RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (Full Version)

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jfaye -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 10:25:59 AM)

I appreciate all the 'enthusiastic' responding to this thread, but I probably didn't make
myself really clear in my OP!

I'm looking for those, like LL and Jimbo, who have experienced salvation apart from
baptism, something you know is true, having the Holy Spirit within you, before following
His prompting to be baptized!

My contention is, that we are saved and follow through with the VERY IMPORTANT step to make
a public and tangible identification with Christ in baptism. I was saved and baptized the same day
being a good Southern Baptist at the time, but never thought of it as the moment I received His
Spirit. I was definitely filled with an indescribable joy, the morning of the decision, and couldn't
wait to get home to tell my mother, who was less than enthused at what she feared was an
indoctrination of a young mind, but was eager to be baptized at the evening service the same day!

I'm just wondering how it was for some of us! I also 'experienced' another 'cleansing' type of
'feeling' while at college when I began to doubt my salvation, because I found myself questioning
if I were truly saved--I was angry with the Lord for not making it clear to me, by a profound
'feeling' as a mature person. I was initially saved (I believe) when I was 12 yrs. old. I look back
and can clearly see that my whole perspective changed at that time. I had been a very troubled
young person, having come from a home where my foather was abusive and such, my parents
divorced when I was 10 yrs. old, and my mother remarried within 18 months. My brother died
who was 9 yrs. old, not long after her remarrying and then I was saved that summer after.

Anyway, I remember the night where my anger was at it's height toward the Lord. I remember
sorting through my closet of clothes to pick out something to wear to dinner. I flung clothes back
and forth and prayed, "Okay Lord--if you are not going to truly save me, in a way I know it to be
a fact then just take me now! I can't live with an 'axe hanging over my head' like this, 'feeling' if
I die I will be damned. I can't stand the wait--just do it!"

Oh, and I had not fallen into iniquity from my first 'salvation-experience'! I was heavily involved in
church activities, from 12 yrs. on, having been a 'front-row sitter' by choice apart from many of my friends
who preferred to sit in the back row and pass notes during the services. But, as an 18-yr. old, I lacked
the 'joy' I saw many others seem to have on campus!

My room mate, asked me (while I was thrashing) to go with her to attend the prayer chapel service they had
on Wednesday evenings, which I had never attended before. It was to pray for the needs of many missionaries
on the field. I thought--"Why not--I've nothing else to do be sit and think and be angry"!

I went, but things were different that night. There was an actual missionary there to speak of his ministry needs.
What he actually did was say that he was feeling compelled to talk about the love of the Lord and His desire to save.
He said he felt there was someone, there, who needed that assurance in this group of about 30 people. I fell apart.
I knew it was me! I went forward afterwards to talk with Him and pray the 'sinners' prayer'! When I left
that place I promise you, I felt like I was walking about 3 ft. off the ground. I rushed to my dorm to tell others
I had been 'saved'! There was a fireworks display that night, before Thanksgiving and it was this campus'
tradition to do the fireworks! I honestly felt like they were just for me to behold as my joy was so real as
to be physical swelling within me! This 'feeling' of being 100% pure, carried over to the next day as I walked
across the campus the next morning and I remember praying as I looked up at the crystal clear sky on a very,
very cold day and thinking, "This feeling cannot last forever and I'm going to mess it up very soon--I hate to
lose it so much!"

Of course, the reality is that it couldn't be maintained--this 'feeling' of cleanness, but now I am left with
'What was it I experienced'? Was it truly salvation for the first time, and real and the first time I made
an honest and sincere confession and baptism was not real? If the first was not 'real' then I never was baptized
after the second 'experience' and yet, His Spirit is absolutely in me!

I do not believe we are saved and lost and saved again! That is not logical in God's economy. If we could be
saved and lost, why would He ever save us in the first place to lose us again?

Please--do not make this a OSAS discussion, I am just making clear that one of these two incidences
was the 'real deal'! Either the first, or the second. If the second, then I never was baptized afterwards!

Do I lack the Holy Spirit for the lack of water baptism, if it was the second 'experience'--absolutely NOT!!!!

Am I confusing everyone with this 'salvation experiences'?



WildByNature -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 10:53:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jfaye
Are you saved but not baptized? If so, do you believe you have the Holy Spirit
indwelling you having 'believed' but not yet baptized?


The common error is to falsely assume the word "baptize" inherently has "water" as its exclusive means -- it does not. There are other means of baptism besides water recorded in scripture. In other words, every time you read a form of the word "baptize", it doesn't necessarily refer to water baptism.

Eph 4:5 says there is only ONE baptism -- John baptized with water, Jesus said He baptizes with the HS and fire.

So which is the ONE baptism? Obviously the HS is more important than water, so the baptism of the HS is the ONE baptism a believer must have to be saved.

One CAN be saved if not baptized in water, but one CANNOT be saved if not baptized in the HS.

EDITED TO CLARIFY:
When I speak of baptism in the HS, I am referring to the gift of the indwelling of the HS given to all who are born again by confessing their faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior.



drmark -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 12:31:04 PM)

quote:

Baptism is the normative way God's grace is conferred to us.
This is patently false since, by definition, grace is unearned, unmerited and undeserved favor. There is NOTHING we can do for God to confer or bestow grace on us! However, we do have a part to play in appropriating God's grace to our spiritual condition. That part is called FAITH and nothing in Scripture states that faith requires getting wet. It is "normative" for Christians to demonstrate their faith by undergoing baptism. That is a huge difference from God conferring grace to us during a human endeavor.

quote:

Of course, the reality is that it couldn't be maintained--this 'feeling' of cleanness, but now I am left with
'What was it I experienced'? Was it truly salvation for the first time, and real and the first time I made
an honest and sincere confession and baptism was not real? If the first was not 'real' then I never was baptized
after the second 'experience' and yet, His Spirit is absolutely in me
Well, Janice, I think we've discussed this before on another thread. I believe that your "second experience" likely represents what I call in our Wesleyan/Holiness tradition "entire sanctification" or "second blessing holiness" (an older term). It is often, but not always, equated with Baptism of the Holy Spirit and is a definite second work of grace which occurs after initial salvation. The concepts of cleansing, purifying, and perfecting are also intimately involved with this specific event. My final point would be that God may choose to bestow His cleansing and sanctifying grace in many ways other than taught and preached in my denominational heritage and in no way do I believe that this mechanism is the only valid way for sanctification to occur.



A_crucified_man -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 12:50:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WildByNature

quote:

ORIGINAL: jfaye
Are you saved but not baptized? If so, do you believe you have the Holy Spirit
indwelling you having 'believed' but not yet baptized?


The common error is to falsely assume the word "baptize" inherently has "water" as its exclusive means -- it does not. There are other means of baptism besides water recorded in scripture. In other words, every time you read a form of the word "baptize", it doesn't necessarily refer to water baptism.

Eph 4:5 says there is only ONE baptism -- John baptized with water, Jesus said He baptizes with the HS and fire.

So which is the ONE baptism? Obviously the HS is more important than water, so the baptism of the HS is the ONE baptism a believer must have to be saved.

One CAN be saved if not baptized in water, but one CANNOT be saved if not baptized in the HS.

EDITED TO CLARIFY:

When I speak of baptism in the HS, I am referring to the gift of the indwelling of the HS given to all who are born again by confessing their faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior.


You are absolutely correct in saying that "baptize" doesn't always mean "water" in the literal sense. The Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ, and Christ baptizes us with the Holy Spirit - both baptisms are spiritual in nature and separate acts of grace performed by God, not man.

But, I've been taught that that particular Scripture is talking about being Baptized with the Holy Spirit by Christ (with the physical evidence of speaking in other tongues) which can only take place after conversion.



WildByNature -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 1:49:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man
But, I've been taught that that particular Scripture is talking about being Baptized with the Holy Spirit by Christ (with the physical evidence of speaking in other tongues) which can only take place after conversion.

Well, I can't address the speaking in tongues in this thread [8D] -- so I'll just point out that is why I clarified what I meant by being baptized in the HS. I do believe in a second "filling" (as opposed to the initial "indwelling") that can occur anytime after being born again, but it is not salvific. I, too, used to speak of the "filling" as the "baptism" in the HS until I was rightly corrected as to my choice of words. Since there is only ONE baptism, and all must have it to be saved, then the second "filling" is not the baptism of the HS -- since not ALL receive the "filling".



A_crucified_man -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 2:14:23 PM)

I'll have to revisit it as it relates to the ONE baptism, but there are to my understanding, FOUR Baptism's:

* A Baptism of Repentance (Christ's salvation by means of our acknowledgement of sin and our need of forgiveness)

* The Believers Baptism (the one being discussed here and is symbolic of the believer becoming identified with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection)

* A Baptism of Suffering (the believer's preparation for the cross and is part of our dying-out process; He must increase, but I must decrease)

* The Baptism of the Holy Spirit (aforementioned as the "infilling" which associates the believer with Christ in power and authority, resulting in a fruitful life and an effective ministry. I've been taught that it always follows with the physical evidence of speaking in other tongues which also allows us to operate in the other Gifts of the Spirit as He wills).



lgpreacherman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 2:15:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Baptism is the normative way God's grace is conferred to us.
This is patently false since, by definition, grace is unearned, unmerited and undeserved favor. There is NOTHING we can do for God to confer or bestow grace on us! However, we do have a part to play in appropriating God's grace to our spiritual condition. That part is called FAITH and nothing in Scripture states that faith requires getting wet. It is "normative" for Christians to demonstrate their faith by undergoing baptism. That is a huge difference from God conferring grace to us during a human endeavor.


No it is not patently false! the definition of a sacrament as it has been for 2000 years is the outwardsign of an inner grace. it is the conference of Grace Just as the Supper is a means of grace but you still ned to actively partake of it. Ths is why infant baptism is legit because there is nothing the infant can do to merit grace it is done because God said to do it and in doing it Grace is confered.



A_crucified_man -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 2:18:06 PM)

I personally don't hate the Catholic Church - I hate their many false doctrines and that millions of souls are being damned to an eternity in hell because of them.



A_crucified_man -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 2:19:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Baptism is the normative way God's grace is conferred to us.
This is patently false since, by definition, grace is unearned, unmerited and undeserved favor. There is NOTHING we can do for God to confer or bestow grace on us! However, we do have a part to play in appropriating God's grace to our spiritual condition. That part is called FAITH and nothing in Scripture states that faith requires getting wet. It is "normative" for Christians to demonstrate their faith by undergoing baptism. That is a huge difference from God conferring grace to us during a human endeavor.


No it is not patently false! the definition of a sacrament as it has been for 2000 years is the outwardsign of an inner grace. it is the conference of Grace Just as the Supper is a means of grace but you still ned to actively partake of it. Ths is why infant baptism is legit because there is nothing the infant can do to merit grace it is done because God said to do it and in doing it Grace is confered.


Infant baptism isn't legit because it isn't found in Scripture and communion isn't about grace - it's about obediance to an ordinance given by Jesus; identical to water baptism.



drmark -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 2:22:01 PM)

quote:

No it is not patently false! the definition of a sacrament as it has been for 2000 years is the outwardsign of an inner grace.
Exactly, the grace has already been conferred and appropriated. The participant in baptism is merely acknowledging God's salvific grace with an outward symbolic gesture of human obedience.



LBolt -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 2:54:13 PM)

I concur with you Drmark. I've always been taught that the "one baptism" refers to us being immersed into the body of Christ. As a result of your inward witness or profession, water baptism would soon follow.

When I got saved in my Grandmother house (and a week later baptized), I read my children's Bible from cover to cover and couldn't shut up because I spoke about Jesus! I guess I wasn't saved when I believe until I got baptized!? [8|]



lgpreacherman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 3:05:03 PM)

Maybe you should all read my first post where I said you can be saved before baptism.



jfaye -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 3:33:13 PM)

Hey Mark or is that your last name? Anyway, yes you and I have dialogued about
something similar to what I've described above, but that was, in fact, the third
of three major events that took me a step forward in my growth, I believe.

The third event I chronicled on the 'Entire Sanctification' Thread! Here is part of my response:


quote:


"...it was at the point of my confessing to Him, that I did not know HOW
to love Him, despite knowing how much He loves me. He instantaneously
flashed in my mind's eye, my whole life, or the parts where I hurt the most
and thought He was not there. It was like nothing ever in my life, and I am
not of the 'charismatic' persuasion so it was nothing I was looking for! He
spoke to my heart, that He'd ALWAYS been there, through it all! That in turn
filled my heart with an unspeakable love, a feeling' I thought I had to have
in order to love Him as He deserves. To love Him, I know, is to obey Him, so
I understood that part but I did so much want to feel a deep love for Him and
HE PROVIDED it for me in that instant! I think it always has to come from Him
because we are just so incapable of that kind of love, unless it comes from Him."



This event happened when I was about 34 years, and the one I've related in my
previous post was at the age of 18 years. Saved at 12 (?), ramped up at 18 and
a huge leap at age 34! It's sort of like the Lord gives us rope, to wander a bit out
from His side, then He gives a 'yank' to pull us back and each time we are less
prone to wander! This last 'yank' was 26-27 years ago! Oops, now you know how
old I am! My birthday is coming up this week, in fact! Getting older, and feeling
it some days but in my spirit, I'm still 27! Spiritually---hmmmm, I'm 48, today! [;)]

[Edited to correct my math calculations! Yikes]



drmark -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 3:44:38 PM)

quote:

Anyway, yes you and I have dialogued about
something similar to what I've described above, but that was, in fact, the third
of three major events that took me a step forward in my growth, I believe.
Which is precisely why we should not limit God to 1, 2, 3 or whatever outpourings of the Holy Spirit. The bottom line is total consecration and commitment to loving God and neighbor with all our being. That is true Christian faith, however God graciously enables us to experience it!



A_crucified_man -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 3:50:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman

Maybe you should all read my first post where I said you can be saved before baptism.


That's what you said but you also stated that infant baptism is the same as the believers baptism and they are not.

They're too young to make a conscious decision concerning the Lord Jesus Christ and water doesn't wash away sin; only remitted blood can do that and only the blood of the Lamb can suffice. That is why Jesus said to let all of the little children come unto Him.



lgpreacherman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 4:35:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man

quote:

ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman

Maybe you should all read my first post where I said you can be saved before baptism.


That's what you said but you also stated that infant baptism is the same as the believers baptism and they are not.

They're too young to make a conscious decision concerning the Lord Jesus Christ and water doesn't wash away sin; only remitted blood can do that and only the blood of the Lamb can suffice. That is why Jesus said to let all of the little children come unto Him.


So then you believe in works righteousness! With this line of thinking it is not about God doing for us but it is all about the person being able to say yes I belive. It is all about The Person coming to God, not God going to the person.



jfaye -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 4:48:28 PM)

quote:

So then you believe in works righteousness! With this line of thinking it is not about God doing for us but it is all about the person being able to say yes I belive. It is all about The Person coming to God, not God going to the person.


If infant baptism saves, then how come there are so many who have undergone it and never
bore fruit in their lives, consistent with one who loves and follows God, having a love for Him above
all else? I don't feel we can call down God on another person. It is a work of God between Himself
and a person, His drawing them to Himself and them responding in a faith furnished of Himself.

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God"!



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 5:16:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jfaye

I'm looking for those, like LL and Jimbo, who have experienced salvation apart from
baptism, something you know is true, having the Holy Spirit within you, before following
His prompting to be baptized!

I certainly have no desire to detract from anyone's testimony, but I learned a long time ago the experience can sometimes be wrong, but Scripture never is. I have had the experience of thinking that I had the Holy Spirit without the benefit of baptism in water. But when I started reading the Scriptures in earnest and studying them, I found that my experience was incorrect. So, in my view, experience never trumps scripture.



JimboFletch -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 5:44:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: jfaye

I'm looking for those, like LL and Jimbo, who have experienced salvation apart from
baptism, something you know is true, having the Holy Spirit within you, before following
His prompting to be baptized!

I certainly have no desire to detract from anyone's testimony, but I learned a long time ago the experience can sometimes be wrong, but Scripture never is. I have had the experience of thinking that I had the Holy Spirit without the benefit of baptism in water. But when I started reading the Scriptures in earnest and studying them, I found that my experience was incorrect. So, in my view, experience never trumps scripture.

It could also be that your understanding of scripture isn't correct.

When I was indwelt by God the Holy Spirit with power, I knew it. And no water had been applied. And I haven't had a subsequent indwelling since.

So either a demonic spirit entered me when I repented and received Jesus as Lord and Savior and it has led me in the ways of Christ for 41 years OR my understanding of baptism is correct.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 5:47:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WildByNature

The common error is to falsely assume the word "baptize" inherently has "water" as its exclusive means -- it does not. There are other means of baptism besides water recorded in scripture. In other words, every time you read a form of the word "baptize", it doesn't necessarily refer to water baptism.


Actually it is not an error to assume that the word "baptize" inherently means with water. None other than the German theologian and Greek scholar Albrecht Oepke says that the Greek word transliterated "baptize" technically means with water.

I understand that there are instances where the word is used as a figure of speech and does not include water. For example, Jesus referring to His sufferings as a baptism. And the baptism of Moses may or may not have included water. But whenever the word "baptism" or its cognates is used in its literal sense it is always safe to assume that it means with water.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 6:00:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man

communion isn't about grace - it's about obediance to an ordinance given by Jesus; identical to water baptism.

It's interesting that you say communion is an ordinance identical to baptism. Jesus said in Matthew 26:28, "for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

And Peter said in Acts 2:38, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins."

The phrase "for the forgiveness of sins" is identical word for word in the Greek. So whatever Jesus blood has to do with the forgiveness of sins, baptism as the same relationship with the forgiveness of sins.



GraceBro -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 9:22:47 PM)

I am one who never got baptized after being saved. I left the church I attended at the time I was saved prior to being baptized. As I grew in my faith I realized that is a symbolic gesture not required for salvation or afterwards as an "act of obedience." The restoration of the spirit of life occurs the moment one accepts Christ by faith.

Water baptism was carried over into the Church by the early Christians who were Jews. In Judaism, in order for a Gentile to become a Jew, they had to be baptized because they were thought to be "unclean." Naturally, this practice continued in the early Church. However, in Acts 10 and 11 you see Peter finally realize, after his vision, that Gentiles could receive the Holy Spirit apart from being baptised.

As was mentioned before, there is only "one baptism." You have the baptism of the Holy Spirit and water baptism. Only one saves. We have to ask ourselves some questions. Who died on the cross for our sins? Jesus. Who rose from the dead to offer us His life? Jesus. Who baptizes us with the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ? Jesus. Who water baptizes us? Our pastor. I think you get my point.

Grace and Peace



Ps103 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/26/2008 11:43:30 PM)

A couple of people have posted something like "It isn't required, it is an ordinance of Jesus'" or something similar.

How exactly are you defining "ordinance?"



WildByNature -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/27/2008 12:35:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man
I'll have to revisit it as it relates to the ONE baptism, but there are to my understanding, FOUR Baptism's:

Actually, there are references to more than FOUR baptisms in scripture; however, we are told there is only ONE that is necessary. Since Scripture does not contradict itself ... which ONE is the necessary ONE?

We know that the baptism of fire is not desired by Christians, and not necessary for us to go through.

We know that the baptism for the dead is a reference to a pagan practice and, therefore, not necessary for Christians.

We know that the baptism of Moses was a symbolic reference to Christ's delivering us through judgment and not an actual act of baptism that would be necessary.

So we can begin with ruling those out as being necessary.

As to the baptisms you mentioned:

quote:

* A Baptism of Repentance (Christ's salvation by means of our acknowledgement of sin and our need of forgiveness)

This was the baptism of John the Baptist. This baptism was no longer valid after the death of Christ as is shown in Acts 19:3-5. Those disciples were baptized by John, but that wasn't what was needed -- they needed to believe on Jesus who baptizes with the HS instead of water.

quote:

* The Believers Baptism (the one being discussed here and is symbolic of the believer becoming identified with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection)

I have yet to find this baptism mentioned in scripture. As such, I cannot consider this baptism to be valid or necessary. I would be open to your offering the books, chapters and verses that you believe this doctrine to be based upon but it may take this thread too far off subject.

quote:

* A Baptism of Suffering (the believer's preparation for the cross and is part of our dying-out process; He must increase, but I must decrease)

This baptism was what Christ had to go through. (Matt 20:17-24) Jesus was specifically addressing His 12 disciples regarding if they were able to undergo this baptism. They didn't realize what they were asking. The "mother of Zebedee" was the mother of the disciples James and John. The "cup" Christ had to drink was the cup of martyrdom. Jesus was actually preparing them for how they would die. James was the first of the 12 to meet the martyr’s death (Acts 12:2) and John, if the reports about him are true, the last. It is not necessary for us to become martyrs for Christ in order to be saved.

quote:

* The Baptism of the Holy Spirit (aforementioned as the "infilling" which associates the believer with Christ in power and authority, resulting in a fruitful life and an effective ministry. I've been taught that it always follows with the physical evidence of speaking in other tongues which also allows us to operate in the other Gifts of the Spirit as He wills).

Again, I cannot address the "tongues" issue in this thread. However, this is the only baptism that is necessary in order to be saved. As to your belief that it is the "infilling" I spoke of, and my belief that the "infilling" is separate from the baptism, consider this ...

1Cor 12:13: For also by one Spirit we all were baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink into one Spirit.

We are baptized by the HS into the body of Christ when we are given His Spirit through our believing on Him as our Lord and Savior. One Lord, one faith, one baptism.



WildByNature -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (3/27/2008 1:06:38 AM)

Hello again, greatdivide46:
quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Actually it is not an error to assume that the word "baptize" inherently means with water.

Well, I still believe it is an error to make that assumption. We've discussed this at length a while back, if you recall. Unfortunatley, despite the evidence I offered to the contrary, your insistence that one must be irrationally "baptized-in-water in water" doesn't leave much room for further discussion. So, I will respectfully decline to engage you in this topic again and will leave you to your belief.

quote:

I understand that there are instances where the word is used as a figure of speech and does not include water. For example, Jesus referring to His sufferings as a baptism.

Jesus' baptism of suffering was more than a figure of speech -- He was literally immersed (baptized) in suffering -- to the point of His resulting death. Not just a figure of speech in my opinion.

quote:

And the baptism of Moses may or may not have included water.

It definately didn't. Moses and his people were protected by God as they walked through the water on dry land. None of them got wet -- except for Pharaoh's troops. (The water in that story being symbolic of God's judgment.)

quote:

But whenever the word "baptism" or its cognates is used in its literal sense it is always safe to assume that it means with water.

Playing it "safe" is just another way of saying ignorance is bliss, in my opinion. I've never been one to sit back and play it safe when it comes to interpreting the Bible. [:D]



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