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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/26/2008 11:25:46 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Who knows? But it would probably involve issues of obedience and discipleship, not extra conditions for salvation previously omitted. In that case, Luke would have been remiss in not mentioning it or Paul would have been negligent for not including it, initially. What I don't get, though, is why, in response to the jailer's question about how to get saved, Paul would respond with issues of obedience and discipleship, if in fact he did. Seems to me like that wouldn't be as important as answering the jailer's question on what to do to get saved. And, too, since the jailer and his family were baptized, it seems to me that Paul must have said something about baptism. Otherwise, why would the jailer submit to baptism?
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Strange thing is, if one of the "faith only" crowd, like myself, had given the answer Paul did, we would have been called a heretic or been accused of a false gospel. Not by me. I try my best to stay away from ad hominem attacks. 
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/27/2008 3:02:20 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
God is dependent if He must wait for the decision of man. Scripture says that salvation is not by the will of man – only by the mercy of God. So, salvation does not happen when man “wills” or “decides” to be water baptized. I don't see God as being required to wait for the decision of man. I see Him waiting for our decision as His promise that He'll respond to our desire to be His child. If salvation cannot happen when a person decides to be water baptized, then God does not save "in His own good time," since it is impossible for Him to save someone at water baptism.
I’ve never said something was impossible for God. That’s really not the issue here. The point is we become saved when the Holy Spirit applies the Gospel to our hearts. We then have this “new” heart/spirit and have become “born from above”.
When you think about it doesn’t really make much sense to say this happens during water baptism because presumably the person being baptized has already been “born from above”; and, we don’t get “more” saved by being water baptized.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/27/2008 3:06:02 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Yes, since Pentecost, when God poured out His Holy Spirit(Acts 2:17-18), it means precisely that - all who are saved are filled with the Holy Spirit. They are qualified and mandated to "prophesy" - bring the Word of God. OK, I agree with that. But you said earlier that Peter and Paul were not "re-filled" with the Holy Spirit when Scripture says that they were filled with the Spirit more than once. So, I assume that you believe that while all believers are filled with the Holy Spirit, not all fillings of the Holy Spirit are indicative of initial salvation. Would that be correct? No, that’s not what I mean. Where do we see that Paul and Peter were refilled? I don't think we do. In Acts 2:4 , "were all filled", sounds like the initial actual occurrence. Then we see a description of Peter in Acts 4:8 as he begins to preach: “Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,” It is simply describing Peter as one who is “filled with the Holy Ghost” not as one who is being refilled.
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And, incidentally, why do you think it was necessary for God to pour out His Holy Spirit on Pentecost if all believers were already indwelled with the Holy Spirit? Wouldn't He have already been there?
Before Pentecost, only a few people believed and only a few people were qualified to be prophets, to declare God’s Word. But beginning at Pentecost, it was God’s plan that there was to be an tremendous increase of believers and each one is mandated and qualified to bring the Gospel.
And, it is this “being filled with the Holy Spirit” that qualifies believers to bring the Word of God. Before Pentecost the Holy Spirit was with true believers because they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. But He was not in their midst applying the Word of God as they preached the Gospel to others; therefore, few became saved.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/27/2008 3:19:42 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
So for example, a person can be baptized as a baby, and later on as a young child, come to a place where they know that they want to follow Jesus with all of their heart. They have, as it were, a spiritual awakening. This is true whether or not someone has been water baptized as an infant or whether they've "ever" been water baptized.
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While salvation is a work of God, man is not completely static in this process. The work of regeneration is completely the work of God. Man contributes nothing. Man cannot open his own eyes/ears, man cannot replace his own heart and man cannot bring himself from death to life.
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As they hear the gospel message, many are convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sins. At this point, some heed the conviction and ask for forgiveness of their sins, they receive the Holy Spirit and are a changed person. Asking God to forgive your sins does not mean you have received the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit has applied the Gospel to your heart you have become "born from above" and will be convicted of your sins.
Heb 11:1 tells us that faith is evidence - proof of something we cannot see. We cannot see our salvation. When faith, true faith shows up in our lives it is evidence that we have become saved.
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Perhaps we are all trying to put God in a box and limit the Holy Spirit in this mystery of salvation. Actually I see it more as imposing what we "think" God should be doing instead of what He says He does.
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I am one of those who was immediately changed when I heard the message of salvation and received it with all of my heart. I asked Christ to forgive me of my sins, I received the Holy Spirit and I became a new creation in Christ immediately. Just curious, but how did you know that you received the Holy Spirit "immediately"?
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/27/2008 3:23:03 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
What do you think Paul told the jailer when he "spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house? We are told what Paul preached to the jailer. Throughout the NT we see that the Gospel must be preached for salvation. Without a doubt, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is what Paul preached because without it there is no salvation.
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Just out of curiousity, is there any example in the book of Acts of someone becoming a Christian by not doing anything? I can't think of one, but someone else might be able to.
The only thing they'd have to do is to be in the presence of the Word of God: but, even that would be the work of God.
A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps. -Proverbs 16:9
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/27/2008 6:32:47 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
What I don't get, though, is why, in response to the jailer's question about how to get saved, Paul would respond with issues of obedience and discipleship, if in fact he did. Seems to me like that wouldn't be as important as answering the jailer's question on what to do to get saved. And, too, since the jailer and his family were baptized, it seems to me that Paul must have said something about baptism. Otherwise, why would the jailer submit to baptism?
Paul DID answer it with his response in verse 31. You're suggesting that Paul took the jailer aside and added to it. Having answered the inital question, Paul probably went on to other issues of the Christian life.quote:
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Strange thing is, if one of the "faith only" crowd, like myself, had given the answer Paul did, we would have been called a heretic or been accused of a false gospel.
Not by me. I try my best to stay away from ad hominem attacks.
I wasn't trying to get defensive about ad hominem attacks. It wasn't my point. My point is that if any one of us had answered here in the forums as Paul had in Philippi, you would take issue with our answer.
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/27/2008 7:11:05 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
No, that’s not what I mean. Where do we see that Paul and Peter were refilled? I don't think we do. In Acts 2:4 , "were all filled", sounds like the initial actual occurrence. Then we see a description of Peter in Acts 4:8 as he begins to preach: “Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,” It is simply describing Peter as one who is “filled with the Holy Ghost” not as one who is being refilled. OK, I think I got it. Are you saying that when Scripture says someone is filled with the Spirit its referring to a past event in their life and doesn't mean that they are filled right at that moment?
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/27/2008 7:35:35 AM
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SureHope
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Just out of curiousity, is there any example in the book of Acts of someone becoming a Christian by not doing anything? I can't think of one, but someone else might be able to.
The only thing they'd have to do is to be in the presence of the Word of God: but, even that would be the work of God. Thanks. I didn't think there were any examples.
Do you see the distinction between someone doing something in the process of God's saving grace (such as praying, sitting in a pew, kneeling, walking to the front during an "alter call", etc) and God requiring someone to do something in order for Him to save them?
Do you not see that someone kneeling or not kneeling when the realization that they have dishonored God and humbly embracing His saving grace is not the important issue? Don't you see that what people do is never essential in God saving them? In other words, kneeling, walking, praying are not required by God one way or the other in order for Him to save someone. It is by faith and faith alone.
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-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/27/2008 7:46:37 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Do you see the distinction between someone doing something in the process of God's saving grace (such as praying, sitting in a pew, kneeling, walking to the front during an "alter call", etc) and God requiring someone to do something in order for Him to save them? Actually, I don't see God requiring people to do something as limiting God, or giving people some kind of power over God. He is, after all God, and He can require anything He wants to (or nothing at all) in order for Him to save someone.
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Do you not see that someone kneeling or not kneeling when the realization that they have dishonored God and humbly embracing His saving grace is not the important issue? Don't you see that what people do is never essential in God saving them? In other words, kneeling, walking, praying are not required by God one way or the other in order for Him to save someone. It is by faith and faith alone. Well, until I actually see a verse in the Bible that says I am saved by faith and by faith alone, I'm going to continue to believe what I do see in the Bible.
I sure wish there was an example in the Book of Acts of someone getting saved by not doing anything. But apparently there isn't one, or, maybe, its just hard to find. 
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/27/2008 7:57:31 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Jesus promised His Holy Spirit to all believers when He left earth, so we can be very certain that the jailer received the Holy Spirit at faith. Yes, we can. But this text doesn't say he did, does it?
Since Jesus promised it, we don't need every text having to say it.
[quoe]quote:
No, it does not. The key is that he rejoiced in getting saved, since that is what his initial question was about. He wanted to be saved. He rejoiced because he WAS saved. The version I use says that the jailer rejoiced that he believed, not that he rejoiced in getting saved.
I will stand by my answer, which is based on his question. It is clear he wanted to get saved. I believe he rejoiced because he got saved. But, what was clear is that believing results in getting saved.
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Of course it would be. You would add "and be baptized", whereas Paul never mentioned baptism as a requirement for being saved. What do you think Paul told the jailer when he "spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house?
The gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation. Which is: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/27/2008 9:57:14 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Since Jesus promised it, we don't need every text having to say it. Amen!!!
It is strange though how this works for you with regard to receiving the Holy Spirit, but the exact same argument used by me with regard to baptism is dismissed.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/28/2008 4:27:50 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I’ve never said something was impossible for God. That’s really not the issue here. The point is we become saved when the Holy Spirit applies the Gospel to our hearts. We then have this “new” heart/spirit and have become “born from above”. Yes, I agree.
quote:
When you think about it doesn’t really make much sense to say this happens during water baptism because presumably the person being baptized has already been “born from above”; and, we don’t get “more” saved by being water baptized. That only works if one thinks that believing equates with being "born from above." I don't.
No, I don't believe that faith is equivalent to being "born from above" - at all.
But, there's no doubt that faith is the evidence or proof of having been "born from above". And, this faith is also given to us by God. It is never our faith that saves. It is always only the faith of Jesus Christ that saves.
Any faith which may be seen in our life is not in any way causing, or serving as a means or basis for our salvation.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/28/2008 4:31:44 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
No, that’s not what I mean. Where do we see that Paul and Peter were refilled? I don't think we do. In Acts 2:4 , "were all filled", sounds like the initial actual occurrence. Then we see a description of Peter in Acts 4:8 as he begins to preach: “Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,” It is simply describing Peter as one who is “filled with the Holy Ghost” not as one who is being refilled. OK, I think I got it. Are you saying that when Scripture says someone is filled with the Spirit its referring to a past event in their life and doesn't mean that they are filled right at that moment?
The baptism with the Holy Spirit(Mat 3:11); the pouring out of the Holy Spirit(Acts 2:4) and the sending of the Holy Spirit(John 14:26) are speaking of one and the same event. This was to happen after Christ was ascended into heaven(John 7:39; 16:7; Acts 1:5).
Pentecost was the fulfillment of the promise that Jesus would baptize with the Spirit. The cleansing made possible by Jesus' shed blood is applied to our lives by God the Holy Spirit who comes to dwell within us. When He comes into our lives, we're made clean of all our sins because of Christ's atonement where He took our sins and expiated them by shedding His blood. To be baptized with or by the Holy Spirit is to be cleansed from our sins.
Now, to your point. After Pentecost all believers are filled with the Holy Spirit. Not only was the believer the recipient of the mercy of God as God baptized(washed) him with the Holy Spirit; but, he also became an integral part of God's plan to evangelize the world. All believers are qualified and mandated by God to bring the Gospel.
Well, now actually to your point :) Peter and the others were "filled with the Holy Spirit" at Pentecost. So, no, here it does not mean it was a prior experience. Later, it is simply describing him as one who is filled with the Holy Spirit; there, it would be the result of a past event (Pentecost).
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/28/2008 4:37:52 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Just out of curiousity, is there any example in the book of Acts of someone becoming a Christian by not doing anything? I can't think of one, but someone else might be able to.
The only thing they'd have to do is to be in the presence of the Word of God: but, even that would be the work of God. Thanks. I didn't think there were any examples.
Well, since John the Baptist was saved in the womb, I don't think he "did" anything to get that way. Neither did Lazarus "do" anything to make himself "come forth".
No, it's not possible for anyone to "do" something which would bring them from death to spiritual life. Who can make himself "alive"? And, until someone can make himself to come alive, it remains all the work of God. Man can contribute nothing.
Read about the man who "picked up sticks" in Numbers 15. God said: "stone him to death" because of that little bit of work he did. This, of course, is referring to the 7th day Sabbath where God "rested" from His work(Exodus 20); and, where He brought Israel out of bondage(Deut 5:15). God is demonstrating that it was totally His work, by His "mighty hand and stretched-out arm".
Like all other ceremonial laws of the OT which pointed to various aspects of salvation, so does the 7th day Sabbath point to an aspect of our salvation.
Just as God alone saved Israel from the physical bondage - no work of theirs - so also does He alone save us from the bondage of spiritual death - no work of ours.
It is a great mistake to think that any work we do or any effort we expend can be credited toward our salvation - just ask the guy in Numbers 15.
< Message edited by kelman -- 5/28/2008 4:43:54 AM >
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/28/2008 6:11:47 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Since Jesus promised it, we don't need every text having to say it. Amen!!!
It is strange though how this works for you with regard to receiving the Holy Spirit, but the exact same argument used by me with regard to baptism is dismissed.
I don't recall that Jesus or any of the writers of Scripture promised salvation through baptism by water.
What has been promised is salvation through faith apart from anything else.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/28/2008 7:19:22 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1308
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Just as God alone saved Israel from the physical bondage - no work of theirs - so also does He alone save us from the bondage of spiritual death - no work of ours. Yes, I agree. And I don't think we're saved by our works. I imagine there were some Israelites who thought they were saved from bondage by the fact that they were the ones who actually did the walking away from it, just like there may be some today who think people are saved by participating in the act of baptism. As I have said repeatedly, even if baptism is a work (and I don't believe it is), but even if it is, that is not what saves us. Only God can do that.
quote:
It is a great mistake to think that any work we do or any effort we expend can be credited toward our salvation - just ask the guy in Numbers 15. Yes, I agree.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/28/2008 7:35:15 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1308
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
What has been promised is salvation through faith apart from anything else.
I don't recall that Jesus or any of the writers of Scripture promised salvation through "faith apart from anything else." Through faith, yes, but not "apart from anything else."
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/28/2008 7:40:03 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
What has been promised is salvation through faith apart from anything else.
I don't recall that Jesus or any of the writers of Scripture promised salvation through "faith apart from anything else." Through faith, yes, but not "apart from anything else."
Can you find any mention of the need for water baptism by John in his very clearly evangelistic gospel? The whole purpose of his gospel was that people was stated in John 20:31, that people would believe and have eternal life. That said, where do you find that baptism is required for eternal life?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/28/2008 8:01:21 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1308
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Can you find any mention of the need for water baptism by John in his very clearly evangelistic gospel? The whole purpose of his gospel was that people was stated in John 20:31, that people would believe and have eternal life. That said, where do you find that baptism is required for eternal life?
I agree that baptism is not mentioned in the Gospel of John. However, that doesn't mean that I'm going to ignore every other scripture that does mention baptism. John doesn't mention repentence either, but I'm not going believe that repentence is irrelevant because of that.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Galatians 3:26). I don't think it's possible to have eternal life without putting on Christ and we put on Christ when we are baptized.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/28/2008 10:35:45 AM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
I am one of those who was immediately changed when I heard the message of salvation and received it with all of my heart. I asked Christ to forgive me of my sins, I received the Holy Spirit and I became a new creation in Christ immediately. Just curious, but how did you know that you received the Holy Spirit "immediately"?
Kelman,
How does a person, most any person know if they have received the Holy Spirit? How did you know? Are we not changed into a new creation? Old things are passed away new things have come. I will give you my reasons how I knew that I had received the Holy Spirit.
Just some background. For approx. three months prior to hearing the gospel message, I prayed (as I perceived it to the thin air) and called out to God. I asked Him if He was real to show me. I pleaded with him just about every night before I went to sleep. "God if you are real please let me know! If you exist, please show yourself to me!" (Btw, not really believing that He could hear me at all, just hoping against hope that perhaps I wasn't calling out to nothingness)
One day while walking outside an art museum, a man approached me and asked me, "Do you believe in Jesus?" Thus the conversation began and he showed me from Holy Scripture the plan of salvation. He showed me my need for God and how I was living in my sins and separated from the Lord Jesus Christ. A few days later I went to meet this man and other Christians who worshipped the Lord Jesus with him. This time, they answered all of my questions. I called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I repented of my sins, I asked for the gift of the Holy Spirit. I became a new creature in Christ. And I have never been the same since.
Now, how do I know that I had received the Holy Spirit? Simply, because I was a CHANGED person immediately. The Bible, prior to that time, was a foreign book to me and I had no desire to read it. Immediately I began reading Holy Scripture and could not contain myself with the inexpressable joy as I read it. I gobbled the Word of God up as a child would nurse at its mother's breast. I began praying to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and I was convinced in the depths of my very soul that He actually heard me and would/could answer me! (unlike the prayer for those 3 months when I thought I was calling out to thin air in the chance that God existed) I immediately began telling my friends and acquaintances about my newfound faith. They responded by encouraging me to sin with them. Where as prior to this I had tried to refrain from these sins of the flesh but was unable to resist sin, the Holy Spirit granted me the ability to say "no." Hallelujah! I knew that the Living God was dwelling inside of me giving me this supernatural power.
I could give you many instances of how I knew I had received the Holy Spirit, but I would end up writing a short novel in the process. But allow me to say that since that time it has been a good thirty years and I have seen the Holy Spirit at work within my life as well as others in ways that can only be described as miraculous, wonderful, amazing and other- worldly.
Praise the name of Jesus!
Heavendweller
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/28/2008 1:55:51 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Can you find any mention of the need for water baptism by John in his very clearly evangelistic gospel? The whole purpose of his gospel was that people was stated in John 20:31, that people would believe and have eternal life. That said, where do you find that baptism is required for eternal life?
I agree that baptism is not mentioned in the Gospel of John. However, that doesn't mean that I'm going to ignore every other scripture that does mention baptism. John doesn't mention repentence either, but I'm not going believe that repentence is irrelevant because of that.
We've been over this before. When "repentance" is linked to salvation, it refers to changing one's mind about themself and about who and what Jesus Christ is and did. So, to John believing and repenting would have been the same, and obviously, he prefered the word "believe".
The fact remains that John was specific about what is needed to receive eternal life, and he doesn't mention baptism. If it were required, then he wasn't complete, and the Bible loses credibility as being inerrant.
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For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Galatians 3:26). I don't think it's possible to have eternal life without putting on Christ and we put on Christ when we are baptized.
I strongly disagree. Being "baptized into Christ" is something only the Holy Spirit does, and I don't see water in that. Just like regeneration.
John tells us to believe in Christ to have eternal life. So which is it?
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