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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 8:54:29 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I wish you were kidding, but I know you really don't know about this. What does Acts 10:43 mean to you? All the OT prophets knew that forgiveness was through faith in Him.
To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name (Acts 10:43). It means that the prophets foretold the coming of the Messiah and that after He came their sins would be forgiven through His name instead of the way it was done in the Old Testament. A new way of salvation.
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Also, what does Rom 4:13 mean to you, and especially, Heb 11:24-26?
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith (Romans 4:13) Means that the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham was based on Abraham's righteousness of faith, not on his obedience to any law.
Hebrews 11:24-26 tells us the Moses was looking forward to the reward of the Messiah. And probably most of the Old Testament saints were doing the same thing. So, how can we know that Cornelius wasn't? And if he wasn't how do we know that, because Acts 10:2 certainly seems to indicate that he was.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 9:03:14 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1187
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Not so fast, gd. How about Acts 2:47, 4:4, 6:7, 5:14, 9:31, 9:35, and 9:42? There isn't any mention of water baptism in any of these passages. What say you? So, just because baptism isn't mentioned in these verses, do you really think it wasn't happening? As I recall you said that baptism is necessary as some kind of sign or symbol or something. Personally, I think, after the promise of Acts 2:38, that the Apostles and other leaders of the young church would hardly put baptism on a back burner and tell people that they didn't really need to do it. I think the fact that it's not mentioned is an indication of the fact that virtually everyone understood baptism's role in salvation, therefore it was unnecessary to say it.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 9:08:04 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Everyone born is condemned to hell. John 3:18, 36.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God (John 3:18). This verse presupposes the ability to believe or disbelieve which I hardly think people are born with.
"presuppose"? Why do you say that? please note that Jesus directly linked what Moses did in the desert with the bronze serpent on a pole with what He was going to do on the cross. Review Num 21:5-9. How were the people saved from physical death? By looking at the serpent. How are people saved from hell? By believing in Christ. Jesus directly linked the two things. In both cases, our deliverance (being saved) is by looking/believing. Both can be done by people.
If people cannot believe, then why did Jesus link what Moses did with what he was going to do?
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Therefore, while this verses states the unbelievers are condemned to hell, it says nothing about being born condemned to hell.
When you take the whole council of God, it's there. Eph 2 says we are dead in our sins. What does that mean to you? What does John 3:36 say to you?
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Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (John 3:36). This verse presupposes not only the ability to believe or disbelieve but also knowledge of the Son and the ability to obey or disobey. Therefore, while this verse states that not obeying the Son results in not seeing life, it says nothing about having these abilities at birth. Therefore, I don't think this verse says we are born condemned to hell, either.
Who has any "abilities" at birth? Come on rw, be reasonable. We aren't talking about infants here.
If man is unable to believe, why did Jesus warn a group of unbelievers in John 8:24 that "unless you believe in Me, you will die in your sins".
otoh, if man is unable to repent, why did Jesus give Jezebel "time to repent" in Rev 2:21?
Your view or "presupposition" doesn't match what Scripture indicates.
btw, if you don't think man is condemned to hell at birth, how do you think man IS condemned to hell? Thanks.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/21/2008 9:21:25 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1187
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
btw, if you don't think man is condemned to hell at birth, how do you think man IS condemned to hell? Thanks. I think he's condemned to hell for his own sins. Therefore until one is capable of sin and knows it's sin, he is not condemned to hell.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 7:58:13 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Who has any "abilities" at birth? Come on rw, be reasonable. We aren't talking about infants here. Sorry I misunderstood. I assumed that when you said "everyone is born condemned to hell" that you just naturally included infants in that. My bad 
I do include infants. That's what being "born into condemnation" means. But infants have no ability to believe. When do people actually begin to sin? I think the sin nature (Adam's nature) is present quite early. How early does a child stomp their foot and say "no" to their parent's command?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 8:11:54 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
btw, if you don't think man is condemned to hell at birth, how do you think man IS condemned to hell? Thanks. I think he's condemned to hell for his own sins. Therefore until one is capable of sin and knows it's sin, he is not condemned to hell.
How do you understand Rom 5? Note v.15 "For if by the transgression of the one (Adam) the many died (everyone)".
We are condemned because we have a sin nature, courtesy of Adam's transgression. We sin because we have a nature to sin. It's not the other way around; that we have a sin nature because we sin.
iow, because we have a sin nature, we sin. We do not have a sin nature because we sin.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 8:26:48 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
I do include infants. That's what being "born into condemnation" means. But infants have no ability to believe. When do people actually begin to sin? I think the sin nature (Adam's nature) is present quite early. How early does a child stomp their foot and say "no" to their parent's command? I agree with you as far as the sin nature is concerned. I think we are born with it. However, I also believe that the atonement covers all the results of Adam's sin, except for physical death. People are condemned, not for their sin nature, but for their own sin. If you want to believe that a child is condemned to hell for stomping their foot and saying "no" to their parent's command, I can accept that. I may not agree with it, but I suppose it's within the realm of possibility.
< Message edited by greatdivide46 -- 5/22/2008 8:56:33 AM >
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 8:48:19 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1187
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
How do you understand Rom 5? Note v.15 "For if by the transgression of the one (Adam) the many died (everyone)". Concentrating on Romans 5:12-19 I ask myself the question: "What is the purpose of this passage in relation to Romans as a whole?" I believe the Paul is continuing the theme of assurance that he started at the beginning of chapter 5. In the first eleven verses Paul assures us that we can put all our hope and confidence in one saving act (the cross) of one man (Jesus Christ). In those eleven verses he makes reference to the saving efficacy of Christ and his cross ten times. He is in effect asking us to believe that one act of just one man has the power to save the whole world from all its sins.
Paul, in order to show that that's not such a far fetched idea as we might first think, calls attention to another man whose one act has already been demonstrated to have a universal effect upon the human race, namely, Adam. Then he uses this by way of comparison and contrast to show that the "one righteous act" of the one man, Jesus, will surely be just as efficacious and universal as the "one sinful act" of the one man, Adam -- and even "much more" (vv. 15, 17). Paul's argument moves from the lesser to the greater. If we can accept the fact that the one sin of a mere man brought sin and death upon the whole world, then surely we can believe that the atoning death of the Son of God has brought salvation upon the whole world. To me the purpose of this passage is to increase our confidence in the all-sufficiency of the death of Christ.
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We are condemned because we have a sin nature, courtesy of Adam's transgression. We sin because we have a nature to sin. It's not the other way around; that we have a sin nature because we sin.
iow, because we have a sin nature, we sin. We do not have a sin nature because we sin. I don't agree that we are condemned because we have a sin nature, although I do believe that we sin because we have a sin nature. I don't believe that we are condemned because of Adam's sin. I believe we are condemned because of our own sin, which naturally flows out of our sin nature, brought on because of Adam's sin.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 9:01:34 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1187
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
How do you understand Rom 5? Note v.15 "For if by the transgression of the one (Adam) the many died (everyone)".
Some further thoughts in Romans 5. I don't think it really matters what one's view of the sin nature is. Paul's main point in this chapter is: Whatever the whole human race got (or would have gotten) from Adam has been completely canceled out for the whole human race by the gracious atoning work of Jesus Christ. So a person can make Adam's legacy as dire as they want: physical death, total depravity, genuine guilt, condemnation to hell. The whole point of Romans 5 is that Christ's "one act of righteousness" (v. 18) has completely intercepted, nullified, negated, canceled, and counteracted whatever was destined to be ours because of Adam. All the potential spiritual consequences of Adam's sin are intercepted even before they can be applied. The only consequence that actually takes effect is physical death, and it is countered with the promise of resurrection to eternal life.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 10:43:20 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
I do include infants. That's what being "born into condemnation" means. But infants have no ability to believe. When do people actually begin to sin? I think the sin nature (Adam's nature) is present quite early. How early does a child stomp their foot and say "no" to their parent's command? I agree with you as far as the sin nature is concerned. I think we are born with it. However, I also believe that the atonement covers all the results of Adam's sin, except for physical death. People are condemned, not for their sin nature, but for their own sin.
Since you agree that man is born with a sinful nature, that in itself is condemning, because that means we are not perfect, as Adam was created. We cannot live with God with an imperfect/fallen/sinful nature. That's why we need to be regenerated. We are spiritually dead, per Eph 2. John 4:24 says we can only worship God in spirit and in truth. iow, we must be regenerated in order to worship God in the fullest sense. Without a regenerated spirit, we are condemned. So I continue to disagree with you.
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If you want to believe that a child is condemned to hell for stomping their foot and saying "no" to their parent's command, I can accept that. I may not agree with it, but I suppose it's within the realm of possibility.
My point is that a child can and does fairly early on exhibit their sin nature.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 3:46:51 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1187
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Since you agree that man is born with a sinful nature, that in itself is condemning, because that means we are not perfect, as Adam was created. I agree, but the atonement took care of our sin nature and we are viewed as perfect when we are born even though we're not.
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We cannot live with God with an imperfect/fallen/sinful nature. That's why we need to be regenerated. I agree. We do need to be regenerated -- once we have committed our own sins.
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We are spiritually dead, per Eph 2. John 4:24 says we can only worship God in spirit and in truth. iow, we must be regenerated in order to worship God in the fullest sense. Without a regenerated spirit, we are condemned. I agree.
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So I continue to disagree with you. That's certainly you're right, but I've agreed with everything in this post. What is it that you continue to disagree with me about?
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 3:52:38 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Since you agree that man is born with a sinful nature, that in itself is condemning, because that means we are not perfect, as Adam was created. I agree, but the atonement took care of our sin nature and we are viewed as perfect when we are born even though we're not.
No, Christ died for the sins of the world, not for our sin nature. John 1:29, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world". 1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
Neither verse speaks of our sinful nature, but of our sins, personal.
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We cannot live with God with an imperfect/fallen/sinful nature. That's why we need to be regenerated. I agree. We do need to be regenerated -- once we have committed our own sins.
Nope. See above. Christ died for our sins, not our nature.
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So I continue to disagree with you. That's certainly you're right, but I've agreed with everything in this post. What is it that you continue to disagree with me about?
Your belief that Christ died for our sin natures.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 4:08:06 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
No, Christ died for the sins of the world, not for our sin nature. John 1:29, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world". 1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
Neither verse speaks of our sinful nature, but of our sins, personal. From whence does our sinful nature come? Does it not eminate from Adam's sin? Was Adam's sin not included in the sin of the world?
The verses you posted are true and I agree with them completely. Christ did die for the sins of the world, including our personal sins. But if that did not include our sin nature, then we are of all men most hopeless. 
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 5:49:55 PM
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JesKlu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Who has any "abilities" at birth? Come on rw, be reasonable. We aren't talking about infants here. Sorry I misunderstood. I assumed that when you said "everyone is born condemned to hell" that you just naturally included infants in that. My bad
I do include infants. That's what being "born into condemnation" means. But infants have no ability to believe. When do people actually begin to sin? I think the sin nature (Adam's nature) is present quite early. How early does a child stomp their foot and say "no" to their parent's command?
To say infants have no ability to believe is wrong. You are going against some clear scriptures by saying that.
Mark 10:13-16
13 And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. 14But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. 15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." 16And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.
Matthew 21:15-16
But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" they were indignant, 16and they said to him, "Do you hear what these are saying?" And Jesus said to them, "Yes; have you never read,
"'Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies
you have prepared praise'?" (Psalm 8)
Psalm 22:9
9Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts.
It seems that these passages are quite clear. Infants can have faith.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 5:59:22 PM
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greatdivide46
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Mark 10:13-16
And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them. I don't think infants were included among these children. After all they did come to Him. And apparently they could have been hindered from coming to Him.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 6:05:12 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1187
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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Matthew 21:15-16
But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" they were indignant, and they said to him, "Do you hear what these are saying?" And Jesus said to them, "Yes; have you never read,
"'Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies
you have prepared praise'?" (Psalm 8)
I see no infants in this passage either. These children were crying out with actual words. The verse Jesus quoted from Psalm 8 is hyperbole and not meant to be taken literally. Unless, of course, it's some kind of a miracle, because everyone knows that infants and nursing babies cannot form words at their tender age.
Psalm 22:9
Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts.
Once again hyperbole and not meant to be taken literally.
< Message edited by greatdivide46 -- 5/22/2008 6:11:15 PM >
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 6:07:42 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
quote:
No, Christ died for the sins of the world, not for our sin nature. John 1:29, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world". 1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
Neither verse speaks of our sinful nature, but of our sins, personal
From whence does our sinful nature come? Does it not eminate from Adam's sin? Was Adam's sin not included in the sin of the world?
Our sinful nature does come from Adam, but Christ didn't die for sin natures, but for sin. And yes, Adam's sin was included in the sin of the world, but so was yours and mine. Christ died for sins, not sin natures.
Since you think He did, what Scripture convinces you of that?
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The verses you posted are true and I agree with them completely. Christ did die for the sins of the world, including our personal sins. But if that did not include our sin nature, then we are of all men most hopeless.
No, Christ did not die for sin natures, but for our sins. The problem of our sin nature is solved in the fact that God regenerates us, thereby giving us a new nature, which is the subject in 1 John.
< Message edited by FreeGrace -- 5/22/2008 6:18:01 PM >
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 6:09:14 PM
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JesKlu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I disagree totally and strongly. The position presented makes faith of no salvational value without work-water baptism. To say that the remission of sins and indwelling of the Holy spirit is impossible without water baptism is contradictory to salvation by faith alone.
If one truly believes he is saved at that moment in time. If he dies on his way to water baptism he dies a saved person, doesn't he? So the salvation ( remission of sins, indwelling of HS) can be, practically, accomplished without water baptism.
Hello Odeliya!
I have no idea why so many Christians believe baptism is a work. Baptism is God's work. It is not our work. Plus, I do not believe it is baptism that saves you. Salvation is only by grace through faith. But Baptism is important. All that is required to be saved is Belief that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God and truly believe it. That does not mean though that you have received the remission of sins and the indwelling Holy Spirit, which is what God accomplishes during baptism.
And about people who die in the faith without being baptized, I believe they are saved. They haven't received the indwelling Holy Spirit, but they have died in the faith. So, by not receiving remission of sins does not condemn them because of special circumstance. Other than those cases though, baptism is important. Just as scripture says.
And, I know of entire Christian denominations that say baptism is not important at all. But, the funny thing is, those same denominations love to claim you were not baptized "correctly" so you must be baptized again. Seems very contradictory to me.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 6:15:46 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1187
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Our sinful nature does come from Adam, but Christ didn't die for sin natures, but for sin. And yes, Adam's sin was included in the sin of the world, but so was yours and mine. Christ died for sins, not sin natures.
Since you think He did, what Scripture convinces you of that? Well, if our sin natures are the result of Adam's sin and Christ died for Adam's sin too, wouldn't that also cancel out any penalty we might be due because of our sin nature? However, if you are saying that our sin nature is not what condemns us to hell, then I guess it doesn't really matter whether Christ died for it or not.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 6:26:03 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Who has any "abilities" at birth? Come on rw, be reasonable. We aren't talking about infants here. Sorry I misunderstood. I assumed that when you said "everyone is born condemned to hell" that you just naturally included infants in that. My bad
I do include infants. That's what being "born into condemnation" means. But infants have no ability to believe. When do people actually begin to sin? I think the sin nature (Adam's nature) is present quite early. How early does a child stomp their foot and say "no" to their parent's command?
To say infants have no ability to believe is wrong. You are going against some clear scriptures by saying that.
How do you know that infants can believe?
quote:
Mark 10:13-16
13 And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. 14But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. 15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." 16And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.
The difference here is that Jesus is speaking of children, not infants. The point of what He said was that in order to enter the kingdom of God, one must have "child-like" faith.
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Matthew 21:15-16
But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" they were indignant, 16and they said to him, "Do you hear what these are saying?" And Jesus said to them, "Yes; have you never read,
"'Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies
you have prepared praise'?" (Psalm 8)
Do you really think this passage is speaking of infants speaking words? I suggest you consult several commentaries on Psa 8. The mention of "nursing babes" is significant, and speaks of the ability of a new born infant to nurse perfectly. But adults actually cannot repeat what they did perfectly as new borns. Just read Adam Clarke's commentary. He explains it in detail.
btw, have you ever seen an infant speak words intelligently.
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Psalm 22:9
9Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts.
I suggest you don't take every verse literally, since there are other explanations of this verse.
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It seems that these passages are quite clear. Infants can have faith.
If you read a few commentaries, I think you realize they aren't saying what you think they are saying. How many people do you know who believed in Christ as Savior as infants? Have you ever seen any infants express faith in Christ?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 6:50:44 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 551
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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Hello FreeGrace!
Are you saying God is bound by human reason? Are you saying you must be able to reason in order to have faith? If so, that does not sound right. Just because infants cannot articulate words to express faith does not mean that it is not there. If infants can trust their mother and father to provide for their physical needs, why can't they trust in their Heavenly Father?
Faith is pure trust in God. You do not need to express it in words in order to have faith. If infants are capable of trust, they are able to have faith.
And what about the mentally handicapped. A lot of them cannot talk either, so are you saying that they also, cannot have faith?
And plus, to say not to take the Bible literally is dangerous. I believe in Biblical Inerrancy.
And I believe it is dangerous, and wrong to reason out what the Bible actually says. And sadly, many Christians are doing just that today.
And when Jesus is speaking in Mark 10, the Greek word is paida, which means babes in arms.
Jessica
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And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/22/2008 9:21:51 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Hello FreeGrace!
Are you saying God is bound by human reason?
Not at all. I wonder why you even pose that question.
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Are you saying you must be able to reason in order to have faith? If so, that does not sound right.
Have you ever thought about what you have come to believe? what I mean is, have you considered the "process" that led you to a particular position, whether it be politics, as in liberal vs conservative, or theological, or whatever? In order to reach a "conclusion" as to what you think is right, you MUST be able to reason through all the "data" in order to make your decision to accept as true (believe) any of the various positions available.
Why do you think that reason wouldn't be involved in one coming to believe something?
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Just because infants cannot articulate words to express faith does not mean that it is not there.
The very fact that they can't articulate is the clear indication that they cannot believe. Believing involves mental processes. Just like thinking does.
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If infants can trust their mother and father to provide for their physical needs, why can't they trust in their Heavenly Father?
I don't believe that infants "trust" their parents in the way you seem to think they do. Actually, an infant would gladly nurse any available person. I've heard stories of fathers telling about how their new born infant actually tried to nurse them when they didn't have a shirt on! Now, I guess that's some trust!  But, alas, it's misguided trust and doesn't deliver the "goods".
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Faith is pure trust in God. You do not need to express it in words in order to have faith. If infants are capable of trust, they are able to have faith.
The concept of God is not concrete, like a breast is. Only if infants can think in the abstract can they even be aware of God in a conscious manner. There is no indication that they can.
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And what about the mentally handicapped. A lot of them cannot talk either, so are you saying that they also, cannot have faith?
This isn't about speaking. It's about thinking. I believe that those who are mentally disabled to the point of not being able to grasp the concept of God and that they are sinners are saved just as babies who die are since they are not able to believe because they are not able to think. Christ died for everyone, so those who die without coming to the point of being able to understand their sinful condition and not only understanding that Christ died for them, but accepting as true that He did, are saved. I take Rom 11:32 as support.
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And plus, to say not to take the Bible literally is dangerous. I believe in Biblical Inerrancy.
I'm sure everyone on this thread does as well. But there is a huge difference between understanding hyperbole and being literal. Look up that word to see what I mean. Many times the Bible uses hyperbole and figurative speech, which cannot be taken literally, since it wasn't meant literally.
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And I believe it is dangerous, and wrong to reason out what the Bible actually says. And sadly, many Christians are doing just that today.
God created mankind in His own image. What does that mean to you? I don't think it means that we physically resemble God by our earthly bodies. Maybe you do. I think it refers to our minds. God certainly thinks, and He created creatures with intellect. And He expects us to use our intellect.
< Message edited by FreeGrace -- 5/22/2008 9:29:14 PM >
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/23/2008 5:12:26 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: kelman
Cornelius wasn't saved in Acts 10:2, Scripture is very clear on this point. Being “devout” and charitable doesn’t translate into being saved. Paul, before Damascus, was quite a devout Pharisee and he was not saved. So, being devout, charitable and praying to God continually is no indication that a person is a believer? Then what were Paul and Cornelius lacking that would have made them believers? Since believing, apparently, is all that's required to be saved.
We can agree that Paul, at least, was not saved until Damascus, can't we? What Paul and Cornelius both lacked was the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit/Baptism of the Holy Spirit, iow, they lacked regeneration, lacked the new heart, lacked the new spirit, lacked being "born from above".
Once we receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, the scales will fall from the blinded eyes, the ears will be opened to the message of the Gospel; and God will have "washed away our sins". Then we make the decision when we will be water baptized - the sign of the Substance.
I wanted to comment on this from another post of yours.
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Hebrews 11:24-26 tells us the Moses was looking forward to the reward of the Messiah. And probably most of the Old Testament saints were doing the same thing. So, how can we know that Cornelius wasn't? And if he wasn't how do we know that, because Acts 10:2 certainly seems to indicate that he was. Cornelius wasn't a Jew so most probably he knew nothing of a Messiah. As for other OT people, most were "working" toward their salvation. This is what Paul says in Gal 3. There were very few who were looking toward the Messiah for their eternal life.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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