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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/8/2008 3:05:54 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The reason for my statement is because in John 1:26, 31 and 33, John the baptizer specifically says he "baptized with water. If the word "baptize" defaults to meaning immersion with water, why would he add the phrase "with water". It is my understanding that the word was used to refer to an "identification", not merely immersion in water. He would add the phrase "with water" to differentiate what he was doing from what Jesus would do "with the Holy Spirit."
The point remains that John and Jesus were "identifying" people.
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Also, he differentiated his baptism with water with Jesus' baptism with the Holy Spirit. If we understand "baptize" as merely an immersion of some kind, do you think John means that Jesus will immerse us into the Holy Spirit? I don't think so. Since there are a number of both "wet" and "dry" baptisms found in Scripture, and since all of them indicate an identification of some kind, we should understand the word "baptize" to mean identification, not wet immersion. As a matter of fact, I do believe that John means the Jesus will immerse us into the Holy Spirit and that we will therefore be immersed in the Holy Spirit.
I think you have it backwards. The Holy Spirit is in us, we are not in Him. Positionally, we are "in Christ", but we aren't ever said to be positionally in the Holy Spirit. All the verses indicate that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. iow, He lives in us. We do not live in the Holy Spirit.
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Perhaps that's what's the matter with some Christians today. They are not really immersed in the Holy Spirit.
Could you provide any verses that say we are "in the Holy Spirit", outside of the 'baptize with' verses?
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Maybe there are some "dry" baptisms found in Scripture, but that doesn't change the meaning of the word from "immerse in water" to "identification."
You miss the point. All of the baptisms in Scripture are about identifications, some include water and some do not.
Yes, the root meaning IS immersion (into a liquid), but the common use in Scripture is to identify with something or someone.
John's followers were being identified with his teaching of repentance.
Why do you think they were being baptized? Just for getting wet? No, to identify with his teaching.
All baptisms in Scripture speak of an identification with something or someone.
The very fact that you agree that there are some dry baptisms in Scripture should end the discussion, since there is no water, nor immersion in the dry ones.
< Message edited by FreeGrace -- 5/8/2008 3:30:19 PM >
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/8/2008 3:54:02 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2322
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
The reason for my statement is because in John 1:26, 31 and 33, John the baptizer specifically says he "baptized with water. If the word "baptize" defaults to meaning immersion with water, why would he add the phrase "with water". It is my understanding that the word was used to refer to an "identification", not merely immersion in water.
Also, he differentiated his baptism with water with Jesus' baptism with the Holy Spirit. If we understand "baptize" as merely an immersion of some kind, do you think John means that Jesus will immerse us into the Holy Spirit? I don't think so. Since there are a number of both "wet" and "dry" baptisms found in Scripture, and since all of them indicate an identification of some kind, we should understand the word "baptize" to mean identification, not wet immersion.
Free Grace,
I didn't say that it defaults to immersion in water. I don't even think it defaults to immersion.
What I did say is that unless the context indicates otherwise or unless another term is specifically used, we should assume that the element is water.
Here is my statement: "I disagree entirely. Unless another term besides water is specifically mentioned with the term baptism, water should be assumed. That would be normative.
Obviously there are some metaphorical usages but those can be determined from context."
Obviously, the context of John the Baptist's statements shows that another element in addition to water is possible. For example, When Jesus spoke of His baptism of suffering, I was speaking of one of the metaphorical usages.
The term is used concerning of "washings" as in Hebrews 6:2. There, water isn't mentioned but the context obviously indicates water is in view. Sometimes, the explanation that "water isn't the norm" are used to argue against water baptism in Romans 6:1-4.
BTW, I am not saying that the "identification" issue isn't a necessary component in many of those biblical passages. You and I may differ only in how we would explain it. I believe that the identification issue IS IMPORTANT. However, I would disagree that the meaning of the term baptism means identification.
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Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/8/2008 4:03:09 PM
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GrahamCracker
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Free Grace,
With regard to whether or not the HS is in us, that is not a Lukean concept. It is Paulian.
Further, take a look at Peter's sermon quote of Joel in Acts 2:17 and 18.
Peter through looks narrative says of the HS, "I will pour out my Spirit UPON all flesh." He uses the term "pour out" twice. The metaphor there, using the HS as an analogy with water-- indicates that the method (whatever mode we suggest) is external. Unless you attempt to impose it on the text, Luke NEVER speaks of the HS indwelling (however John does). Please understand that I am not arguing against the indwelling, but I think we need to be careful about imposing our thinking onto the text.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 5/8/2008 5:35:00 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/8/2008 4:05:15 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 968
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The point remains that John and Jesus were "identifying" people. No, they were baptizing people. That may have resulted in the people identification, but the fact is, they were baptizing people.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/8/2008 4:45:19 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5055
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The point remains that John and Jesus were "identifying" people. No, they were baptizing people. That may have resulted in the people identification, but the fact is, they were baptizing people.
They were baptizing people to identify them with something.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/8/2008 6:24:59 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
They were baptizing people to identify them with something. So without that baptism were the people not identified with whatever it was? If baptism is identification then if we are not baptized, does that mean we are not identified? 
Since water baptism is just a ritual, it only represents an identification. We are identified with Christ whether or not we've been baptized.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/8/2008 11:32:25 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
Since water baptism is just a ritual, it only represents an identification. We are identified with Christ whether or not we've been baptized. OK, you've lost me, now. First you say baptism means identification then turn around and boldly state that identification takes place whether we're baptized or not. I'm afraid I don't get it. Does baptism mean identification or not? And if it does are we not identified if we're not baptized? If identification happens regardless of baptism, then baptism must not mean identification after all.
It just seems a whole lot easier and involves a lot less hermeneutical gyrations just to believe that baptism means immersion in water (unless specifically stated otherwise) and what Peter said in Acts 2:38 still applies to today.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/9/2008 4:39:16 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
It wasn't entirely new that the Holy Spirit indwelled believers. We have scriptural proof of this. And, since the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit(being "born again") is necessary for salvation - all believers, whether OT or NT, were indwelled or "born again".
And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you (John 14:16-17). Apparently Jesus' disciples were not yet saved since the Holy Spirit was not yet in them, but was simply abiding with them. My goodness, of course, they were saved at this time. This verse is not saying the apostles were not indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Christ here is getting ready to go to the Cross, He will be physically leaving the apostles - they were bereft. Christ consoles them by saying He will send "another" Comforter - in His place. One who will never leave them as Christ must now leave them. One who will be with them until they die.
Christ says the world does not "know" the Comforter but they do: "But ye know him for he dwelleth with you"(vs 17). He dwells in their hearts as regenerated believers. Now, "the spirit of Truth" will lead them into truth as they do the work of spreading the Gospel.
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Also, if the Holy Spirit indwelled Old Testament believers it seems strange the Jesus felt it necessary to inform His disciples that the Holy Spirit was still to come.
The Holy Spirit was there in Genesis 1:2. That He never left this world is evident from all the references to Him in the OT.
Since you don't believe the Holy Spirit indwelled OT believers what is your explanation for the following which says the Holy Spirit did indwell OT believers:
“But at last Daniel came before me (his name is Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god; in him is the Spirit of the Holy God), and I told the dream before him…” - Daniel 4:8
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. -Luke 1:15
....and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:....And she spake out with a loud voice... -Luke 1:41=42
And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, -Luke 1:67
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. -1Peter 1:11
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit. -1Corinthians 12:13
There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. -Ephesians 4:4-6
And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is? -Genesis 41:38
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: -Ezekiel 11:19
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. -Ezekiel 36:26
Take Joshua the son of Nun, in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him. -Numbers 17:18
As Christ was explaining the new birth to Nicodemus, Christ asked him: "Are you a teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand this?". IOW, Christ is saying this isn't a new teaching or does it require anything new. Any Israelite who has ever been saved had to be born again by God's Spirit. Otherwise how would they ever overcome their natural hostility to God?
No, the evidence is overwhelming that OT believers are saved the same as NT believers - by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Now, unless you are able to refute all of the above, I don't see how you can maintain your claim to the contrary. I've offered passage after passage; yet, frankly, you've offered only your opinion. What is your evidence that OT saints were not indwelled? And, what is your answer to all the above verses?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/9/2008 5:07:16 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
It just seems a whole lot easier and involves a lot less hermeneutical gyrations just to believe that baptism means immersion in water (unless specifically stated otherwise) and what Peter said in Acts 2:38 still applies to today. No one is using "gyrations" here. Why do think Scripture is not to be interpreted by comparing ALL Scripture?
There is no evidence, whatsoever, that "immersion" was the mode of baptism seen in the NT Scripture - none. You maintain otherwise, so, please supply your evidence.
You've simply made-up your own hard and fast rule that: "baptism means immersion in water (unless specifically stated otherwise)". Proper hermeneutics require taking the context into account.
It doesn't say "specifically", so, are we to understand the following verses are also referring to "water"? I don't think so.
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. -Matthew 20:22
And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. -Matthew 20:23
But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! -Luke 12:50
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: -1Peter 3:21
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. -1 Corinthians 12:13
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/9/2008 7:54:04 AM
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GrahamCracker
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Kelman,
Question coming, because I would imagine that you have read by now the Francis Schaffer link we discussed earlier.
Given that one of the meanings of baptizo is immerse (as attested by lexicons) and that water baptism of us pictures Christ's burial in the ground, what's wrong with practicing immersion as a mode? Wouldn't it be more likely to suppose that some people of the early church DID practice immersion?
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/9/2008 10:28:15 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5055
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
Since water baptism is just a ritual, it only represents an identification. We are identified with Christ whether or not we've been baptized. OK, you've lost me, now. First you say baptism means identification then turn around and boldly state that identification takes place whether we're baptized or not. I'm afraid I don't get it.
Sorry to confuse you. We are identified with Christ by means of the Holy Spirit who indwells and seals each believer. The ritual of baptism is an identification for the benefit of others who see it.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/9/2008 1:24:39 PM
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PeterD
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Paul spoke well here in 1 Corinthians 2:1-16
1 Corinthians 2:14
Wisdom from the Spirit
14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
I've always wondered about this teaching above and why Christians have a hard time agreeing when Christians claim to have the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Do all have the Holy Spirit even though they were baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. I bring this up because of the divisions in the church and who from these divisions is truely with the Spirit of God in Christ Jesus?
also,
Acts 2:37-39
37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."
38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
"in the name of Jesus Christ" is this the same as "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"???
Matthew 28:15-20
The Great Commission
16Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
PeterD
< Message edited by PeterD -- 5/9/2008 1:49:18 PM >
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/9/2008 6:56:02 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 968
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
My goodness, of course, they were saved at this time. This verse is not saying the apostles were not indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Christ here is getting ready to go to the Cross, He will be physically leaving the apostles - they were bereft. Christ consoles them by saying He will send "another" Comforter - in His place. One who will never leave them as Christ must now leave them. One who will be with them until they die. I guess what I'm not understanding here is why, if they are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, are they going to be bereft when Christ goes to the cross. Why does Christ console them saying He will send "another" Comforter, if they already have the Holy Spirit living within them? If "another" Comforter is the Holy Spirit, why is it necessary to send Him, if He's already here?
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/9/2008 7:00:37 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 968
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The Holy Spirit was there in Genesis 1:2. That He never left this world is evident from all the references to Him in the OT. Yes, the Holy Spirit was there in Genesis 1:2. And yes there are many references to Him in the Old Testament. It seems to me, though, that its just as valid to believe that He went back and forth between heaven and this world as it is to believe that He permanetly dwelled on this world after creation.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/9/2008 7:14:45 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 968
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Re: the Scriptures listed by kelman in post #410.
Daniel 4:8 is referring specifically to Daniel, not all Old Testament believers.
Luke 1:15 is referring specifically to John the Baptist, not all Old Testament believers.
Luke 1:41-42 us referring specifically to Elisabeth, not all Old Testament believers.
Luke 1:67 is referring specifically to Zacharias, not all Old Testament believers.
1 Corinthians 12:13 is referring specifically to New Testament believers, not Old Testament believers.
Genesis 41:38 is referring specifically to Joseph, not all Old Testament believers.
Numbers 17:18 is referring specifically to Joshua, not all Old Testament believers.
So, while its true that the Holy Spirit did perhaps indwell some people in the Old Testament, He did not indwell all Old Testament believers in the same way that He indwells all New Testament believers. Besides, some of the filling of the Holy Spirit was for a specific purpose and was not a permanent indwelling in the believer. I'm thinking specifically of Elisabeth and Zacharias.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/9/2008 7:20:11 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 968
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
You've simply made-up your own hard and fast rule that: "baptism means immersion in water (unless specifically stated otherwise)". Proper hermeneutics require taking the context into account. Contrary to popular belief I did not make up that rule. I'm just going along with such people as Albrecht Oepke, Gerald Beasley-Murray, and John Stott. They postulated that rule long before I ever thought of it.
And I always try to take context into account. That's why I believe what I believe. It's when I believed in faith only that I found my teachers ignoring the context in certain verses and that bothered me.
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greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/9/2008 7:25:01 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 968
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
It doesn't say "specifically", so, are we to understand the following verses are also referring to "water"? I don't think so.
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. -Matthew 20:22
And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. -Matthew 20:23
But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! -Luke 12:50
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: -1Peter 3:21
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. -1 Corinthians 12:13
Only 1 Peter 3:21 and 1 Corinthians 12:13 refer to water baptism. Context tells us that the other three references do not.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/10/2008 5:33:20 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Kelman,
Question coming, because I would imagine that you have read by now the Francis Schaffer link we discussed earlier.
Given that one of the meanings of baptizo is immerse (as attested by lexicons) and that water baptism of us pictures Christ's burial in the ground, what's wrong with practicing immersion as a mode? Wouldn't it be more likely to suppose that some people of the early church DID practice immersion?
I don't have a problem if people want to immerse. What I see as the problem is insisting it is the "only" method of water baptism or that it is at water baptism anyone gets saved.
Maybe they did practice immersion in the early church; but, perhaps they did so because they too misunderstood certain passages of Scripture. There doesn't exist one passage which would demand immersion.
As to "water baptism of us pictures Christ's burial in the ground,", I don't agree it is in reference to water because water baptism cannot wash away sins.
Col 2:11-12 "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
In those verses, we see that when Jesus was baptized(washed) of our sins, our sins were washed away. And so, even as He was buried and rose again as evidence that He had endured the second death, so we are buried with Him and are risen with Him. Or, to say it in a slightly different way, our sins were cut off(circumcised) when Christ had the sins cut off by paying for them.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/10/2008 5:35:50 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3139
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
My goodness, of course, they were saved at this time. This verse is not saying the apostles were not indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Christ here is getting ready to go to the Cross, He will be physically leaving the apostles - they were bereft. Christ consoles them by saying He will send "another" Comforter - in His place. One who will never leave them as Christ must now leave them. One who will be with them until they die. I guess what I'm not understanding here is why, if they are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, are they going to be bereft when Christ goes to the cross. Why does Christ console them saying He will send "another" Comforter, if they already have the Holy Spirit living within them? If "another" Comforter is the Holy Spirit, why is it necessary to send Him, if He's already here?
Something extraordinarily special was going to happen at Pentecost. All believers were henceforth qualified to declare God's Word; whereas, in the OT few were qualified to do so.
That "qualification" is included in the phrase "baptized with the Holy Spirit". Beginning with Pentecost they were not only indwelt by the Holy Spirit; but as they preached the Gospel many became saved because the Holy Spirit was in their midst applying the Word of God to those God was saving. That's why there was such an "explosion" of believers - 3,000. They became saved/baptized because the Holy Spirit was given.
Because this change in God's divine economy didn't take place until Pentecost, it could be said that the Apostles prior to Pentecost must still be baptized with the Holy Spirit as a future event. This is why Christ spoke as He did to the Apostles in John 14:16 about "sending the Comforter". And this is why in Acts 1:5 shortly before Christ ascended He could say: "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."
That's why Peter quoted from Joel about the "outpouring" of the Spirit upon all flesh. Peter is saying we've entered the last days. The Messiah has come, He has accomplished redemption, He has risen and ascended. And before He comes again in glory, this period will be marked by this incomparable outpouring of the Spirit.
And the people of God in this period are to be a people born of the Spirit, baptized in the Spirit, filled with the Spirit, empowered by the Spirit to bear witness to the light of this glorious Gospel.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/10/2008 5:39:15 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3139
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Re: the Scriptures listed by kelman in post #410.
Daniel 4:8 is referring specifically to Daniel, not all Old Testament believers.
Luke 1:15 is referring specifically to John the Baptist, not all Old Testament believers.
Luke 1:41-42 us referring specifically to Elisabeth, not all Old Testament believers.
Luke 1:67 is referring specifically to Zacharias, not all Old Testament believers.
Genesis 41:38 is referring specifically to Joseph, not all Old Testament believers.
Numbers 17:18 is referring specifically to Joshua, not all Old Testament believers. I understand the verses speak of individuals. I used these verses to indicate that the Holy Spirit did indwell believers in the OT. It's the "accumulation" of evidence to support the OT indwelling I was hoping to supply; and, I believe I did.
quote:
So, while its true that the Holy Spirit did perhaps indwell some people in the Old Testament, He did not indwell all Old Testament believers in the same way that He indwells all New Testament believers.
Gd, with all the above references, I don't think the word "perhaps" is suitable :) And, I absolutely agree that there is a difference; and, that difference is the extent or magnitude of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit beginning at Pentecost.
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Besides, some of the filling of the Holy Spirit was for a specific purpose and was not a permanent indwelling in the believer. I'm thinking specifically of Elisabeth and Zacharias.
Exactly....except for "not a permanent indwelling in the believer". To be a believer one must be indwelled by the Holy Spirit otherwise he would not be a true believer. But, not every OT believer was "filled" with the Spirit as were the prophets. Only they were qualified to declare the Word of God; but, at Pentecost ALL believers are qualified to declare the Word of God.
This is precisely why we see Elisabeth who "spake out with a loud voice" and Zacharias who "prophesied, saying...." are said to be "filled with the Spirit" because they were going to declare the Word of God.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/10/2008 5:41:59 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3139
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
You've simply made-up your own hard and fast rule that: "baptism means immersion in water (unless specifically stated otherwise)". Proper hermeneutics require taking the context into account. Contrary to popular belief I did not make up that rule. I'm just going along with such people as Albrecht Oepke, Gerald Beasley-Murray, and John Stott. They postulated that rule long before I ever thought of it.
And I always try to take context into account. That's why I believe what I believe. It's when I believed in faith only that I found my teachers ignoring the context in certain verses and that bothered me.
Okay, then "they" made up their hard and fast rule :)
What's "faith only" have to do with this? Faith is simply the evidence we've been born again or baptized with the Holy Spirit.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/10/2008 8:54:35 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 968
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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