RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (Full Version)

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bob97 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/19/2008 2:24:17 PM)

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Says nothing about baptism.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

You can discount these verses or explain Gen 15 away saying well that was the Old Testament way...not the New Testament. The simple fact is we and they are all saved under the new covenant.

Salvation comes first...baptism is a presentation of faith.

Bob



PromiseLander -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/19/2008 3:31:55 PM)

Well, you can also look at it this way - Enoch was neither circumcised or baptised, and he "walked with God."



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/19/2008 3:35:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Says nothing about baptism.

Why do you suppose it says the LORD "counted it to him for righteousness" instead of saying "he believed in the LORD and the LORD saved Him."?

quote:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

You can discount these verses or explain Gen 15 away saying well that was the Old Testament way...not the New Testament. The simple fact is we and they are all saved under the new covenant.
Certainly Ephesians 2:8-9 is a true statement. But I don't believe it's an exhaustive statement, since I don't see the word "alone" or "only" in the passage.



PromiseLander -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/19/2008 3:36:15 PM)

OK, here's a hypothetical situation...

I just got saved. I have realized and admitted that I am a sinner. I have repented of my sins and begin to follow after Christ with a longing to be like Him, desiring a more intimate knowledge of Him. My Baptism is sceduled for the following Sunday - I am killed in a tragic car crash on the way to the river... Where do I go, and why?



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/19/2008 3:39:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

Well, you can also look at it this way - Enoch was neither circumcised or baptised, and he "walked with God."

I'm surprised that Old Testament characters are being brought into a discussion on Christian baptism. Christian baptism wasn't even a requirement in the Old Testament, so, of course, Old Testament saints weren't baptized. That's no argument for not baptizing people under the New Testament, though.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/19/2008 3:43:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

OK, here's a hypothetical situation...

I just got saved. I have realized and admitted that I am a sinner. I have repented of my sins and begin to follow after Christ with a longing to be like Him, desiring a more intimate knowledge of Him. My Baptism is sceduled for the following Sunday - I am killed in a tragic car crash on the way to the river... Where do I go, and why?

You go to heaven because you have placed your faith in Christ. But since this is a hypothical situation and there is positively no example of anything remotely like this in the New Testament, I cannot, in good conscience teach people that just because someone "might" get to heaven without baptism that baptism is therefore not a requirement.



PromiseLander -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/19/2008 3:51:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

OK, here's a hypothetical situation...

I just got saved. I have realized and admitted that I am a sinner. I have repented of my sins and begin to follow after Christ with a longing to be like Him, desiring a more intimate knowledge of Him. My Baptism is sceduled for the following Sunday - I am killed in a tragic car crash on the way to the river... Where do I go, and why?

You go to heaven because you have placed your faith in Christ. But since this is a hypothical situation and there is positively no example of anything remotely like this in the New Testament, I cannot, in good conscience teach people that just because someone "might" get to heaven without baptism that baptism is therefore not a requirement.


OK, so you're assuming then that because there's no documented cases of it, that no one died before being baptised? (In the New Testament) And when exactly did the ordinance of Baptism begin? Certainly before the theif on the cross because John was Baptising well before then, and yet we know that the theif on the cross went to Heaven, so salvation can't be dependant on water baptism. Right? If you don't agree given this example, you must then be saying that God makes certain acceptions. Wow, based on what? OUR merit?



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/19/2008 4:02:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

OK, so you're assuming then that because there's no documented cases of it, that no one died before being baptised? (In the New Testament)
Yes, that's what I'm assuming.

quote:

And when exactly did the ordinance of Baptism begin?
The ordinance of baptism, as it's practice by the church, began on the Day of Pentecost recorded in Acts 2.

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Certainly before the theif on the cross because John was Baptising well before then, and yet we know that the theif on the cross went to Heaven, so salvation can't be dependant on water baptism. Right?
Certainly the thief's salvation was not dependent on water baptism. But he was saved prior to the Day of Pentecost recorded in Acts 2.

quote:

If you don't agree given this example, you must then be saying that God makes certain acceptions. Wow, based on what? OUR merit?
Certainly God can make exceptions based on anything He wants to. If he wants to make exceptions based on our merit, then I'm certainly not one to argue with God. But God clearly teaches in His word that baptism is when He performs His saving work in the life of a believer and that's what I'm constrained to teach. I cannot teach the exceptions as the ordinary way of salvation.



PromiseLander -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/19/2008 4:05:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

OK, so you're assuming then that because there's no documented cases of it, that no one died before being baptised? (In the New Testament)
Yes, that's what I'm assuming.

quote:

And when exactly did the ordinance of Baptism begin?
The ordinance of baptism, as it's practice by the church, began on the Day of Pentecost recorded in Acts 2.

quote:

Certainly before the theif on the cross because John was Baptising well before then, and yet we know that the theif on the cross went to Heaven, so salvation can't be dependant on water baptism. Right?
Certainly the thief's salvation was not dependent on water baptism. But he was saved prior to the Day of Pentecost recorded in Acts 2.

quote:

If you don't agree given this example, you must then be saying that God makes certain acceptions. Wow, based on what? OUR merit?
Certainly God can make exceptions based on anything He wants to. If he wants to make exceptions based on our merit, then I'm certainly not one to argue with God. But God clearly teaches in His word that baptism is when He performs His saving work in the life of a believer and that's what I'm constrained to teach. I cannot teach the exceptions as the ordinary way of salvation.


If the ordinance of Baptism was given in Acts 2 then what was John doing?



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/19/2008 5:04:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

If the ordinance of Baptism was given in Acts 2 then what was John doing?
He was "proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (Mark 1:4). But the Holy Spirit was not promised as a result of John's baptism. The baptism with the promise of the Holy Spirit, which the church practices today, was first proclaimed in Acts 2.



PromiseLander -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/20/2008 7:57:38 AM)

I realize that websites are a dime a dozen, but I did find one that was interesting and deals with baptism and salvation pertinent to our discussion here.

http://www.carm.org/questions/baptnec.htm



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/20/2008 11:39:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

I realize that websites are a dime a dozen, but I did find one that was interesting and deals with baptism and salvation pertinent to our discussion here.

http://www.carm.org/questions/baptnec.htm
I read the article that you linked to. I noticed several misinterpretations of scripture in that article, so I'm not convinced that what I believe is not Biblical.



PromiseLander -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/20/2008 12:20:51 PM)

OK, we would both agree that Scripture tells us that we are saved "By grace, through faith..."

Now, Baptism is a command given by God, but we know that we are not saved by obeying God's law for NONE of us can fully obey God's law. We learn of this through the example of the 10 Commandments: if we break the law in one part, we are guilty of breaking it in every part. Now we know that a true Christian who might tell a lie is certainly not going to hell simply because he did not obey God's command to the letter.

Likewise, Baptism is a command by God - since we are not saved by our obedience to His commands - we are saved by grace through faith - we are not condemned to hell because we may go through life unbaptised. Certainly, we sin in not getting baptised, but the sin does not condemn the Christian because our salvation comes in the moment of our belief, not the completion of tasks.



PromiseLander -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/20/2008 12:25:24 PM)

It boils down to this:

Either God declares us righteous because we obey His law, OR God declares us righteous through faith apart from the law.

Romans 3:27-28
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

There... That is the proof that salvation (justification) does NOT come through Baptism...



PromiseLander -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/20/2008 12:26:44 PM)

Maybe I can find a cure for going crosseyed now... [8|]



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/20/2008 2:03:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

It boils down to this:

Either God declares us righteous because we obey His law, OR God declares us righteous through faith apart from the law.
Absolutely. [:)]

quote:

Romans 3:27-28
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

There... That is the proof that salvation (justification) does NOT come through Baptism...
I see no proof in this passage that salvation does not come through baptism. Paul is talking about works of the law. Baptism is not a work of the law, it is a work of grace -- God's grace, by which we are saved, through faith.



PromiseLander -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/20/2008 2:09:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

It boils down to this:

Either God declares us righteous because we obey His law, OR God declares us righteous through faith apart from the law.
Absolutely. [:)]

quote:

Romans 3:27-28
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

There... That is the proof that salvation (justification) does NOT come through Baptism...
I see no proof in this passage that salvation does not come through baptism. Paul is talking about works of the law. Baptism is not a work of the law, it is a work of grace -- God's grace, by which we are saved, through faith.


Sorry, but baptism is not a work of "grace." The word "Grace" by definition is "unmerited favor." What does that have to do with the act of baptism?



PromiseLander -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/20/2008 2:17:39 PM)

"By grace through FAITH..." Not "By grace through baptism..."



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/20/2008 2:46:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

Sorry, but baptism is not a work of "grace." The word "Grace" by definition is "unmerited favor." What does that have to do with the act of baptism?

Without any question the Bible teaches very clearly that we are saved by grace alone. But at the same time every single Bible passages that says anything at all about the meaning of baptism represents it in some way as the time when God bestows His saving grace up the sinner.

As you've so ably pointed out there are only two ways in which a person might try to be saved. Either the way of law or the way of grace. Under the way of law a person tries to be saved by his own works, that is, by obeying the commandments of God in His role as Lord and Lawgiver. Under the way of grace, a person tries to be saved by his faith in the works of God, that is, by trusting and yeilding acceptance to the promises of God in His role as Redeemer and Savior.

So where does baptism fit? Apparently a lot of people would place baptism in the sphere of law, a work done in obedience to a command. The facts are, though, that the Bible never treats baptism as a work of law or as a simple act of obedience in response to a command. Whenever there is a distinction betwee law and grace, the Bible always excludes baptism from the category of law (works, commands) and includes it in the category of grace (faith, promises). Take Matthew 28:18-20 for example. In that passage we see baptism distinguished from the category of obedience to all of Christ's commands. In Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38-39 it is clear that baptism is in essence a promise -- another grace concept. In Romans 6:3-4 and Galatins 3:26-27 baptism is presented as a saving act in the very midst of discussions of the law-grace contrast, where the idea that one can be saved by works of law (such as circumcision) is strongly rejected.

Nowhere is the grace nature of baptism more evident that in Titus 3:4-7. We are saved not "on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercies, . . . being justified by His grace." In this passage baptism is clearly distinguished from the category of deeds of works: not on the basis of deeds but by the washing of regeneration and renewing. Thus we see that the baptismal washing is not "works" at all but is truly a matter of grace.



loveineffable -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/20/2008 2:46:39 PM)

You know, and John 16 talks about the Holy Spirit's job, here being the comfortor. I do not see anything about water babtism, there in John 16. I see it being about belief or not.
So let us say I get babtized (water) . I hear you great divide saying then and only then I will be saved.
Well look at acts when the gentiles were saved prior to water baptism, they received the holy ghost and with fire, through belief, as John said he must decrease and Christ must increase.
So were the Gentiles saved before water baptism or not ?
I think it clear they received the baptism of the holy ghost prior to water baptism, even though they got water baptised after receiving the Holy Ghost.
Now is not there only one baptism. So which is it Water or the Spirit?



PromiseLander -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/20/2008 2:56:10 PM)

I just can't agree with salvation through baptism though...

It completely rules out "deathbed conversions." I realize that this certainly is not the best way to get saved, but it does happen. It also rules out the salvation of anyone who happens to die before the baptism takes place. What about if a person hiccups while they are under water and drowns without ever coming up? All of these people truely believe, they just haven't fully obeyed, and through no fault of their own I might add.

So are they on their way to hell just because a hiccup killed them?



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/20/2008 3:03:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loveineffable

You know, and John 16 talks about the Holy Spirit's job, here being the comfortor. I do not see anything about water babtism, there in John 16. I see it being about belief or not.
I agree that water baptism is not mentioned in John 16. Maybe it wasn't something that John felt constrained to mention because there was no question about it in his day. All believers were baptized.

quote:

So let us say I get babtized (water) . I hear you great divide saying then and only then I will be saved.
No, I'm not saying that. I'm simply repeating what the Bible says about baptism. If you think that's what the Bible says, then your argument is not with me.

quote:

Well look at acts when the gentiles were saved prior to water baptism, they received the holy ghost and with fire, through belief, as John said he must decrease and Christ must increase.
So were the Gentiles saved before water baptism or not ?
I think it clear they received the baptism of the holy ghost prior to water baptism, even though they got water baptised after receiving the Holy Ghost.
I believe it's entirely possible to receive a gift of the Holy Spirit without being saved. But even if they were saved prior to baptism, they were still baptized. There is no such thing in the New Testament as an unbaptized believer.

quote:

Now is not there only one baptism. So which is it Water or the Spirit?
I don't believe they are different baptisms, so I agree there is only one baptism. It's physical aspect is water -- it's spiritual aspect is the Holy Spirit. One baptism with physical and spiritual properties.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/20/2008 3:11:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

It completely rules out "deathbed conversions."
I don't believe it rules out deathbed conversions. I was at the side of a loved one who died without being baptized, but I believe they were saved.

quote:

It also rules out the salvation of anyone who happens to die before the baptism takes place. What about if a person hiccups while they are under water and drowns without ever coming up? All of these people truely believe, they just haven't fully obeyed, and through no fault of their own I might add.

So are they on their way to hell just because a hiccup killed them?
Do you really think that God, who made the promise concerning baptism, cannot save someone in the circumstances you describe. I believe He can. I mean since He made the promise He can certainly grant exceptions if He so desires. But the exceptions do no become the rule. It seems that you're placing far more responsibility for salvation on baptism, in your hypothetical situations, than even I would.



loveineffable -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/20/2008 3:17:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

I just can't agree with salvation through baptism though...

It completely rules out "deathbed conversions." I realize that this certainly is not the best way to get saved, but it does happen. It also rules out the salvation of anyone who happens to die before the baptism takes place. What about if a person hiccups while they are under water and drowns without ever coming up? All of these people truely believe, they just haven't fully obeyed, and through no fault of their own I might add.

So are they on their way to hell just because a hiccup killed them?


If this is true, how can God claim to love us. God claims' to love us, I believe God to love us period.
God is not a tyrant. people and the devil are, God came to redeem us, and thus we respond with his love to our neighbor. Not if you do this or that then you will be saved or you will not.
I did not know Christ included man's deciscion on whom will be saved or not.
Is it not between you and God personally? When did he while on earth take or listen to mans' arrogance to be this way or that way?
Personally let's all go to God personally seeking his truth from him, and act accordingly, not forcing it on others.
John the baptist said to those religous leaders of that day, you vipers, you think because Abraham is your ancester, you are saved. God can turn these stones into Jews.
So who are anyone to claim they are the way, using God as their means to convince the people, we must be this or that in order to be saved?
Belief in Jesus and his finished work, excercising that faith in him, is the way for me and am saved in him, whether I have been water baptised or not. The day I believed I was sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.
God has not failed me, ever, and I have been through some trying times, as well as the rest I am sure have been also.
loveineffable



PromiseLander -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (6/20/2008 3:48:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

It completely rules out "deathbed conversions."
I don't believe it rules out deathbed conversions. I was at the side of a loved one who died without being baptized, but I believe they were saved.

quote:

It also rules out the salvation of anyone who happens to die before the baptism takes place. What about if a person hiccups while they are under water and drowns without ever coming up? All of these people truely believe, they just haven't fully obeyed, and through no fault of their own I might add.

So are they on their way to hell just because a hiccup killed them?
Do you really think that God, who made the promise concerning baptism, cannot save someone in the circumstances you describe. I believe He can. I mean since He made the promise He can certainly grant exceptions if He so desires. But the exceptions do no become the rule. It seems that you're placing far more responsibility for salvation on baptism, in your hypothetical situations, than even I would.


So God makes acceptions to how He chooses to save us? If God indeed does make acceptions to His rules, then how can one ever truely KNOW if they are saved?



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