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Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/24/2008 5:38:59 PM
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jfaye
Posts: 702
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Are you saved but not baptized? If so, do you believe you have the Holy Spirit
indwelling you having 'believed' but not yet baptized?
_____________________________
Thankfully His,
Janice
"We cannot appreciate God's mercy until we realize He is first the God of justice!"
"O taste and see that the LORD is good;
How blessed is the one who takes refuge in Him!"
Psalm 34:8
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/24/2008 10:41:37 PM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 133
Joined: 5/5/2005
From: FL
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quote:
Are you saved but not baptized?
In most cases this situation is not likely.
Baptism is the normative vehicle by which we are regenerated through water and the Spirit and one moves from a state of sin to a state of grace.
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/24/2008 11:25:45 PM
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A_crucified_man
Posts: 164
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From: Charleston, WV
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Scripture doesn't support it - we're saved by GRACE alone, water can't save you.
_____________________________
Derek
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/25/2008 7:41:02 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 969
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man
Scripture doesn't support it - we're saved by GRACE alone, water can't save you.
I agree we are saved by grace alone. But the fact that we are saved by grace alone doesn't mean that we do nothing in order to receive that grace.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/25/2008 7:57:32 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 3700
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quote:
ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man
...we're saved by GRACE alone, water can't save you.
True, but the first fruit of salvation seems to be the universal desire to obey the Lord's command to be baptized. The Ethiopian is a prime example: Barely saved a moment when he asked to be baptized by Phillip. Jesus thought enough of it to include it in what we often refer to as The Great Commission.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/25/2008 11:00:27 AM
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rileykins
Posts: 194
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In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Ephs.1:13
Heard, trusted, believed, sealed with the holy Spirit of promise...no water in it whatsoever. We are regenerated the moment we believe. By grace THROUGH faith. Not by grace through faith plus a water ceremony or anything else. The ONLY response grace accepts is faith.
rileykins
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/25/2008 11:11:05 AM
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A_crucified_man
Posts: 164
Joined: 12/11/2007
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man
...we're saved by GRACE alone, water can't save you.
True, but the first fruit of salvation seems to be the universal desire to obey the Lord's command to be baptized. The Ethiopian is a prime example: Barely saved a moment when he asked to be baptized by Phillip. Jesus thought enough of it to include it in what we often refer to as The Great Commission.
I think you're missing the point - the Gospel is about salvation by grace through Calvary and water baptism isn't a part of it. To say so is adding works to salvation.
_____________________________
Derek
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/25/2008 11:15:27 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 3700
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quote:
ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man
...we're saved by GRACE alone, water can't save you.
True, but the first fruit of salvation seems to be the universal desire to obey the Lord's command to be baptized. The Ethiopian is a prime example: Barely saved a moment when he asked to be baptized by Phillip. Jesus thought enough of it to include it in what we often refer to as The Great Commission.
I think you're missing the point - the Gospel is about salvation by grace through Calvary and water baptism isn't a part of it. To say so is adding works to salvation.
I'm confused... Are you saying that once saved, we are free to do whatever we want and never again be encumbered with obeying Jesus - that Jesus can be Savior without being Lord, that faith without works is okie dokie?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/25/2008 11:20:32 AM
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A_crucified_man
Posts: 164
Joined: 12/11/2007
From: Charleston, WV
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man
Scripture doesn't support it - we're saved by GRACE alone, water can't save you.
I agree we are saved by grace alone. But the fact that we are saved by grace alone doesn't mean that we do nothing in order to receive that grace.
Faith allows us to receive God's grace - faith in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection and nothing else.
Being baptized in water doesn't secure anything from God with respect to His grace or forgiveness or anything else - we do it out of obediance and love for our Lord in order to be identified with His death, burial,and resurrection.
But it doesn't add anything to our salvation - water baptism is an ordinance just the same as communion. Water baptism identifies us with Christ and communion maintains our life by keeping us focused on Christ's work on the cross.
_____________________________
Derek
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/25/2008 11:42:35 AM
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TimGagnonORG
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Are you saved but not baptized? If so, do you believe you have the Holy Spirit
indwelling you having 'believed' but not yet baptized?
I think the scriptures are clear in ACTS chapter 10 that believers can be filled with the HOLY SPIRIT without being Baptized in Water. Cornelius' entire household was filled with the Spirit while Peter still preaching to them. He didn't even have time to do the "altar call"! Peter then commands them to be Baptized saying, " 47. "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48. So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
You will NOTE however that Peter IMMEDIATELY orders their Baptism in Water in the Name of Jesus.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/25/2008 11:47:41 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3108
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quote:
True, but the first fruit of salvation seems to be the universal desire to obey the Lord's command to be baptized. The Ethiopian is a prime example: Barely saved a moment when he asked to be baptized by Phillip. quote:
I'm confused... Are you saying that once saved, we are free to do whatever we want and never again be encumbered with obeying Jesus - that Jesus can be Savior without being Lord, that faith without works is okie dokie? I'm confused... Are you saying that once saved, we must ask for baptism in the next moment, or we're in danger of losing our salvation? That faith without baptism is dead?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/25/2008 11:52:24 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 3700
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I'm confused... Are you saying that once saved, we must ask to be baptized the next moment or we're in danger of forfeiting our salvation? That faith without baptism is dead?
I do not believe in baptismal regeneration, if that's your concern.
You should have noted, though Derek didn't either, that the first word I wrote in response to his, "we're saved by GRACE alone, water can't save you," was, "True."
I agreed that water doesn't save nor complete salvation.
My one and only point is that, as new believers, we should want to baptized because Jesus Himself expressed that we should. I just assumed that obeying Him would be considered evidence (not proof or completion) that He is our Lord. I didn't expect anyone here to jump on me for suggesting that baptism should be among the first things a believer would want to do.
Do you have a problem with that?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/25/2008 11:52:48 AM
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A_crucified_man
Posts: 164
Joined: 12/11/2007
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TimGagnonORG
Are you saved but not baptized? If so, do you believe you have the Holy Spirit
indwelling you having 'believed' but not yet baptized?
I think the scriptures are clear in ACTS chapter 10 that believers can be filled with the HOLY SPIRIT without being Baptized in Water. Cornelius' entire household was filled with the Spirit while Peter still preaching to them. He didn't even have time to do the "altar call"! Peter then commands them to be Baptized saying, " 47. "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48. So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
You will NOTE however that Peter IMMEDIATELY orders their Baptism in Water in the Name of Jesus.
She's asking about the Believer's Baptism at conversion prior to being baptized in water - that Scripture is talking about them being Baptized in the Holy Spirit just like the Apostles were on Pentecost (they're already born-again prior to this act of grace) and then being baptized in water. But you are correct, believers can be Baptized in the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism - if anything, it proves that water baptism isn't required for salvation.
_____________________________
Derek
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/25/2008 12:17:34 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3108
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
I agreed that water doesn't save nor complete salvation. Thank you for that clarification, JF. You used two phrases ("universal desire" and "barely saved a moment") that suggested, to me anyway, a strong connotation linking baptism to regeneration. Just as you distanced yourself from that concept, I suspect A_c_m would distance himself from the concept of antinomianism which your questions to him implied he held. That is what I "jumped on", not the importance of baptism.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/25/2008 2:30:26 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 969
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man
I think you're missing the point - the Gospel is about salvation by grace through Calvary and water baptism isn't a part of it. To say so is adding works to salvation. When Jesus gave what we call the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19-20 He told his disciples to make more disciples by baptizing them and by teaching them "to observe all that I have commanded you." "All" is a comprehensive term and it does not include baptism. Jesus did not include baptism in "all that I have commanded you." The obvious implication is that baptism is not a work since observing all that Jesus commanded would be works and Jesus differentiated between that and baptism.
< Message edited by greatdivide46 -- 3/25/2008 2:39:30 PM >
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/25/2008 8:14:02 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 619
Joined: 1/22/2008
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quote:
Are you saved but not baptized? If so, do you believe you have the Holy Spirit
indwelling you having 'believed' but not yet baptized?
I was saved long before I was baptized as a believer. I had been baptized as an infant.
I had the Holy Spirit before I went to the river for baptism. No doubt. But I wanted to publically identify with Christ and be baptized out of obedience---no other reason.
I, too, believe you are sealed with the Holy Spirit if you are His regardless of ANY act on our part. It is His doing, not mine.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/25/2008 10:36:17 PM
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A_crucified_man
Posts: 164
Joined: 12/11/2007
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man
I think you're missing the point - the Gospel is about salvation by grace through Calvary and water baptism isn't a part of it. To say so is adding works to salvation. When Jesus gave what we call the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19-20 He told his disciples to make more disciples by baptizing them and by teaching them "to observe all that I have commanded you." "All" is a comprehensive term and it does not include baptism. Jesus did not include baptism in "all that I have commanded you." The obvious implication is that baptism is not a work since observing all that Jesus commanded would be works and Jesus differentiated between that and baptism.
We will never agree with one another - water baptism is NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION.
_____________________________
Derek
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/25/2008 10:40:14 PM
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A_crucified_man
Posts: 164
Joined: 12/11/2007
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I'm confused... Are you saying that once saved, we must ask to be baptized the next moment or we're in danger of forfeiting our salvation? That faith without baptism is dead?
I do not believe in baptismal regeneration, if that's your concern.
You should have noted, though Derek didn't either, that the first word I wrote in response to his, "we're saved by GRACE alone, water can't save you," was, "True."
I agreed that water doesn't save nor complete salvation.
My one and only point is that, as new believers, we should want to baptized because Jesus Himself expressed that we should. I just assumed that obeying Him would be considered evidence (not proof or completion) that He is our Lord. I didn't expect anyone here to jump on me for suggesting that baptism should be among the first things a believer would want to do.
Do you have a problem with that?
Thank you for the clarification, JF - your first response didn't come across as clearly. I agree - it's something you should want to do out of obediance because it is an ordinance but it isn't required for salvation.
_____________________________
Derek
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/25/2008 11:11:04 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 969
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man
We will never agree with one another - water baptism is NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION.
I suppose you're right. We probably never will agree with each other. I so enjoy discussing this issue with others, but apparently not everyone does, and that's OK.
I do believe that's its required, but I don't not believe that it is what saves us. We are saved by God's grace and nothing else.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/26/2008 12:15:50 AM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 133
Joined: 5/5/2005
From: FL
Status: offline
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quote:
I do believe that's its required, but I don't not believe that it is what saves us.
I have heard this argument before and it leads this question;
Why is it required if it does nothing ??
If it is required, what happens if you don't do it ??
quote:
We are saved by God's grace and nothing else.
Baptism is the normative way God's grace is conferred to us.
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/26/2008 12:48:59 AM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 133
Joined: 5/5/2005
From: FL
Status: offline
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quote:
water baptism is NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION
I guess Jesus and the apostles must have got it wrong, and wasted a lot of time doing something that does nothing for you.
Mark 16:15-16
quote:
He said to them, "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
John 3:4-5
quote:
Nicodemus said to him, "How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother's womb and be born again, can he?"
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
John 3:22-23
quote:
After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing.
John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was an abundance of water there, and people came to be baptized
Matthew 28:18-20
quote:
Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."
Acts 2:37-38, 41
quote:
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, "What are we to do, my brothers?"
Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.
Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day
Acts 22:16
quote:
Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.'
1 Peter 3:20-21
quote:
in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Romans 6:3-4
quote:
Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.
Titus 3:4-7
quote:
But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared,
not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior,
so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/26/2008 8:34:24 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 3700
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
It is required because it is in baptism that we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).
I received the Holy Spirit a good 2 weeks before I stepped into the water for baptism. Had a Mac truck run me down between the two events, I am thoroughly convinced that I would have awakened in the presence of my Lord Jesus Christ who redeemed me by His blood, not by the H2O of the creek in which I publicly testified of His redemption through baptism.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/26/2008 9:16:42 AM
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lgpreacherman
Posts: 89
Joined: 2/9/2008
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Greeting all,
I should say that Baptism is the normative means of grace. In Jimbo's example, if one claims to believe and does not have an opportunity to be baptized before they die then they are saved. However, If one believes and then shuns the oportunity to be baptized then I would highly doubt their salvation since they deliberately denied a nornative means of grace as layed out in the scriptures. That said I do not think the belief has to come before baptism. If you are baptised as an infant that is just as valid as a believers baptisim, since baptisim is an act of God and not a work of man God can act wheather the person is 10 days, 10 week, 10 years or 10 centuries.
_____________________________
There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church.
Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
www.iccec.com
www.cechome.com
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/26/2008 9:32:11 AM
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A_crucified_man
Posts: 164
Joined: 12/11/2007
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
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I'll say this in response to the other's who are claiming that it saves:
Water baptism isn't an act of grace - it is an act of obediance in response to an ordinance given by Jesus. I can't imagine a true, born-again believer not wanting to obey, but one's salvation wouldn't be in jeapordy if it were done in ignorance of what Scripture tells us. I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit would constantly deal with them until they responded with the proper attitude - this requires proper discipleship in accordance to what Scripture does say vs. false doctrine.
If you're saying it is required, then you're preaching another Gospel.
_____________________________
Derek
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."
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