RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (Full Version)

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greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/9/2008 8:04:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

If the Holy Spirit has applied the Word to our hearts, it means He has given us a new spiritual heart - we've become born from above - we are regenerated. There is no scriptural evidence that this occurs in water baptism. That is simply a theological construct.
I agree with all except the last sentence. I think there is ample evidence that this occurs when we are baptized in water. Whether or not that's a theological construct, I don't know.

quote:

Without the "washing" there is no regeneration. But, it is not the washing by water which is in view, it is always the "washing away of our sins" when the Holy Spirit opens our hearts and gives us spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear, iow, "the washing of water by the word". The water here is a reference to the Holy Spirit - not to H2O.
Certainly it is the washing away of our sins when the Holy Spirit opens our hearts and gives us spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear, iow, "the washing of water by the word." To me the reference to "water" is not figurative. It says water and it means water. And the only "washing of water" in the Christian experience is baptism. It is noteworthy that in the Greek definite articles are used, so that it would read "by the washing of the water,' the specific water of baptism. The only place where water and word are combined in our Christian faith is in baptism.



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/9/2008 11:29:30 AM)

I would have to admit that I believe in a works based foundation. Salvation is TOTALLY achieved by works. That is well documented throughout Scripture from Genesis all the way to Revelation.

God has illustrated the WORK HE DOES through us when we follow His instructions. If you have a problem with God working in cooperation with us, take that up with Him.

I do realize that some of you will never agree that God works WITH us.



bob97 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/9/2008 11:33:36 AM)

quote:

I would have to admit that I believe in a works based foundation. Salvation is TOTALLY achieved by works. That is well documented throughout Scripture from Genesis all the way to Revelation.


Was Abraham saved by works or faith?

Bob



MrFribbles -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/9/2008 11:44:30 AM)

quote:

I would have to admit that I believe in a works based foundation. Salvation is TOTALLY achieved by works. That is well documented throughout Scripture from Genesis all the way to Revelation.


How do you square that with Ephesians 2:8-9?



Heavendweller -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/9/2008 12:25:14 PM)

Oh no....here we go again, works/faith/works/faith/.....[:D]

Folks, it's not an either/or proposition but a both/and. When looking at Holy Scripture in its entirety, it can be seen that both faith and works are necessary components in the believer's life.

We can bat about verses and passages all day, but at the end of the day, both are needful and necessary. With that said, one who attempts to work or think they can work, without dependence upon the Holy Spirit of God will fall into anxious toil. On the converse, one who is waiting for Christ to pick up the Bible or their cross for them, or zap them to church, or force them to pray, well, they will wait and wait and wait to no avail.

There are some things we must do and God empowers us to do them. It is a cooperative effort, a relationship that must be reciprocal. Yeah, I like that. Reciprocal.

Heavendweller



bob97 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/9/2008 2:25:35 PM)

Come on Heaven...don't you agree that our works are the result of our salvation and love for Christ?

Thats really what James is telling us.

Bob



Heavendweller -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/9/2008 2:42:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Come on Heaven...don't you agree that our works are the result of our salvation and love for Christ?

Thats really what James is telling us.

Bob,
Me thinks if I answer we will really be going off topic and suffering reprimands from the moderator. To give a concise reply, I do not believe in the current teaching on works so popular within Protestantism.

If all there was to it is that works must merely follow (which they will and must , then why was Luther so tempted to toss out the book of James? And why are works "dissed" (yeah, bad word) among so many Christians?

And now to bring this around to Baptism. Christ commanded His disciples to baptize. So whether there is a disagreement on when it should be done, how it should be done, what happens when it is done...the fact still remains that the early Church baptized in water. And in agreement with GreatDivide, there is no where in Acts that even hints at the Apostles not baptizing or thinking it wasn't necessary.

If one refuses to be baptized, and stubbornly insists that it isn't important or necessary for a Christian to do, then they are misled and in opposition to Holy Scripture and historical Christianity since the Church began.

Heavendweller



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/10/2008 12:14:21 AM)

Abraham was saved by the works God did through Abraham's faith. Which was by following what God asked him to do. Abraham could have went anywhere he wanted to go, but if God hadn't worked in it he would have been just another nomad.

I square my previous statement with Ephesians 2:8-9 simply. Again it is the gift of God to work in our faith in action. A gift that he has promised and maintains.

Our works would be NOTHING if God didn't WORK IN THEM!



MrFribbles -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/10/2008 1:01:25 AM)

quote:

I square my previous statement with Ephesians 2:8-9 simply. Again it is the gift of God to work in our faith in action. A gift that he has promised and maintains.


Then why does it specifically say that it is not by works?



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/10/2008 6:32:34 AM)

Because our works are never going to save us if God doesn't validate them with HIS WORK IN US.

Imagine if you will a child see his daddy's tools in a tool box. They are all greasy and dirty. The little boy decides that his daddies deserves to have tools that are clean, shiny and new. The little boy takes the tools and washes them with soap and water. The tools are shiny, they are clean and the child runs to his daddy saying "Daddy, daddy, I cleaned all of your tools yesterday." The daddy goes with the child to see the tools and they are all rusty the next day.

The "work" the little boy did wasn't prosperous, or helpful but the heart and attitude the little boy had makes the daddy joyful. The daddy rewards the boy by taking him for ice cream.

In my view it's kind of the same way that God works with us. I can't do anything that is going to "help God" but God can do so much in my life when my heart is in the right place, no matter how hard I can mess things up. It's not the work I do, but what he does because of what He sees in my heart.

So you and I can do all kinds of things that we consider "works". It's not the work itself that does anything for us. It's God's response to what we are doing, the why we do it. Luckily God has shed some light on what He will respond to and how He will respond when our "faith" is placed in Him.



kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/11/2008 12:45:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

And, that is simply an assumption on your part - that God washes aways sins in water baptism.
Well, at least my "assumption" has scriptural backing, while I have yet to find a passage of scripture that says we saved by belief alone, which I think is an assumption itself. An assumption which I used to have myself, by the way.
That is an assumption I have never made - that faith saves. And, btw, I do remember telling you that a number of times.

No where in Scripture does it say that sins are washed away by water baptism.



kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/11/2008 12:46:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreatDivide46
..."the washing of water by the word." To me the reference to "water" is not figurative. It says water and it means water.
So, do we wring out a sopping wet Bible so that the water of the Word can wash us?

Of course, it's figurative; and, it figures the blood of Christ. The "only" washing that saves is to be washed in the blood of Christ - not water.

Only God can wash away sins and He does so when the Holy Spirit applies the "water of the Word" to our lives - when He makes us "born from above".

This emphasizes the principle that when we read the word "baptize", we ordinarily must first think of it as a word that identifies with the action of God in washing our sins away.

We are baptized, that is, washed of our sins when we become saved. The cleansing of our sins places us into the body of believers which God also speaks of as the Body of Christ.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/11/2008 9:02:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

And, that is simply an assumption on your part - that God washes aways sins in water baptism.
Well, at least my "assumption" has scriptural backing, while I have yet to find a passage of scripture that says we saved by belief alone, which I think is an assumption itself. An assumption which I used to have myself, by the way.
That is an assumption I have never made - that faith saves. And, btw, I do remember telling you that a number of times.

No where in Scripture does it say that sins are washed away by water baptism.
Just because I'm picking on the "faith only" people doesn't mean that I'm picking on you. I know you don't believe that. You've told me that a number of times. [:)]

Likewise, no where in Scripture does it say that sins are washed away by the baptism of the Holy Spirit.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/11/2008 9:07:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

Only God can wash away sins and He does so when the Holy Spirit applies the "water of the Word" to our lives - when He makes us "born from above".

This emphasizes the principle that when we read the word "baptize", we ordinarily must first think of it as a word that identifies with the action of God in washing our sins away.

We are baptized, that is, washed of our sins when we become saved. The cleansing of our sins places us into the body of believers which God also speaks of as the Body of Christ.

Amen, brother. Couldn't have said it better myself. That's precisely what happens when we are baptized.



kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/15/2008 12:43:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

And, that is simply an assumption on your part - that God washes aways sins in water baptism.
Well, at least my "assumption" has scriptural backing, while I have yet to find a passage of scripture that says we saved by belief alone, which I think is an assumption itself. An assumption which I used to have myself, by the way.
That is an assumption I have never made - that faith saves. And, btw, I do remember telling you that a number of times.

No where in Scripture does it say that sins are washed away by water baptism.
Just because I'm picking on the "faith only" people doesn't mean that I'm picking on you. I know you don't believe that. You've told me that a number of times. [:)]
Silly me. Since you were posting to me, I thought it was meant for me.

quote:

Likewise, no where in Scripture does it say that sins are washed away by the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Rev 1:5 tells us Christ "washed us from sin in his own blood".

Mat 3:11 says Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Since we are cleansed from sin by Christ and the verse says Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit, we are cleansed from sin when baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Peter tells us in Acts 11:13-15 that Cornelius was not saved(did not have his sins washed away) until the Holy Ghost fell upon him.

vs 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

vs 14 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

So, Cornelius was saved when the Holy Spirit fell upon him as he was baptized with the Holy Spirit.

1Cor 12:13 says we are "baptized into one body...and have been made to drink into one Spirit." The water we need to drink is that of the Holy Spirit and we do that when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/15/2008 8:00:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

Rev 1:5 tells us Christ "washed us from sin in his own blood".
Yes, Christ does wash is from sin in his own blood and this happens when we are baptized (Romans 6:3-4)

quote:

Mat 3:11 says Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Since we are cleansed from sin by Christ and the verse says Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit, we are cleansed from sin when baptized by the Holy Spirit.
Absolutely, and that occurs when we are baptized (Acts 2:38; 1 Corinthians 12:13)

quote:

Peter tells us in Acts 11:13-15 that Cornelius was not saved(did not have his sins washed away) until the Holy Ghost fell upon him.
I see that those verses say the Holy Spirit fell on him, but I don't see anything in those three verses that indicate that his sins were washed away by that occurence.

quote:

1Cor 12:13 says we are "baptized into one body...and have been made to drink into one Spirit." The water we need to drink is that of the Holy Spirit and we do that when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Yes, and that water is supplied when we are baptized.



hellohellohi -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/16/2008 3:10:08 PM)

I am lazy and haven't read this whole thread, but what about

Luke 3:16:
16John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

?

Perhaps some are baptized with water and some with fire?



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/17/2008 7:45:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellohellohi

I am lazy and haven't read this whole thread, but what about

Luke 3:16:
16John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

?

Perhaps some are baptized with water and some with fire?
Some may have been baptized with fire (whatever that means), but only in fulfillment of what Jesus said. Paul says all Christians are baptized (1 Corinthians 12:13) and that there there is only one baptism (Ephesians 4:5) and I don't think he had baptism in fire in mind.



PromiseLander -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/17/2008 1:26:00 PM)

I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been touched on or not but this issue of saved through water MUST be dealt a fatal blow.

#1) Jesus said, concerning salvation: "Deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and follow me." He does not say "Baptism" is a necessary thing for salvation.

#2) If Baptism is a necessary thing for salvation, then Jesus lied to the theif on the cross when He said: "Today, you will be with me in Paradise..."

#3) Obviously, Baptism is a command given to us by Jesus, but if our salvation depended upon this command to be saved, then by playing with those rules, anyone who does not go to every country in the world and preach the Gospel to every living soul, then he is not saved.

You MUST take Scripture in context with the entire Bible, only then can one safely discern its meaning.

Amen.



hellohellohi -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/17/2008 3:28:01 PM)

cool points (#2 especially PromiseLander).

What do you make of the Luke verse greatdivide46 (is 46 a reference to a year?)? I mean, what DO you think "baptism with the Holy Spirit" means? It's okay to say you don't know though. Perhaps Paul can be read in a new light. I need to look at the verses you suggested though.



hellohellohi -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/17/2008 3:47:53 PM)

Okay, looked up the verses:

1 Corinthians 12:13
"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body..." : Doesn't say baptized by water -- says by Spirit of course.

Ephesians 4:4-5:
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all,
and through all, and in you all.

I don't know. Baptism in the Spirit?

One could certaninly be sprinkled or immersed -- heck, half-drowned! [;)] -- withOUT the Spirit anyway. So, perhaps the Holy Spirit is the key element. Water is nice, but perhaps fire can be just as powerful. Are we not baptized into His death? Maybe those who are not baptized in life -- who die sinners but repentent through the Spirit!! -- such as the thief on the cross nearby to Jesus, are later baptized by elemental FIRE. Scary or perhaps amzing thought. Heresy? Probably. Of course, Lazarus died once and was subsequently subject to the command of Jesus. Didn't Jesus conquer death also? So perhaps dying physically is not the end of the line as far as baptism is concerned. I'm not trying to propose radical new beliefs, but I do welcome corrections if I am need of them. You see, once subjected to the fire, won't the chaff simply be removed, vanish into less than ash perhaps? The rest, the wheat, or whatever was the other component of the metaphor, will perhaps survive.

Perhaps the Spirit can clean our sins with a metaphorical fire -- just like a crucible is designed to remove impurities. Water is also obviously cleansing.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/17/2008 4:33:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellohellohi

Okay, looked up the verses:

1 Corinthians 12:13
"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body..." : Doesn't say baptized by water -- says by Spirit of course.
You're right, this doesn't say water, but then baptism always means in water unless there is a modifier. The fact that the filling/indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is sometimes referred to by the word "baptism" doesn't mean that baptism always means the filling of the Holy Spirit. In this verse I believe that "we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body" means that the Holy Spirit was involved in our baptism as we were being placed into one body. I don't believe it's talking about a separate, independent filling of the Holy Spirit, divorced from our baptism.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/17/2008 4:39:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

#2) If Baptism is a necessary thing for salvation, then Jesus lied to the theif on the cross when He said: "Today, you will be with me in Paradise..."
The fact that Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise. . ." has no bearing whatsoever on the necessity of baptism. Baptism wasn't even a requirement for believers until it was instituted on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. Besides I'm not so sure that the thief on the cross is a good example to use to tell people how they ought to be saved. Of course, Jesus didn't lie to the thief, and of course, the thief was saved.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/17/2008 4:46:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellohellohi

What do you make of the Luke verse greatdivide46 (is 46 a reference to a year?)? I mean, what DO you think "baptism with the Holy Spirit" means?
I think "baptism with the Holy Spirit" means being filled/indwelled with the Holy Spirit. The fact that John called it a baptism is incidental. He could have called it anything. Jesus refered to it as "drinking of the water" (John 4:13).

Yes, "46" does refer to a year. [:)]



hellohellohi -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/17/2008 4:50:17 PM)

Yes, I agree the "have fun sinning now and repent on my death bed" plan of salvation is inadvisable. [;)].

You've given me another thing to consider with the Acts 2 reference, since I don't know about it... but it sounds like we do have consensus that Jesus is sovereign, and if their are loopholes in the law of baptism, then that's for Him to grant rather than for us to exploit!

see ya

p.s.: maybe I ought to get baptized!! :)



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