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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/25/2008 6:12:09 AM
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SureHope
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ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
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The prerequisite in your teaching is water baptism - something man has to exert himself to do. It is the same - works based salvation; salvation that is unobtainable without man working. The person being baptized is completely passive -- no exertion required.
I have never seen a water baptism where a person did not have to exert energy. Of course a person is not completely passive in water baptism.
Ok. So baptism is a "work" because some exertion is required. SureHope, does this mean that you are against altar calls? Have you ever been in a church where the pastor asks if any present are ready to repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? Does your pastor ever ask this after presenting the gospel message? If so, do you think this process could be considered a "work" since the person is putting forth a certain amount of exertion in order to repent?
If the pastor said that you can only be saved if you come to the front of the church, then I would say that it is works based salvation. But since this is usually not the case it is not salvation based upon works, for a person can believe sitting in the pew. Usually, if a person responds to an "altar call" it is because he already believes and is saved. Just as water baptism is not needed to save anyone, so alter calls are not needed to save anyone.
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Or do you think that a person is just "zapped" one day and voila, they are a Christian?
I don't think the argument is if a person is "zapped" or not, but is answering the question, does salvation come by grace through faith alone or by grace through faith and water baptism? My contention is that works are not required in order for God to save - it is by faith alone.
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If any of you have ever witnessed and preached the gospel message to another person, you would know that one often comes to a point in which the person hearing the gospel message becomes convicted of their sin. I have seen people break down crying, or admit to how sinful a life style they have lived and say it with such sorrow and regret. There is a point at which the Holy Spirit reveals to the one who is witnessing that this person is at the point of repenting of their sins. What would most of you do? Would you walk away and say, well I can't pray with them because that would be a work on their part in coming to Christ. And I can't tell them to go to church because that would be a work as well. And I can't tell them to be baptized because that would be a work. What would you do with such a person?
I would share the gospel and pray that the person would see “the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ who is the image of God.” I would assure them of the validity of the gospel. I would show that person the love and acceptance of Christ. I would be as a midwife and as lovingly as possible bring a new child of God into the world. I would share that salvation is a free gift received by faith alone.
A person who comes to Christ may pray with you, or may not. This person may go to church at your advice or may not. None of this is a requirement for God to save. Only believe.
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I will tell you that my husband and I have prayed with many people over the years who repented of their sins and asked Christ Jesus to save them. And they have been living for Jesus ever since. We keep in touch with these folks and see how the Holy Spirit has worked in their lives. But the gist of what I'm getting from many of you is that you would have the attitude of "Let God do the work, and if they are going to be saved then He will do it somehow, I don't want to get in the way." And so instead of praying with them, because that would be a "work" of decision on their part, you would walk away and leave it up to the Holy Spirit.
My wife and I have done and currently do the same. What we don't do is to say they must do something in order for God to save them. God may save a person in a church, but that is not a requirement. God may save someone as I pray with them, but prayer is not a requirement. To pray with someone is not requiring that person to work for their salvation, for it is not a requirement needed in order for God to save him.
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I just don't understand this kind of thinking. Unless somehow I'm misunderstanding what many of you are saying.
I think you are misunderstanding, for I do not believe a Christian does nothing and lets God do the zapping. How will one hear if no one is sent? Someone caring and loving a person by sharing the glorious gospel is not requiring someone to do something in order for God to save them.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/25/2008 8:13:58 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1308
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
God is dependent if He must wait for the decision of man. Scripture says that salvation is not by the will of man – only by the mercy of God. So, salvation does not happen when man “wills” or “decides” to be water baptized. I don't see God as being required to wait for the decision of man. I see Him waiting for our decision as His promise that He'll respond to our desire to be His child. If salvation cannot happen when a person decides to be water baptized, then God does not save "in His own good time," since it is impossible for Him to save someone at water baptism.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/25/2008 8:20:38 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1308
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Yes, since Pentecost, when God poured out His Holy Spirit(Acts 2:17-18), it means precisely that - all who are saved are filled with the Holy Spirit. They are qualified and mandated to "prophesy" - bring the Word of God. OK, I agree with that. But you said earlier that Peter and Paul were not "re-filled" with the Holy Spirit when Scripture says that they were filled with the Spirit more than once. So, I assume that you believe that while all believers are filled with the Holy Spirit, not all fillings of the Holy Spirit are indicative of initial salvation. Would that be correct?
And, incidentally, why do you think it was necessary for God to pour out His Holy Spirit on Pentecost if all believers were already indwelled with the Holy Spirit? Wouldn't He have already been there?
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/25/2008 8:30:24 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1308
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Just out of curiousity, is there any example in the book of Acts of someone becoming a Christian by not doing anything? I can't think of one, but someone else might be able to.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/25/2008 1:15:25 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
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Does one just wake up one day and discover they were "zapped" by God, and they are a changed person? I ask this sincerely so using the word "zapped" is the only one I can think of that is descriptive and makes my point. I don't think there is one "mechanic", God finds us where we are in His own good time(John 3:8).
Kelman, in one sense I would have to agree with you on this. There is not one "mechanic" whereby people are saved. God calls people and prepares their hearts. But there does come a time, when that person recognizes that they are a "new creation" in Christ. So for example, a person can be baptized as a baby, and later on as a young child, come to a place where they know that they want to follow Jesus with all of their heart. They have, as it were, a spiritual awakening.
This spiritual awakening can occur in different ways. It can occur at baptism, or it can occur when a person hears the gospel message, is convicted by the Holy Spirit, and asks Jesus Christ to forgive their sins. And yes, it can occur gradually as a person is made aware that their sins have separated them from God. This is how I see it. While salvation is a work of God, man is not completely static in this process. IOW, some kind of response is necessary on man's part. He/she uses their reasoning capabilities which God gave them(Come now let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet, they can be as white as snow). As they hear the gospel message, many are convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sins. At this point, some heed the conviction and ask for forgiveness of their sins, they receive the Holy Spirit and are a changed person. This is repentance from their old life and living in hope of the resurrection of life. Even for those who are baptized as babies, at some point later in their life, they must renew that baptism.
What am I trying to say? Perhaps we are all trying to put God in a box and limit the Holy Spirit in this mystery of salvation.
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Perhaps an individual has heard the Gospel all his life; but, heard with ears that God has not opened. If God plans to save this individual, He will give him spiritual "ears to hear". One day he will notice that he has begun to believe more and more - doubts and reservations will be things of the past.
I agree that in some cases salvation can be a gradual process, but certainly not in all as is evidenced rather well in Holy Scripture. Many called upon the name of the Lord and were saved immediately. Then there were those who were seeking God, and searching the Holy Scriptures, and praying, and the Lord sent a "preacher" to preach the Good News. Upon hearing the gospel message, they asked for forgiveness of their sins and called upon the name of the Lord.
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Is it possible for us to recognize the exact time God changes our heart? I don't think so because regeneration is the spiritual work of God, though, at some point, it will result in physical changes as we evidence the fruit of the spirit with faith and repentance.
Kelman, this is where I would have to disagree with you. I am one of those who was immediately changed when I heard the message of salvation and received it with all of my heart. I asked Christ to forgive me of my sins, I received the Holy Spirit and I became a new creation in Christ immediately. The Lord Jesus radically changed me that day. I went home and immediately began telling others what had happened to me. The next day I went downtown and started talking to others about Jesus Christ - strangers on the street. I had been an introverted, inconfident, fearful person. The moment I received the Holy Spirit I was changed and was able to boldly and confidently tell others what Christ had done for me. And I turned away from my former manner of living. I began witnessing to my friends, telling them the Good News of Jesus and they thought I was crazy. But I didn't care. They wanted me to sin with them, and I was given the ability for the first time to say "no." All of this within a 48 hour period!
Does everyone have this kind of experience? Most certainly not. But I have met many, many people who have. My husband is one of them. And most of my friends.
Heavendweller
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/25/2008 4:13:22 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1705
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Just out of curiousity, is there any example in the book of Acts of someone becoming a Christian by not doing anything? I can't think of one, but someone else might be able to.
I don't think you will find any examples of someone becoming a Christian by doing something that is required to do in order for God to save him. There are things people do that lead up to becoming Christians, but are not required in order for God to save them while doing them.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/25/2008 5:18:23 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Yes, since Pentecost, when God poured out His Holy Spirit(Acts 2:17-18), it means precisely that - all who are saved are filled with the Holy Spirit. They are qualified and mandated to "prophesy" - bring the Word of God. OK, I agree with that. But you said earlier that Peter and Paul were not "re-filled" with the Holy Spirit when Scripture says that they were filled with the Spirit more than once. So, I assume that you believe that while all believers are filled with the Holy Spirit, not all fillings of the Holy Spirit are indicative of initial salvation. Would that be correct?
And, incidentally, why do you think it was necessary for God to pour out His Holy Spirit on Pentecost if all believers were already indwelled with the Holy Spirit? Wouldn't He have already been there?
I would like to point out that until Pentecost, only a few believers were indwelt with the Holy Spirit. At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was given to all believers.
Also, there is a difference between being filled with the Holy Spirit and being indwelt with the Holy Spirit. All believers are indwelt, but only obedient and willing believers are filled. I'm sure kelman will want to argue that. 
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/25/2008 5:20:27 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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Does one just wake up one day and discover they were "zapped" by God, and they are a changed person? I ask this sincerely so using the word "zapped" is the only one I can think of that is descriptive and makes my point. I don't think there is one "mechanic", God finds us where we are in His own good time(John 3:8).
Kelman, in one sense I would have to agree with you on this. There is not one "mechanic" whereby people are saved.
Yes, there is. We are saved by grace through faith. That IS the mechanic.
When the jailer asked what he must do in order to be saved, Paul answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved".
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/26/2008 7:09:59 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1308
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
When the jailer asked what he must do in order to be saved, Paul answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". And yet, "he was baptized at once, he and all his family" (Acts 16:33). Interesting that baptism was important enough to be done "at once" and not put off until the next church service or until the completion of some classes.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/26/2008 7:14:12 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
When the jailer asked what he must do in order to be saved, Paul answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". And yet, "he was baptized at once, he and all his family" (Acts 16:33). Interesting that baptism was important enough to be done "at once" and not put off until the next church service or until the completion of some classes.
Sorry, gd, but Paul didn't answer "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptised". The fact that we was baptized after believing supports the faith alone in Christ alone theology. Only if Paul had included baptism in his answer would you have a point.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/26/2008 7:30:21 AM
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SureHope
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Just out of curiousity, is there any example in the book of Acts of someone becoming a Christian by not doing anything? I can't think of one, but someone else might be able to.
I don't think you will find any examples of someone becoming a Christian by doing something that is required to do in order for God to save him. There are things people do that lead up to becoming Christians, but are not required in order for God to save them while doing them.
Thanks. 
Thanks for what?
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/26/2008 7:55:12 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1308
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Sorry, gd, but Paul didn't answer "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptised". The fact that we was baptized after believing supports the faith alone in Christ alone theology. Only if Paul had included baptism in his answer would you have a point. So, do you think that the Philippian jailer was baptized and Paul never talked to him about it? If Paul's statement, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household" (Acts 16:31), was all that Paul said then why does the very next verse tell us that "they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house (v. 32)? Apparently, just because Luke didn't record it, doesn't mean that Paul didn't mention baptism.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/26/2008 8:02:15 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1705
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Just out of curiousity, is there any example in the book of Acts of someone becoming a Christian by not doing anything? I can't think of one, but someone else might be able to.
I don't think you will find any examples of someone becoming a Christian by doing something that is required to do in order for God to save him. There are things people do that lead up to becoming Christians, but are not required in order for God to save them while doing them.
Thanks.
Thanks for what?
For confirming my suspicion that there are no examples in the book of Acts of someone becoming a Christian by not doing anything.
I qualified my statement by adding "that is required to do in order for God to save them". No one has had to do something in order for God to save them. Water baptism included. For salvation is through faith, not works.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/26/2008 12:43:45 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Sorry, gd, but Paul didn't answer "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptised". The fact that we was baptized after believing supports the faith alone in Christ alone theology. Only if Paul had included baptism in his answer would you have a point.
So, do you think that the Philippian jailer was baptized and Paul never talked to him about it?
What's your point? Paul's answer excluded baptism as a requirement for being saved. That is my point. Yes, he was baptised, and that has been discussed. Your point is not supported because of Paul's answer. Only if Paul had included baptism would you have a point.
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If Paul's statement, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household" (Acts 16:31), was all that Paul said then why does the very next verse tell us that "they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house (v. 32)? Apparently, just because Luke didn't record it, doesn't mean that Paul didn't mention baptism.
I stand by Paul's answer to the jailer. Paul told him how to be saved. If baptism were a requirement, as you assert, Acts 16:31 would have been the perfect proof text for it. The Holy Spirit didn't include it for a very good reason. Water baptism is NOT a requirement for being saved.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/26/2008 1:04:29 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1308
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
What's your point? Paul's answer excluded baptism as a requirement for being saved. That is my point. Yes, he was baptised, and that has been discussed. Your point is not supported because of Paul's answer. Only if Paul had included baptism would you have a point. My point is that the Philippian jailer was baptized, therefore, Paul apparently did not exclude baptism as a requirement. Only if the jailer and his family had not been baptized could you say that Paul excluded baptism as a requirement.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/26/2008 1:23:19 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
What's your point? Paul's answer excluded baptism as a requirement for being saved. That is my point. Yes, he was baptised, and that has been discussed. Your point is not supported because of Paul's answer. Only if Paul had included baptism would you have a point. My point is that the Philippian jailer was baptized, therefore, Paul apparently did not exclude baptism as a requirement.
Your "therefore" and "apparently" shows your weak conclusion. It shows nothing of the sort. In fact, it demonstrates the "faith alone in Christ alone" position. We are saved by faith, and believers are commanded to be baptised.
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Only if the jailer and his family had not been baptized could you say that Paul excluded baptism as a requirement.
I stand by Paul's answer to the jailer. He wanted to know how to be saved, and Paul told him. There is no mention of baptism in his answer, as there is if you were to answer the jailer. Do you see the difference?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/26/2008 1:36:34 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1308
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I stand by Paul's answer to the jailer. He wanted to know how to be saved, and Paul told him. There is no mention of baptism in his answer, as there is if you were to answer the jailer. Do you see the difference? I stand by Paul's answer to the jailer, too. Sure, he wanted to know how to be saved, and Paul told him. But the very fact that he and his family were baptized proves that Paul mentioned baptism to him, even though Luke didn't record it. I am completely convinced that Paul's complete answer is not recorded. The remainder of Paul's answer is included in "they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house." Obviously baptism was mentioned then.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/26/2008 1:47:44 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I stand by Paul's answer to the jailer. He wanted to know how to be saved, and Paul told him. There is no mention of baptism in his answer, as there is if you were to answer the jailer. Do you see the difference? I stand by Paul's answer to the jailer, too. Sure, he wanted to know how to be saved, and Paul told him.
The answer provided by the Holy Spirit excludes baptism.
[quoe] But the very fact that he and his family were baptized proves that Paul mentioned baptism to him, even though Luke didn't record it. I am completely convinced that Paul's complete answer is not recorded.
You may convinced of anything you want to be. But being baptised doesn't prove your position at all. All we know from the passage is that baptism wasn't even mentioned until after the jailer believed and received the Holy Spirit. That is fact.
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The remainder of Paul's answer is included in "they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house." Obviously baptism was mentioned then.
What you seem to see as "proof" is only speculation that baptism was a requirement for being saved.
Again, I stand by Paul's answer. That is my answer as well, and we both know that your answer to the jailer's question is different than Paul's.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/26/2008 7:18:55 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
All we know from the passage is that baptism wasn't even mentioned until after the jailer believed and received the Holy Spirit. That is fact. Actually we don't know whether baptism was mentioned or not. The most we can say is that it's not recorded one way or the other. However, I see nothing in this passage that indicates that the jailer received the Holy Spirit except the fact that he was baptized. Strange how the Holy Spirit chose not to have recorded whether or not the jailer actually received the Holy Spirit.
Jesus promised His Holy Spirit to all believers when He left earth, so we can be very certain that the jailer received the Holy Spirit at faith.
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Only that he was baptized and rejoiced that he believed. Kinda makes one think that baptism includes receiving the Holy Spirit, doesn't it?
No, it does not. The key is that he rejoiced in getting saved, since that is what his initial question was about. He wanted to be saved. He rejoiced because he WAS saved.
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Again, I stand by Paul's answer. That is my answer as well, and we both know that your answer to the jailer's question is different than Paul's. Since it's not recorded what Paul actually said when he "spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house," to say that what is recorded is all he said is certainly speculation as well. Therefore, I do not know that my answer to the jailer's question is different that Paul's.
Of course it would be. You would add "and be baptized", whereas Paul never mentioned baptism as a requirement for being saved.
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For me to say that would be speculation. Certainly I would have answered the same as what's recorded that Paul said.
If you would have said just what Paul said, then you would have to give up your belief that salvation occurs during baptism.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/26/2008 7:34:05 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1760
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I stand by Paul's answer to the jailer, too. Sure, he wanted to know how to be saved, and Paul told him. But the very fact that he and his family were baptized proves that Paul mentioned baptism to him, even though Luke didn't record it. I am completely convinced that Paul's complete answer is not recorded. The remainder of Paul's answer is included in "they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house." Obviously baptism was mentioned then.
By that reasoning, I could say that "Paul told him that he needed to be baptized but that he didn't have to be baptized to be saved." We can start inserting anything into the text that we think is missing.
Eisegesis. Where does it end?
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/26/2008 9:16:59 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1308
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Jesus promised His Holy Spirit to all believers when He left earth, so we can be very certain that the jailer received the Holy Spirit at faith. Yes, we can. But this text doesn't say he did, does it?
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No, it does not. The key is that he rejoiced in getting saved, since that is what his initial question was about. He wanted to be saved. He rejoiced because he WAS saved. The version I use says that the jailer rejoiced that he believed, not that he rejoiced in getting saved.
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Of course it would be. You would add "and be baptized", whereas Paul never mentioned baptism as a requirement for being saved. What do you think Paul told the jailer when he "spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house?
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/26/2008 10:00:42 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1760
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
What do you think Paul told the jailer when he "spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house?
Who knows? But it would probably involve issues of obedience and discipleship, not extra conditions for salvation previously omitted. In that case, Luke would have been remiss in not mentioning it or Paul would have been negligent for not including it, initially.
Strange thing is, if one of the "faith only" crowd, like myself, had given the answer Paul did, we would have been called a heretic or been accused of a false gospel.
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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