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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/23/2008 5:15:12 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: kelman
People are told - make your decision - only believe - only confess. And, if you do, you can be saved right now. Only problem is that God saves in His own good time as He teaches in John 3 - not when people decide it's time to become saved or water baptized. So God saving in His own good time, as He teaches in John 3, can never take place when someone decides to be saved or is water baptized? Why does God's own good time mean anytime He chooses, except when someone decides to be saved or is water baptized? I think the fact He is God and the One who suffered and died gives Him the prerogative of deciding who He will save and when. He tells us: "So then it is not of him who wills..."
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It seems to me that God saving someone in His own good time means He will save them whenever He chooses and He could choose to wait until a person decides to become saved or water baptized. I think you're mixing God's "good time" with that of the one who wishes to be saved. You would have God's "own good time" dependent upon man's "own good time", iow, dependent on man's decision.
Who among us can decide when, or "if", in fact, God the Holy Spirit will indwell us? Can we circumcise our hearts? Can we make our blind eyes to see? Can we open our ears to hear? If we can do those things, then, yes, I will agree with you that we can decide when God will save us. But, until then...
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/23/2008 5:18:29 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Acts 2:38-39
"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."(ESV)
It seems that in this passage the Apostle Peter is saying that the forgiveness of sins happens at baptism. I'm not saying it can't happen before. But it seems what happens at baptism, the Old Man (sinful nature) has no hold on you anymore once you are baptized. The sinful nature is still there, but it cannot condemn you anymore once you are baptized.
We see from the context that Peter is speaking to unbelieving Jews - some of whom held responsibility for crucifying Christ. He is preaching the Gospel to them. They cannot "repent" if they do not first believe. So, in effect, Peter is telling them they must believe. It is impossible for a spiritually dead man to believe unto salvation. He must first be made "spiritually alive"; and, try as he might, man cannot make himself "alive". They cannot open their own ears to be persuaded of Peter's message - God must first do this. Just as He opened the heart of Lydia so that she could hear the truth which Paul preached: "The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul."
It is God who remits our sins when we are "born of the Spirit" - not when we make a decision to be water baptized. So, when Peter gave the command to "repent and be baptized", it is equivalent to the command Paul gave to the Philippian jailer when he was told he must believe.
To be "washed of our sins" or to come into a condition of believing on Christ is something of which those in Acts, or we, are totally incapable. To believe, to be baptized(washed of our sins), to repent, therefore, are all things that must be performed by God. He must wash away our sins; He must give us a new resurrected soul so that our life will be turned around from serving self to serving God; He must give us faith so that we are able to altogether believe and trust God. All of which have nothing to do with water baptism.
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This passage also seems to say that you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit once you are baptized. We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit when we receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is then that we become "born from above" - regenerated. It has absolutely nothing to do with when we make the decision to be water baptized. We cannot decide when we would like to have our sins washed away - only God can do that. This really is a man centric doctrine. It depends solely on the will of the individual - on his decision when he'd like to be saved/have his sins washed away - thereby making this gospel essentially a works gospel.
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To me, I do not view baptism as a work, but as God's work, not man's. It is God who is doing the baptizing, even though it is performed by a man. You may not view it as a "work"; but, it is. Any action we take is a "work".
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To explain this, I will quote Martin Luther
"What benefits does Baptism give? It works forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare." This can only be true if it refers to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit - not water. Water can do none of the above. Only God can forgive sins, only God can open the heart, only God can open the ears, only God can make to the blind to see. And none of this is done when man decides he'd like to get water baptized.
....rather..
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/23/2008 5:21:10 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
To say infants have no ability to believe is wrong. You are going against some clear scriptures by saying that.
I agree completely...finally :) Since it is God who gives faith, He can certainly give it to an infant, even one still in the womb. We know that John the Baptist was saved while still in Elisabeth's womb.
For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. -Luke 1:15
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/23/2008 7:57:04 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1187
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
We can agree that Paul, at least, was not saved until Damascus, can't we? What Paul and Cornelius both lacked was the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit/Baptism of the Holy Spirit, iow, they lacked regeneration, lacked the new heart, lacked the new spirit, lacked being "born from above". And yet Paul was apparently saved enough to be a Pharisee. That's why I believe the way of salvation after Jesus died and rose is not the same as it was before He died and rose. Paul was saved until He found out about Jesus and then because of his unwillingness to accept Him was then unsaved until Damascus. I quite agree that Paul and Cornelius lacked the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit and that's why they weren't saved. But under Old Testament rules Paul, at least, was saved before he knew about Jesus being the Messiah.
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Once we receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, the scales will fall from the blinded eyes, the ears will be opened to the message of the Gospel; and God will have "washed away our sins". Then we make the decision when we will be water baptized - the sign of the Substance Yes.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/23/2008 8:00:31 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1187
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I think you're mixing God's "good time" with that of the one who wishes to be saved. You would have God's "own good time" dependent upon man's "own good time", iow, dependent on man's decision. I don't think so. I'm just saying the God's "good time" could include when a person makes a decision without Him being dependent upon that decision. If we say that God can save anyone in His own good time, except when they make a decision to be saved, then it's not really God's own good time.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/23/2008 8:09:43 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1187
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quote:
I agree completely...finally :) Since it is God who gives faith, He can certainly give it to an infant, even one still in the womb. We know that John the Baptist was saved while still in Elisabeth's womb.
For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. -Luke 1:15 So, NOW are you saying that "being filled with the Spirit" DOES equal salvation? Because, before you said it simply meant someone who was already saved was about to prophesy.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/23/2008 3:38:01 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
To say infants have no ability to believe is wrong. You are going against some clear scriptures by saying that.
I agree completely...finally :) Since it is God who gives faith, He can certainly give it to an infant, even one still in the womb.
If God is the One who "gives faith", why does Jesus ask this: "However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8
What kind of question is this in light of your notion?
If God gives faith, why does Jesus warn a crowd of unbelieving Jews: "unless you believe in Me, you will die in your sins." John 8:24
What kind of warning is this in light of your notion?
Thanks.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/23/2008 4:48:12 PM
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Odeliya
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I have no idea why so many Christians believe baptism is a work. Baptism is God's work.
as Kelman said in post just a few above, water baptism is what we do, so it makes it our work.
Our work can not be salvific, for this would mean we are saving or partially contributing to saving ourselves.
Baptism of the Holy Spirit is God’s work, correct.
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Plus, I do not believe it is baptism that saves you. Salvation is only by grace through faith. But Baptism is important. All that is required to be saved is Belief that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God and truly believe it. That does not mean though that you have received the remission of sins and the indwelling Holy Spirit, which is what God accomplishes during baptism.
I am lost as for what you mean to say here, Jessica, I am sorry.
First you saying that all that required to be saved is faith. Done. If one has true faith – he is saved.
Then you negate the above by saying that remission of sins and indw of HS, necessary part of being saved, happens only during water b.
So a person that has faith but hasn’t been w.baptized yet is not saved according to this?
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And about people who die in the faith without being baptized, I believe they are saved. They haven't received the indwelling Holy Spirit, but they have died in the faith. So, by not receiving remission of sins does not condemn them because of special circumstance.
You mean they are somehow saved without being cleansed from their sins and being born again to eternal life?
Never heard of such an interesting definition of salvation.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/24/2008 7:59:05 AM
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SureHope
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greatdivide,
how is it going? I hope you don't mind me jumping in here.
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But it's not what we do in baptism that saves us. Its God's work in baptism that saves us.
But if water baptism is required before God saves us, then a work of man is required before God will save us. It appears to me, no matter how someone spins this, if water baptism is the means in which God does his saving work, then man has something to do before he can be saved. This amounts to works based salvation in my mind.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/24/2008 8:45:02 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1187
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
But if water baptism is required before God saves us, then a work of man is required before God will save us. It appears to me, no matter how someone spins this, if water baptism is the means in which God does his saving work, then man has something to do before he can be saved. This amounts to works based salvation in my mind. But its not the work of man in baptism that saves. It says in Scripture that we should be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins and we'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. That's a promise of God, not a work of man. So, if there's any work at all in baptism, it is God's work, not ours.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/24/2008 10:12:11 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1626
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
But if water baptism is required before God saves us, then a work of man is required before God will save us. It appears to me, no matter how someone spins this, if water baptism is the means in which God does his saving work, then man has something to do before he can be saved. This amounts to works based salvation in my mind. But its not the work of man in baptism that saves. It says in Scripture that we should be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins and we'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. That's a promise of God, not a work of man. So, if there's any work at all in baptism, it is God's work, not ours.
The same argument could be used to say that obeying the 10 commandments is not the work of justification, God does that. But if obeying the 10 commandments is the prerequisite for God justifying then it is justification by works.
The prerequisite in your teaching is water baptism - something man has to exert himself to do. It is the same - works based salvation; salvation that is unobtainable without man working.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/24/2008 10:29:37 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1187
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
The same argument could be used to say that obeying the 10 commandments is not the work of justification, God does that. But if obeying the 10 commandments is the prerequisite for God justifying then it is justification by works. I guess I could see your point if it was the 10 commendments themselves that justify, but they are not. God is the one who justifies. Who are we to question by what means He accomplishes that justification?
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The prerequisite in your teaching is water baptism - something man has to exert himself to do. It is the same - works based salvation; salvation that is unobtainable without man working. The person being baptized is completely passive -- no exertion required. But that's beside the point. The point is that even if there were any exertion that wouldn't be what saved the one being baptized. Only God can forgive sins and grant the gift of the Holy Spirit. Who are we to question His promise that He will do that when we are baptized?
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/24/2008 11:52:10 AM
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SureHope
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
The same argument could be used to say that obeying the 10 commandments is not the work of justification, God does that. But if obeying the 10 commandments is the prerequisite for God justifying then it is justification by works. I guess I could see your point if it was the 10 commendments themselves that justify, but they are not. God is the one who justifies.
That is exactly my point. The 10 commandments, like water baptism do not justify - God is the one who justifies. The 10 commandments and water baptism are both works done by men.
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Who are we to question by what means He accomplishes that justification?
Exactly - justification by faith - not of works.
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The prerequisite in your teaching is water baptism - something man has to exert himself to do. It is the same - works based salvation; salvation that is unobtainable without man working. The person being baptized is completely passive -- no exertion required.
I have never seen a water baptism where a person did not have to exert energy. Of course a person is not completely passive in water baptism.
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But that's beside the point. The point is that even if there were any exertion that wouldn't be what saved the one being baptized.
But because there is exertion (works) and, according to your teaching, that exertion is required in order to be saved, it is salvation by works.
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Only God can forgive sins and grant the gift of the Holy Spirit. Who are we to question His promise that He will do that when we are baptized?
I do not accept water baptism as the means by which God saves. It is faith alone without any works.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/24/2008 2:09:23 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1187
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
But because there is exertion (works) and, according to your teaching, that exertion is required in order to be saved, it is salvation by works. If you think that according my teaching exertion is required in order to be saved, you are completely mistaken. I don't believe in a works based salvation any more than you do. I don't believe there's any exertion involved in baptism, but even if there is, that is not what saves. Only God can save. And the fact that God chooses to save during baptism, doesn't make baptism a work and therefore salvation by works.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/24/2008 4:50:07 PM
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SureHope
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greatdivide,
quote:
I don't believe there's any exertion involved in baptism, but even if there is, that is not what saves. Only God can save. And the fact that God chooses to save during baptism, doesn't make baptism a work and therefore salvation by works.
If there is no exertion involved in baptism, how does one get wet? How does the one who wants to get baptized in water actually get baptized if he does not exert any energy; if he does not do any work to get baptized?
Salvation is by faith and not works. Things people do is work. Water baptism is something that a person does. It therefore cannot be a prerequisite to salvation.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/24/2008 6:09:43 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
It seems to me that God saving someone in His own good time means He will save them whenever He chooses and He could choose to wait until a person decides to become saved or water baptized. I think you're mixing God's "good time" with that of the one who wishes to be saved. You would have God's "own good time" dependent upon man's "own good time", iow, dependent on man's decision.
Who among us can decide when, or "if", in fact, God the Holy Spirit will indwell us? Can we circumcise our hearts? Can we make our blind eyes to see? Can we open our ears to hear? If we can do those things, then, yes, I will agree with you that we can decide when God will save us. But, until then...
Dear Kelman,
Each time I read your comments regarding your understanding of salvation, I am a bit perplexed. While I think most on these forums, regardless of which theological "camp" they're in, would agree that salvation is from God, it is He who performs this regeneration to change the heart. However, the disagreement comes in as to the way this is accomplished as can be evidenced right on this thread. Greatdivide believes that one receives the Holy Spirit in Baptism and that this is the "mechanism" (I know not the best word) which God has established to regenerate people.
Then there are others such as FreeGrace, who believe that in order for a person to be regenerated, they must first believe in Christ's death on the cross for their sins, likening this belief to the Israelites who looked upon the serpent and were healed. FreeGrace understands this "belief" as a mental assent, which includes using our reasoning capabilities and intellect which God has given us. So he would have no problem with the idea of an altar call, or making a decision to follow Christ.(I hope I got this right FG)
So Kelman, how do you believe one becomes a Christian? What are the actual mechanics (for lack of a better word) of how that is accomplished? Does one just wake up one day and discover they were "zapped" by God, and they are a changed person? I ask this sincerely so using the word "zapped" is the only one I can think of that is descriptive and makes my point. For example, I've met people who say that Jesus came to them at some point and revealed Himself to them and within a moment they were instantaneously changed. No altar call, no decision for Christ, no baptism. Just a visit from the Lord out of no where and they were never the same after that.
How would you witness, let's say, out on the street or to your neighbor? Do you believe in the "Roman's Road" of presenting the gospel? Let's say for instance, you began speaking to someone about the gospel and salvation. In the course of the conversation you discover that this person has had the seed planted within them. You recognize that they are being drawn to Christ and that they would be very willing to pray with you at that time to repent of their sins and receive the Holy Spirit. Would you have a problem praying with this person to commit their life to Christ?
If you would have a problem with this, then how do you present the gospel to others and what do you do when you recognize that a person is open to receiving Christ?
I was very involved in street witnessing and evangelization for a number of years and have met many people who were ready to follow Jesus Christ and turn from their sinful ways. I recognized that even before I met them the Holy Spirit was preparing their hearts to hear and receive the gospel message. So when you speak about a person not needing to make a decision because this is a work of man, then what would you do when encountered with a person who is ready to receive the gospel message?
I hope you understand my questions. If I haven't been clear, please let me know.
Heavendweller
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/24/2008 6:31:21 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
To say infants have no ability to believe is wrong. You are going against some clear scriptures by saying that.
Kelman: "I agree completely...finally :) Since it is God who gives faith, He can certainly give it to an infant, even one still in the womb. We know that John the Baptist was saved while still in Elisabeth's womb.
For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb". -Luke 1:15
So if faith can be given to an infant in the womb, then would that mean that this child would enter the world already being a believer? And if so, then would this child show evidence early on of being a regenerated person?
Heavendweller
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/24/2008 7:07:27 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
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The prerequisite in your teaching is water baptism - something man has to exert himself to do. It is the same - works based salvation; salvation that is unobtainable without man working. The person being baptized is completely passive -- no exertion required.
I have never seen a water baptism where a person did not have to exert energy. Of course a person is not completely passive in water baptism.
Ok. So baptism is a "work" because some exertion is required. SureHope, does this mean that you are against altar calls? Have you ever been in a church where the pastor asks if any present are ready to repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? Does your pastor ever ask this after presenting the gospel message? If so, do you think this process could be considered a "work" since the person is putting forth a certain amount of exertion in order to repent?
Or do you think that a person is just "zapped" one day and voila, they are a Christian?
The more I read comments on these threads, the more perplexed I have become regarding various views on salvation and what exactly constitutes works.
If any of you have ever witnessed and preached the gospel message to another person, you would know that one often comes to a point in which the person hearing the gospel message becomes convicted of their sin. I have seen people break down crying, or admit to how sinful a life style they have lived and say it with such sorrow and regret. There is a point at which the Holy Spirit reveals to the one who is witnessing that this person is at the point of repenting of their sins. What would most of you do? Would you walk away and say, well I can't pray with them because that would be a work on their part in coming to Christ. And I can't tell them to go to church because that would be a work as well. And I can't tell them to be baptized because that would be a work. What would you do with such a person?
I will tell you that my husband and I have prayed with many people over the years who repented of their sins and asked Christ Jesus to save them. And they have been living for Jesus ever since. We keep in touch with these folks and see how the Holy Spirit has worked in their lives. But the gist of what I'm getting from many of you is that you would have the attitude of "Let God do the work, and if they are going to be saved then He will do it somehow, I don't want to get in the way." And so instead of praying with them, because that would be a "work" of decision on their part, you would walk away and leave it up to the Holy Spirit.
I just don't understand this kind of thinking. Unless somehow I'm misunderstanding what many of you are saying.
All I know is, I am a sinner saved by grace. But once upon a time, I heard the gospel message, which told me that Jesus Christ died for my sins upon the cross of Calvary, and that if I only believed this message and repented of my sins, He would fill me with the Holy Spirit and change me into a new person. I am thankful that God sent one of His servants my way, to speak the Good News to me, and that the way of salvation was presented to me. All I had to do was believe it like the Israelites who were healed of their snake bites.
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." St. John 3:14
Heavendweller
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/24/2008 9:27:26 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1187
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sure Hope
If there is no exertion involved in baptism, how does one get wet? How does the one who wants to get baptized in water actually get baptized if he does not exert any energy; if he does not do any work to get baptized? Well, of course, the person doing the baptizing exerts a certain amount of effort, but they're not the one being saved. The person being baptized is completely passive. No exertion, but, as I said before, even if you believe there is exertion, that exertion is not what saves. Only God can save.
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Salvation is by faith and not works. Things people do is work. Water baptism is something that a person does. It therefore cannot be a prerequisite to salvation. Well, of course, salvation is by faith and not by works. I have no disagreement with that. However, I'm not entirely convinced that everything people do should necessarily be considered as work. As heavendweller pointed out, if someone walks forward in church for an altar call and they are saved, does that mean they worked for their salvation?
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/25/2008 4:37:24 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
And yet Paul was apparently saved enough to be a Pharisee. Many, if not most, of the Pharisees were unsaved. Just read what Christ had to say about them. And Paul was the worst of them, he admitted the same. So, we may never conclude that Paul was saved at any time prior to Damacus because there is absolutely no evidence to suggest he was. The only evidence points in the completely opposite direction.
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Paul was saved until He found out about Jesus and then because of his unwillingness to accept Him was then unsaved until Damascus.
Where is your evidence that Paul was saved and then lost his salvation? I'm confident you won't be able to provide any; therefore, this belief of yours is an unsubstantiated theory. We either are or we aren't saved. And, since salvation is solely the gift given to us by God in which we played no part, we cannot “lose” that gift. We do not travel back and forth between the states of death and life.
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I quite agree that Paul and Cornelius lacked the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit and that's why they weren't saved. But under Old Testament rules Paul, at least, was saved before he knew about Jesus being the Messiah. You just said above that Paul “was” saved. Paul and Cornelius lacked the indwelling presence of the Spirit until they were saved - Acts 9 and Acts 10 respectively. There is no such thing as "OT rules" for salvation. God didn't make a bunch of different salvation plans - He made only one. The "one" wherein we look to the Messiah for our salvation. Why do you think God is so insistent that Christ is the "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world"? He is clearly telling us that Christ's sacrifice was effective even before His Incarnation.
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Once we receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, the scales will fall from the blinded eyes, the ears will be opened to the message of the Gospel; and God will have "washed away our sins". Then we make the decision when we will be water baptized - the sign of the Substance
Yes. If you agree to the above, then you are agreeing we are saved before we ever get a drop of water on us. So, I guess that means we can wrap up this thread? Somehow, though, I think we'll find it’s just a “failure to communicate” on this one. :)
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/25/2008 4:49:32 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: kelman
I think you're mixing God's "good time" with that of the one who wishes to be saved. You would have God's "own good time" dependent upon man's "own good time", iow, dependent on man's decision. I don't think so. I'm just saying the God's "good time" could include when a person makes a decision without Him being dependent upon that decision. If we say that God can save anyone in His own good time, except when they make a decision to be saved, then it's not really God's own good time.
God is dependent if He must wait for the decision of man. Scripture says that salvation is not by the will of man – only by the mercy of God. So, salvation does not happen when man “wills” or “decides” to be water baptized.
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I agree completely...finally :) Since it is God who gives faith, He can certainly give it to an infant, even one still in the womb. We know that John the Baptist was saved while still in Elisabeth's womb.
For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. -Luke 1:15 So, NOW are you saying that "being filled with the Spirit" DOES equal salvation? Because, before you said it simply meant someone who was already saved was about to prophesy.
Yes, since Pentecost, when God poured out His Holy Spirit(Acts 2:17-18), it means precisely that - all who are saved are filled with the Holy Spirit. They are qualified and mandated to "prophesy" - bring the Word of God.
Before Pentecost, generally we see only the prophets being "filled with the Holy Spirit" as they brought the word of God to the people. But, ALL saved individuals in the OT had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit; otherwise, they could never have become saved.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/25/2008 4:54:12 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
So Kelman, how do you believe one becomes a Christian? What are the actual mechanics (for lack of a better word) of how that is accomplished? Rom You mentioned two "methods" of becoming a Christian - salvation accomplished when one decides to be water baptized and salvation accomplished when one makes the decision to believe Christ died for their sins. In both of these methods salvation is dependent solely on the will of the individual. Instead, Scripture says salvation is dependent solely on God - not on man's will(Romans 9:14-24).
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Does one just wake up one day and discover they were "zapped" by God, and they are a changed person? I ask this sincerely so using the word "zapped" is the only one I can think of that is descriptive and makes my point. I don't think there is one "mechanic", God finds us where we are in His own good time(John 3:8). Perhaps an individual has heard the Gospel all his life; but, heard with ears that God has not opened. If God plans to save this individual, He will give him spiritual "ears to hear". One day he will notice that he has begun to believe more and more - doubts and reservations will be things of the past.
He finds his desires have changed. He wants to become more knowledgeable of Scripture, to learn more about God as He reveals Himself, and to learn what it is God expects of him. And when he finds out what God expects, he obeys because that is the new desire of his heart.
Is it possible for us to recognize the exact time God changes our heart? I don't think so because regeneration is the spiritual work of God, though, at some point, it will result in physical changes as we evidence the fruit of the spirit with faith and repentance.
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Let's say for instance, you began speaking to someone about the gospel and salvation. In the course of the conversation you discover that this person has had the seed planted within them. You recognize that they are being drawn to Christ and that they would be very willing to pray with you at that time to repent of their sins and receive the Holy Spirit. Would you have a problem praying with this person to commit their life to Christ? No, that is not the prayer I would pray with anyone. I would pray that God would show me mercy and grace and forgive my sins knowing full well I am an undeserving sinner. I woud suggest continued prayer as "my soul waiteth upon"(Psalm 62:1); and, begin to read, read the Bible since: "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17).
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I was very involved in street witnessing and evangelization for a number of years and have met many people who were ready to follow Jesus Christ and turn from their sinful ways. I recognized that even before I met them the Holy Spirit was preparing their hearts to hear and receive the gospel message. So when you speak about a person not needing to make a decision because this is a work of man, then what would you do when encountered with a person who is ready to receive the gospel message? The first thing I would "not" do would be to suggest that a decision of theirs can accomplish salvation. Yes, we all make decisions when we hear the Gospel; but, no decision of ours will get us saved. We simply follow the dictates of Scripture and pray as the publican did: "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner."
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/25/2008 5:28:25 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1626
Joined: 3/11/2007
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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