faith fade, I prayed and called on God to heal my faith. My faith, however, was not restored. Eventually, I came to the realization that God isn’t real. It’s important to note that it wasn’t necessarily the information itself that caused my change to an ex-Christian. After all, information is interpreted according to what a person thinks is real. The catalyst to my change was my loss of faith.
To a degree, my deconversion had an intellectual basis, but what really changed everything for me was that revelation, that change in perspective. When I became an ex-Christian I didn’t have any faith because I just didn’t have any faith.

quote:

That's a pretty complex question, but for simplicity's sake I'll say that the Golden Rule is applicable to most situations. I try my best to create an outcome suitable to everyone. Sometimes I miss the mark, but I'm only human. As I see it, that's all we CAN be.

quote:

Of course...people often tend to interpret information as evidence for thier worldviews. That's what I wrote. You might want to read about discoveries that provide evidence that is contradictory to the Biblical account of history. It may at least give you an insight into a different perspective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meymey

if once a believe and you are tested for a long time, like you didn't have a job and all your relationships have gone bad but then you lose your faith and you decide to not make Jesus your choice, as soon as you do you get all these things where did they come from, all of the sudden you have a good job and all of the sudden you have a good relationship you became happy where did all these good things come from. You don't go to church any more, you don't go by the Word of God any more

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

Thanks for the breakdown. One thing I want to make clear before I respond is that I think I started from a different viewpoint than you did. I was an agnostic before I was a Christian, a skeptic who was very influenced by reason and science. So I have in a sense already been where you are; much as you feel that you ‘explored’ Christianity objectively, I did the same as an agnostic, except I was equally willing to view a godless life through the same lens; in the end I found it to be empty and meaningless (indeed, in a sense I see now that it really couldn’t be otherwise by definition – any ‘meaning’ we derive for ourselves apart from an external and eternal reality is by definition imaginary).

quote:

In turn, I experienced Christ – and objectively, that experience was as real as anything else that I might have understood or experienced. And I know, that experience wasn’t a product of ‘Biblical/Christian lens’, because I was an agnostic and I had never read the Bible. So in a very real way, to turn away from my faith now would be to deny objective reality, and turn to what I know to be false.

quote:


Now I believe you when you say you haven’t had this experience, and without it, I am not sure anyone’s faith can be sustained; but that fact doesn’t change the reality of it.

quote:


I appreciate that, but what I have always found odd is that we have to appeal to any rules at all. In all of nature we see organisms simply acting as they are; Apes don’t follow ‘ape rules’, dolphins don’t follow ‘dolphin standards’. It would be ridiculous to say, “He’s only a dog, sometimes he misses the mark, but tries his best to be a dog” because dogs don’t ‘try’ to be dogs, they just are what they are. Humans, on the other hand, throughout history, have strived to meet a standard of some sort.

quote:


Morality, laws, appeals to our better natures, all these indicate that we sense we are something less than we should be, and in my mind this is most readily explained by the idea that there exists an external and eternal nature, from which we are derived and have fallen short. In short, that is objective proof of both our divine origin, and fallen nature.

quote:


As I said, I was a skeptic before I was Christian, and in many respects, I still am; the difference is that I now am willing to apply that skepticism to science and materialism, and in doing so I find real objectivity.

quote:

You seem to believe you’re tapped into an external and eternal reality, since you wrote about objective reality with seeming confidence. That brings up a couple questions in my mind. If all Christians have experience with objective reality then why can’t any of them agree what that reality is? I don’t just mean small details, but basic tenets of faith as well. At one point, this very website defined Christians (in the “Christians Only” folder) as conservative, protestant, evangelical Christians. Are those the only “real” Christians? You define a meaningful life based on what you consider an external and eternal reality, but since Christians obviously don’t agree on what exactly that reality is I don’t see how that definition is even valid.

quote:

There’s no objective proof that we have a “better nature” (better than what?), so it can’t be objective proof of a divine origin or fallen nature. This is instead a matter of interpretation. I’m kind of surprised that you would use the words “objective” and “proof” in this way.

quote:

Are you implying that skepticism isn’t applied to science and the material world (if that’s what you meant by materialism)? Some scientists do have their own agendas, but that’s why scientific findings are peer reviewed. That’s why rigorous tests are conducted on a hypothesis. That’s why the scientific method was created. These methods are in place efforts to limit tampering with the facts and to promote valid findings.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

To All:

You will notice that we are beginning to get a flood of these types of posts in the 'Christians Only' threads.

Expect more.

For years now we have seen more and more Christians engaging in theologies that tell them that if they just pray a certain way, give a certain way or worship a certian way then all their wants will be met. In other words, God is suppose to be at their beck and call. And, when it doesn't turn out this way it's no wonder that their faith is shattered.

God is NOT our servant. He is GOD.

I urge you to seriously take a look at Bob Sjogren's book "Cat & Dog Theology" that will explain exactly what the OP expected and why... We think WE are the masters over God and not the other way around and when He doesn't come running right away then we will just show Him by deciding He isn't real after all.

God doesn't depend on us for His reality. He is who He is in spite of what we think about Him and He WILL do His will no matter what.

quote:

Enjoying Christ to Receive a Reward { 2 Parts }

Luke 14:27
Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after
Me cannot be My disciple.
(28) For which of you, wanting to
build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost,
whether he has enough to complete it?
(29) Lest perhaps, once
he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all those
looking on will begin to mock him,

Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy
is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the
second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God
and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


The tone here [in Luke 14:25-35] is very different from that
in 14:15-24. For salvation there is no need for us to do
anything.
This means that for salvation there are no terms, no
conditions. We simply need to answer God's invitation and
receive what He offers us and we are saved.
But there is more
to God's economy than just being saved. After we are saved, we
need to enter into the coming kingdom to receive a reward.
Therefore, to be saved by grace is one thing, and to be
rewarded according to our following of the Lord is another
thing.

We all need to see the difference between salvation and
reward. God's salvation is for us to enjoy the jubilee today,
and His reward is for us to enjoy the jubilee in the coming
age. We have seen that the New Testament jubilee is of three
stages:

first, the jubilee in the present age, the age of
grace;
the second, the jubilee in the coming age, the age of
the kingdom;
and third, the jubilee in eternity, in the new
heaven and new earth.


Enjoying the jubilee today is a matter
of salvation. However, enjoying the jubilee in the coming age
is a matter of reward. The enjoyment of the jubilee in
eternity in the new heaven and new earth will be the full
taste of God's full salvation [for all the believers].

Today everyone who accepts God's invitation and receives the
offer of what He has prepared for us has the ground to
participate in the New Testament jubilee and enjoy Christ in
this age. But in order to receive the reward of the jubilee in
the coming age, we need to enjoy Christ faithfully in this
age. Many saved ones are not faithful to enjoy Christ today.
For this reason, God has set up a reward as an incentive that
we may enjoy Christ faithfully in this present age. If we do
not enjoy Christ faithfully today, we shall lose the enjoyment
of Christ in the coming age. Here we see that in His wisdom
God has made the enjoyment of Christ in the coming age a
reward for the faithful ones, the ones who enjoy Christ
faithfully in this age.

2 Cor. 5:10
For we [the believers] must all be manifested before the judgment seat
of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body
according
to what he has practiced, whether good or bad.

Rev. 22:12
Behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me to render to
each one as his work is.

We need to enjoy Him faithfully in order
to receive the reward in the coming age of the kingdom.
Otherwise, we shall lose the enjoyment of Christ in that coming
age. The kingdom will be a reward in the thousand years to the
faithful enjoyers of Christ, and that reward will also be a
jubilee. Today's jubilee is real, but it is only a foretaste,
not the full taste. God has presented us such a foretaste, and
we need to have a high regard for it.

According to the New Testament, God's kingdom today is Christ
as our enjoyment. This enjoyment is the jubilee. The kingdom of
God, which is Christ Himself, has set us free from the bondage
of sin, Satan, the world, and the self. The kingdom of God has
also recovered our right to the divine inheritance, the right
to enjoy the Triune God in Christ. Today in God's salvation we
have the right to enjoy Christ, the right to enjoy the jubilee.
Now we must remain faithful in this enjoyment. Properly and
faithfully we need to enjoy God's Son who is the all-inclusive
Christ as the all- inclusive Spirit. This faithful enjoyment of
Christ will qualify us to enter into the kingdom in the coming
age and there to enjoy a fuller jubilee. That fuller jubilee
will be a reward. Receiving this reward requires the
fulfillment of a condition, and this condition is that we
faithfully and continually enjoy Christ today.

In our daily living we may fail to enjoy Christ. If you fail,
simply repent and confess your failure, and the blood of Jesus
will cleanse you. Then you will be brought back to the proper
enjoyment of Christ. We may need to do this again and again,
each time we fail. When you go to bed at night, you may sense
your failures that day. But if you confess them, you will have
a new beginning concerning the enjoyment of Christ. Every day
we should exercise to keep ourselves in the faithful enjoyment
of Christ.

From yesterdays and todays 2 part devotion
Emanna, lsm.org.

quote:


I disagree with this; I think if you put a basic creed out there, the Apostles creed or the Nicene creed, 90% of the Christians would agree with it.

quote:

And the external and eternal reality I encountered in Christ isn't the least bit dependent on what one might imagien others may or may not believe.

quote:

Well, as all cultures have laws, morality, and and standards of behavior they strive to achieve, I would say that is about as objective and proven notion as there is about humanity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
Now I believe you when you say you haven’t had this experience, and without it, I am not sure anyone’s faith can be sustained; but that fact doesn’t change the reality of it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: besshi
Could you clarify what you mean by “this experience?” Your personal type of experience with God? Experience with Christ in general? It’s a little unclear.

quote:

I highly doubt that 90% of Christians believe that Jesus descended into hell (part of the Apostels creed). I think I remember there being a thread about that on here at one point. And the part about belief in one unified church is right out. Just ask christianity.com members if they think that Catholics are "real christians" (or Baptists or Quakers or Jehovah's Witnesses or Greek Orthodox or liberals...).
Also, these creeds, for the most part, cover the most basic of basics-- 'We believe Jesus is God's son who came to provide salvation for humanity, etc.' Obviously christians would have to agree who their God is. Otherwise, they wouldn't have a religion at all! But ask a christian if christians continue to sin after they accept Christ. Ask a christian if women should be pastors. Ask a christian if we should keep the law. Ask a christian when and how the sabbath should be observed or if it should be observed at all. Ask a christian if christians are 'once saved, always saved.' Ask a christian if children go to hell. Ask a christian if Jews are going to hell. Ask a christian whether the eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ. Ask a christian about pretty much any doctrine based on the Bible. Ask more than one, and you'll get a different answer.

quote:

My point was that if christians are all getting their truth from the same source-- GOD-- and they can't agree what this truth is, then they are completely unreliable. How is your interpretation of the truth any more reliable than other christians'? Are you the only "real christian" who has access to the "real truth"?

quote:

I wasn't questioning whether or not laws exist. I said that they weren't "objective proof" of the divine. As I said, this is simply your interpretation.

quote:

Could you clarify what you mean by “this experience?” Your personal type of experience with God? Experience with Christ in general? It’s a little unclear.