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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/31/2008 3:01:43 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Ezra...
Wasn’t Abraham saved under the auspicious of the new covenant and by the blood of Jesus Christ? Abraham, even though he was an OT Saint was saved just like us…I don’t think you can exclude him but that is just my opinion.
Bob
Absolutely, all OT saints were saved precisely as NT saints are - by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Meaning they too became "born from above" and given a new spirit without which no one can become saved.
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In my opinion water baptism is to make a bold statement of our commitment to Christ and identifies us as being a part of the body to other believers. Precisely, just as being circumcised was the outward sign placed upon all males. It pointed to the salvation the individual had already experienced or hoped to experience (infants). Circumcision was the sign of the substance - that God must circumcise the heart (Deut 30:6).
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The sign of this commitment is shown in....
It is very interesting how Israel also misunderstood the sign or shadow of circumcision just as today many people misunderstand the shadow of water baptism. Circumcision was so identified with salvation that the command to Abraham in Gen 17:10 almost sounds like the physical circumcision was in itself the condition that must be met in order to guarantee salvation for the person who was circumcised. However, we know this is a wrong conclusion because of Gal 5:3-4 and Eph 2:8-10.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/31/2008 8:25:17 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
It is God who says He was responsible. The point God is making is that unless He and He alone brought them out they would have perished. Of course God was responsible. But I just can't understand how they got out of Egypt if they didn't walk. I understand that it was wholly God who parted the Red Sea, but I don't understand how the Israelites got through on dry ground if they didn't walk.
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Now, the problem is you want to give credit to the Israelites while God insists that He and He alone is responsible for their rescue. It's the same problem you face with water baptism. It is not to the Israelites credit that they walked out of Egypt. They could not have done so if God had not arranged the circumstances for them to do so. So all the credit goes to God. Nevertheless, the Israelites would still be in Egypt if they had not chosen to take advantage of the circumstances that God, to His credit, had arranged for their freedom.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/31/2008 8:35:10 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
If baptism were part of salvation, then Paul should have said, "Believe and be baptized and you will be saved." But, he did not; Maybe Paul thought no one would ever believe that baptism was not part of salvation, therefore he didn't feel the need to mention it. In fact, I doubt that he was thinking primarily of baptism when he penned the words of Romans 3. But that doesn't mean that he didn't think baptism was not a part of salvation.
It's interesting though, that where he actually did address baptism, people spin it to mean something other than what Paul actually meant. So, whether Paul mentions baptism or not, some people just refuse to believe that baptism is part of salvation.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/31/2008 10:24:48 AM
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Doghouse
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Wow - 28 pages of discussion on this topic - amazing.
If all water Baptism was merely getting splashed, then I believe that there might be a case to trivialize it. However:
- Jesus was Baptized - in water. Why wasn't Jesus baptized in Hershey's Syrup, or in dry beach sand? Isn't this model of Christian Baptism telling us something here? And isn't this significance of water repeated throughout the NT. I am with some here who contend that you don't see it mentioned by Paul sometimes, because it is just presumed to be obvious.
- Isn't there something to the outward sign to the faith community and/or the public at-large about this act? Aren't we publicly declaring our faith and our belief by participating in Baptism, and isn't this demonstration and commitment important? Doesn't this provide some level of accountability to the community by this act, and isn't that accountability a form of grace that reinforces and girds the faithful for their walk in and participation in faith and the Christian life?
- In some cases, the state of the heart and the state of the soul, known only to God, is revealed for us - as in the case of the Thief on the Cross. This is not allowing us to "skip" Baptism, but is demonstrating for us that God may reach and claim anyone He chooses, at anytime, and may indeed reveal that to us. However, Scripture clearly presents to all the faithful the NORMATIVE path to salvation, on which lie Baptism and the participation in the lifestyle of one who possesses faith, not discounting any special or non-normative means by which God may choose to grab a soul.
I still don't get how there can possibly be a debate. Just about anything can be rationalized out of Scriptures, taking one verse at a time - out of context. The body of work representing Scriptures lays out a recipe for Christian living, and taken on its face, Baptism is certainly a first step in that process.
As to the Baptism of infants: I can cite Scriptural instruction that "households" of people were Baptized. Certainly - households contain children, infants and perhaps even the infirm. I believe that it is permissible for a guardian or caregiver to act and speak on behalf of someone who may be helpless to speak for themselves, in regards to securing for them Baptism. Some Churches practice that upon the age of reason, and the ability to choose and make decisions for one's own self, that "confirmation" (modeled after Pentecost) is the means by which the Holy Spirit is conveyed to the faithful to support and strengthen their conscious choice to continue the walk down the path that they were placed on by their guardian or parent, and where they are consecrated to the Christian lifestyle which they have chosen for themselves.
But that is a different thread, isn't it...?
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 5/31/2008 10:32:45 AM >
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/1/2008 2:54:24 AM
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kelman
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quote:
If all water Baptism was merely getting splashed, then I believe that there might be a case to trivialize it. However: Guess you haven't read much, if any, of the thread. Water baptism is a command; so, obviously it is something one who comes to believe should do. And, it is the sign believing parents put on their children.
It's not "trivializing" water baptism to say it can never wash even one sin away - just reiterating scripturally truth.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/1/2008 7:39:05 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
It's not "trivializing" water baptism to say it can never wash even one sin away - just reiterating scripturally truth. While it may be true that "water baptism . . . can never wash even one sin away," there is certainly scripture that indicates that sins are washed away by God during water baptism, i.e., Acts 22:16 and Titus 3:5.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/4/2008 4:08:46 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
It's not "trivializing" water baptism to say it can never wash even one sin away - just reiterating scripturally truth. While it may be true that "water baptism . . . can never wash even one sin away," there is certainly scripture that indicates that sins are washed away by God during water baptism, i.e., Acts 22:16 and Titus 3:5.
Water is not mentioned in Acts 22:16; and, in fact, it is impossible for water to be in view.
By God's authority Ananias commanded Paul to rise(to become spiritually resurrected) and to be baptized(to have his sins washed away). Saul, of course, could not do these things. Only God can, and so we can understand that this is the moment of salvation for him.
In vs 18 it says that "immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized." Iow, the falling of the scales from the eyes of Paul means his spiritual eyes have become opened - he has become saved - his sins have been washed away.
Water is simply not in view.
Titus 3:5-6 can be compared with Acts 11:13-15 to clearly see the moment of salvation and the giving of the Holy Spirit are identical. In the Titus passage the reference to the Holy Spirit being "shed on us abundantly" is speaking of salvation. In Acts 11:13-15 the moment of salvation is also clearly seen.
Not sure why you'd even use the Titus passage since neither water or baptism is mentioned.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/4/2008 7:34:23 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
Water is not mentioned in Acts 22:16; and, in fact, it is impossible for water to be in view.
By God's authority Ananias commanded Paul to rise(to become spiritually resurrected) and to be baptized(to have his sins washed away). Saul, of course, could not do these things. Only God can, and so we can understand that this is the moment of salvation for him.
In vs 18 it says that "immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized." Iow, the falling of the scales from the eyes of Paul means his spiritual eyes have become opened - he has become saved - his sins have been washed away.
I don't see how you can NOT see water in Acts 22:16. The unmodified word "baptism" inherently means with water.
By God's authority Ananias command Paul to rise (which means nothing more than stand up) and to be baptized (which does mean to wash away his sins.) Of course Paul could stand up since his legs were not affected on the road to Damascus.
As to the phrase "wash away your sins," I looked in a couple of versions and I didn't see the word "have" (as in "have your sins washed away") in either version. But in any case you are correct, Paul certainly could not wash away his own sins. So what sense does it make for Saul to be told to "wash away your sins"? How could he possibly do such a thing? I believe the answer most consistent with the context and other scripture is this: there was no way that he could do this himslef unless the washing away of sins was dependent on something he could do, namely, submit to Christian baptism. That's the implication of the fact that "wash away" in the Greek is in the imperative form. So, I would agree that only God can wash away sins and that is the moment of salvation for Saul.
I would disagree that there is any hidden meaning in the scales falling from Saul's eyes. I think it simply means what it says, that he was healed from his physical blindness. I don't think there are any spiritual implications in the scales falling from his eyes.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/4/2008 7:56:20 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
Not sure why you'd even use the Titus passage since neither water or baptism is mentioned.
I used Titus 3:5 precisely because it is refering to water baptism with the phrase "washing of regeneration." The word translation "washing" is the Greek word louo. Due to the way this word and its noun form loutron are used elsewhere in the New Testament, I find it unreasonable to deny that this is a reference to baptism.
With only three exceptions (Acts 9:37; 16:33; 2 Peter 2:22) all the uses of louo are related to freeing from sin, and especially to baptism. Furthermore, the noun loutron is used only in this way. Based upon passages where these two words are used, with the three exceptions I noted, it looks to me like they always refer to baptism. Everything related to the washing in Titus 3:5 (salvation, regeneration, the Holy Spirit) is related to baptism in other New Testament passages. All things considered, says Beasley-Murray, a Baptist theologian, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. Apparently, my spirit just isn't that hardy. 
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/7/2008 4:02:42 AM
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stephanos
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I have a great problem with people who say that the baptism of water plays any part in salvation. The reason that is, is because it takes away from the true saving grace, and that is the sacrificial blood of Christ Jesus. That and that alone is what saves us. When we believe in that atoning blood sacrifice we are saved. That and ONLY that can save us. To say that anything else, anything we do, plays ANY part in our salvation process is a works based system. In addition, the theology of water baptism = salvation is apart of how we have the error of infant baptism. For if water baptism truly saves, then why not baptize our babies to make them saved? The answer to that is found in the phrase "believers" baptism. And that phrase also is a response to those of you who feel baptism plays a role in our salvation. If baptism is only effectual to those who believe, then logic dictates that it is not the water that helps save you. After all, I can "baptize" someone, but unless it is done in the name of God the father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, it is nothing. Unless the person is baptized confessing that Jesus is Lord, then the water baptism is NOTHING.
Water baptism is a outward sign of the change that had occurred (past tense) in the believers heart and spirit, it is a sign from that believer to the rest of the church. If he is baptized before he chooses Christ as his savior, then the baptism means nothing. Again, it only worth something when he believes that Christ Jesus is His savior. So the question is, from the time he accepts Christ Jesus as his savior, to his baptism, is he saved? If you say no, then you reject the blood of Christ as having saving power. For there is nowhere in the bible does it say that salvation takes time after confession. Look at Cornelius when Peter came to visit. Does it not say that he and his household believed, were baptised in the Holy Spirit, and THEN Peter had them all baptized in water? How can a non-believer be filled with the spirit as such? Only a believer can be filled with as it is recorded that he was here. Peter even says "Surely the water for baptism can not be refused to those who have received the Holy Spirit as these have?" -Acts 10:47. So for Cornelius and his household, he believed, received the Holy Spirit, and THEN was baptized. So again, it is a believer who is baptized, not a person who is baptized into a believer.
Let me close by saying this. I do believe that ALL Christians if at all possible should be baptized. If someone claims to be saved, yet has not been and does not want to be baptized in water, I do and will question if they had a saving experience at all. I believe that part of accepting Christ as your savior, is a desire to follow His commands, and one IS to be baptized. Not to be saved, but to use it as a testimony to others that you ARE a believer. Eschatology thinkers like talking about the "Marks" of God and Satan. Baptism is the such a mark. But so to is living a life that shows Christ is the Lord of your life. Just as baptism or its lack is a sign that you have, or dont have Christ Jesus as your savior. So to does how you lead your life show if Christ is your savior. As such baptism does not save, but is merely a sign to others that you are saved.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/7/2008 4:53:14 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GreatDivide46
I don't see how you can NOT see water in Acts 22:16. The unmodified word "baptism" inherently means with water. I don't see it, first, because it is not mentioned. Second, because we cannot wash our sins away by anything we do - be it water or anything else...like having faith.
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By God's authority Ananias command Paul to rise (which means nothing more than stand up) and to be baptized (which does mean to wash away his sins.) I disagree. Ananias is not simply telling Paul to get up on his feet. What happens when our sins are washed away? We become a new creature in Christ and are given a new resurrected spirit, hence, "arise" - become spiritually resurrected.
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As to the phrase "wash away your sins," I looked in a couple of versions and I didn't see the word "have" (as in "have your sins washed away") in either version. I didn't mean to imply the word "have" was in the text. Only that baptize means to have your sins washed away; and, by baptize I don't mean with water.
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But in any case you are correct, Paul certainly could not wash away his own sins. So what sense does it make for Saul to be told to "wash away your sins"? How could he possibly do such a thing? Exactly, in no sense could Paul wash away his sins. That's why baptism(not water) is synonymous with our sins being washed away and becoming saved.
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I believe the answer most consistent with the context and other scripture is this: there was no way that he could do this himslef unless the washing away of sins was dependent on something he could do, namely, submit to Christian baptism. I agree, in part - "there was no way he could do this himself". The problem with having Paul's sins washed away being dependent upon something he did is that it then becomes a works gospel.
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I would disagree that there is any hidden meaning in the scales falling from Saul's eyes. I think it simply means what it says, that he was healed from his physical blindness. I don't think there are any spiritual implications in the scales falling from his eyes. The verse itself implies that there is a spiritual aspect with the words "as it were". Reminiscent of 2Cor 3:14-16 where it says "their minds are blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail..." IOW, the falling of the scales from Paul's eyes means his spiritual eyes have become opened. He has become saved. His sins have been washed away.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/7/2008 4:56:14 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GreatDivide46
I used Titus 3:5 precisely because it is refering to water baptism with the phrase "washing of regeneration." The word translation "washing" is the Greek word louo. Due to the way this word and its noun form loutron are used elsewhere in the New Testament, I find it unreasonable to deny that this is a reference to baptism. It is clear from Eph 5:26 "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word" that water baptism cannot be in view. The "washing" is done by the Word of God when the Holy Spirit applies it to our heart. This is the same Greek word used for "washing" in Titus 3:5 - we are "washed" when we become regenerated - "the washing of regeneration"
Again, both these verses Titus 3:5 and Eph 5:26 cannot have water baptism in view. Only the Holy Spirit regenerates us and only He applies the Word to our hearts.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/7/2008 8:46:52 AM
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greatdivide46
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Stephanos,
I agree that we are saved by the blood of Christ. I agree that the act of baptism in water is not what saves us. It is the blood of Christ. But I also believe that being saved by the blood of Christ and not by the water of baptism does not exclude the necessity for baptism in water. But again, it's not the act of baptism nor the water that saves us. Only God can save a person. Something that a person does can never save them. That's why I believe that baptism in and of itself does not save. It must be accompanied by belief. Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:3-4). Looks to me like a believer is saved by the blood of Christ when he is baptized. That's why Paul says when we are baptized we are baptized into His death.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/7/2008 9:15:13 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1308
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
It is clear from Eph 5:26 "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word" that water baptism cannot be in view. The "washing" is done by the Word of God when the Holy Spirit applies it to our heart. This is the same Greek word used for "washing" in Titus 3:5 - we are "washed" when we become regenerated - "the washing of regeneration"
Again, both these verses Titus 3:5 and Eph 5:26 cannot have water baptism in view. Only the Holy Spirit regenerates us and only He applies the Word to our hearts.
I agree with your interpretation of Ephesians 5:26. Except, that I believe that the "washing" done by the Word of God when the Holy Spirit applies it to our heart occurs when we are baptized in water. Certainly we are "washed" when we become regenerated and that occurs when we are baptized in water, "the washing of regeneration." However, it's not the washing itself that regenerates us. It is the Holy Spirit that does that.
It IS the same Greek word used for "washing" in Titus 3:5 but as I said earlier, with only three exceptions (Acts 9:37; 16:33; 2 Peter 2:22) all the uses of louo are related to freeing from sin, and especially to baptism.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/7/2008 11:08:38 AM
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FolkSingerBlues
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It is interesting to continue watching this thread and others like it.
I do understand that we are saved by grace, through faith.
Faith not in baptism, but in what God says he will do in baptism.
I would like to remind us all what a great teacher once said.
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"As you do not know the path of the wind, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things."
So while this debate will continue, I would remind all of us that NONE OF US can either explain away or define what God does in baptism, faith or grace...other than saves us.
I would think that among all the words exchanged, examples in Scripture and specific Scripture references we would all notice the pattern. That there is NOT a specific pattern that we can nail God down to.
There are however teachings that we must follow out of reverence for our Savior.
Perhaps the hugest injustice that any of us are guilty of are our continued insistence that people must see things the way we see them.
God will work through baptism as he sees fit and proper. He has allowed us to see that there are many ways that he touches our heart. But I do not see how we can continue to insist that teachings to go into the world baptizing should be analyzed into our own understanding. The continued explaining AWAY of baptism is blashpemy and apostasy.
There is no way to explain away immersion.
Many of the arguments are interesting, but NONE of them wise. You cannot understand your way into heaven!
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/7/2008 1:35:20 PM
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stephanos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Stephanos,
I agree that we are saved by the blood of Christ. I agree that the act of baptism in water is not what saves us. It is the blood of Christ. But I also believe that being saved by the blood of Christ and not by the water of baptism does not exclude the necessity for baptism in water. But again, it's not the act of baptism nor the water that saves us. Only God can save a person. Something that a person does can never save them. That's why I believe that baptism in and of itself does not save. It must be accompanied by belief. Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:3-4). Looks to me like a believer is saved by the blood of Christ when he is baptized. That's why Paul says when we are baptized we are baptized into His death.
If that is true, that our salvation through the blood comes only at baptism of water. Then again, how do you explain what happened to Cornelius when he and his household were baptized in the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized in water. They believed, were baptized in the Spirit, and THEN the command to be baptized in water. Can you be baptized in the Spirit before salvation? I thought that baptism of the Spirit was the initial indwelling after someone accepts Christ Jesus as their savior? Are you saying despite being filled with the Spirit of God, they still are not saved because they have not been baptized yet? Again, if that is the case, then we are in a works based system. If WE have to DO something, even if it is commanded by God, to be saved, if it US that has to do it, it is a work. Doing good things, helping others, basic good "works" are something that God commands us to do, but they do not save us. There are a lot of people on this board who will not hesitate to slam on the Catholic Church for their beliefs in penance and being required to do good works as part of "working out" their salvation. Yet it is surprising that some of the same people may come here and say that you are not saved until you are baptized in water. Is there a difference there?
Again, I will say again that all Christians SHOULD be baptized as part of our submission to the word and will of God. But we do not get that conviction to be baptized until AFTER we have the Spirit in us.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/7/2008 2:16:10 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1308
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
If that is true, that our salvation through the blood comes only at baptism of water. Then again, how do you explain what happened to Cornelius when he and his household were baptized in the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized in water. They believed, were baptized in the Spirit, and THEN the command to be baptized in water. While they did indeed speak in tongues by the power of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized, I don't believe that they were baptized in the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.
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Can you be baptized in the Spirit before salvation? Nope
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I thought that baptism of the Spirit was the initial indwelling after someone accepts Christ Jesus as their savior? Yes, as well as when they are baptized in water.
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Are you saying despite being filled with the Spirit of God, they still are not saved because they have not been baptized yet?
Nope, not saying that at all.
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Yet it is surprising that some of the same people may come here and say that you are not saved until you are baptized in water. Is there a difference there? Sure there's a difference.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/7/2008 2:52:18 PM
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abu_khomar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
While they did indeed speak in tongues by the power of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized, I don't believe that they were baptized in the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.
How can someone speak in tongues, and not have received the baptism of the Spirit? Jesus instructed his disciples to tarry in Jerusalem, and that he would baptize them with the Holy Ghost and with fire not many days hence. When they were baptized with the Holy Ghost, they spoke in tongues. Why is there any reason to assume that this instance is not the same, even as the disciples even link this specific account back to the begging, and say it happened the same way?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/7/2008 3:00:36 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2017
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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If baptism were necessary for salvation then I think Christ would have worded John 3:16 a little differently. It seems to me that He would have said something like; “so that everyone who believes in Him and is baptized, will not perish but have eternal life.”
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/7/2008 3:01:14 PM
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stephanos
Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
If that is true, that our salvation through the blood comes only at baptism of water. Then again, how do you explain what happened to Cornelius when he and his household were baptized in the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized in water. They believed, were baptized in the Spirit, and THEN the command to be baptized in water. While they did indeed speak in tongues by the power of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized, I don't believe that they were baptized in the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.
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Can you be baptized in the Spirit before salvation? Nope
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I thought that baptism of the Spirit was the initial indwelling after someone accepts Christ Jesus as their savior? Yes, as well as when they are baptized in water.
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Are you saying despite being filled with the Spirit of God, they still are not saved because they have not been baptized yet?
Nope, not saying that at all.
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Yet it is surprising that some of the same people may come here and say that you are not saved until you are baptized in water. Is there a difference there? Sure there's a difference.
"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message." Acts 10:44
"Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” Acts 10:47
This is not talking about the gift, it is talking about the actual indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God. And this was MANIFESTED in the use of the gifts OF the Spirit. For one can not use or even have the gifts of the Spirit UNLESS one has the Spirit in them.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/7/2008 3:43:17 PM
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terryjohn
Posts: 470
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline
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If someone came to faith or left their baptism until they were on their death bed or dying on a battle field or in a car crash, would we baptise them knowing full well that baptism would kill them? I mean moving seriously injured people and putting their heads under water could actually kill them. Who amoungst us would be willing to be acused of murder to do such a thing?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/7/2008 10:10:50 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 554
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline
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terryjohn,
The thief on the cross is the closest thing we see to the hypothetical situation you explain. There are a few things we can wonder about, there are a few assumptions we can make but the only truth that we can get from that situation is that Jesus himself will make that judgment.
The question I pose to you and everyone else on this board...Do you want to put do you want to start making judgments in place of Jesus?
Because I don't trust you or anyone else to make those judgments in his place.
I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that the New Testament is sound doctrine...IN IT'S ENTIRETY!
The NT in it's entirety teaches that baptism is more than an "outward sign of an inward change". Stated another way THAT IS NOT SOUND DOCTRINE to teach.
It's fine for an opinion, but it's NOT from the pages of the New Testament.
This whole argument is about the OPINIONS we attach to doctrine. I don't count on ANYONES opinion when it comes to my relationship with Christ. I TAKE THEIR INPUT and WEIGH it with Scripture to seek understanding.
With that said I have come to the conclusion that Baptism is what God intends it to be and I have Faith in Him. That doesn't mean I think baptism is JUST a step of obedience. Because I believe God included it in His word for reasons if only for HIS reasons. Does that make me a legalist...NO. It means I have reverence for God and His word.
I believe God has revealed some of the work He uses baptism for, I'm not fool enough to believe I understand EVERYTHING He uses it for.
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 6/7/2008 11:02:02 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1308
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu-khomar
How can someone speak in tongues, and not have received the baptism of the Spirit? I think it's entirely within the realm of possibility that God could give His gift of speaking in tongues to someone without actually baptizing them with the Holy Spirit. But if others want to limit God by saying He can't do that, who am I to try to change their mind?
quote:
Jesus instructed his disciples to tarry in Jerusalem, and that he would baptize them with the Holy Ghost and with fire not many days hence. When they were baptized with the Holy Ghost, they spoke in tongues. Why is there any reason to assume that this instance is not the same, even as the disciples even link this specific account back to the begging, and say it happened the same way? I think what happened in Acts 10 IS the same as what happened in Acts 2. As you say Peter linked this specific account back to the beginning.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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