RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (Full Version)

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FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/14/2008 11:38:45 AM)

This whole discussion comes down to this:
Which part of the Bible can we take away and it still remain the whole teaching of God's Word?


Can we take away the obedience? Can we take away the virgin birth? Can we exclude the Lord's Supper? Can we replace "wine" with grape kool-aid?
All of these things could be viewed as legalistic through our discussion, debate and compromise. It comes down to there must be a standard. The standard is God's Word. So whether you believe "what" I believe about baptism is not so much the issue, rather the issue is when any of us categorize the STANDARD by importance.

So tell me who will step up to the plate and explain which parts of THE STANDARD are unimportant...



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/14/2008 4:44:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twonatures

greatdivide46,

After observing some of your posts I have come to the conclusion
that you believe in at least two works of grace.
For example in post 791 where you say baptism in a work of grace:
Baptism is not a work of the law, it is a work of grace -- God's grace, by which we are saved, through faith.
And post 706 where you say that saving goes on during baptism:
The saving that goes on during baptism has nothing to do with the person doing the baptizing. It's all God doing the saving.
Then you say in post 756 that you agree belief must precede baptism:
I agree that belief must precede baptism.

This is confusing to the reader unless you believe in two works of Grace?

Thanks for keeping my on my toes!! I agree that I made all the statements that you attributed to me and I have no desire to modify any of them. However, I don't see how they are confusing, or how they teach two works of grace.

I do believe that baptism is a work of grace -- God's grace by which we are saved through faith. It is not a work of the law.

I do believe that the saving that goes on during baptism is all God's work and not attributable to the person being baptized.

I do believe that belief must precede baptism. I do not, however, believe that belief alone saves a person. Only God can save someone.

These seem like fairly straightforward complementary statements to me and I'd be interested in why you find them confusing.

As to the the idea of two works of grace, I only believe in one work of grace, but I believe, based on Scripture, that it occurs when we are baptized in water.



twonatures -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/14/2008 5:50:18 PM)

greatdivide46,

Thanks for the feedback.

The confusion comes when you say:
that baptism is a work of grace -- God's grace by which we are saved through faith.

Then you say things like:
I only believe in one work of grace, but I believe, based on Scripture, that it occurs when we are baptized in water.

So baptism is a work of grace that occurs when we are baptized in water?
My thinking is that God's work of grace was Christ's work on the cross.
If you believe that as well then you have a second work of grace.
1+1=2 works of grace.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/14/2008 8:10:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twonatures

Then you say things like:
I only believe in one work of grace, but I believe, based on Scripture, that it occurs when we are baptized in water.

So baptism is a work of grace that occurs when we are baptized in water?
My thinking is that God's work of grace was Christ's work on the cross.
If you believe that as well then you have a second work of grace.
1+1=2 works of grace.
OK, I can see that. You may be correct that God's work of grace was Christ's work on the cross. If that's the case, then baptism is not a work of grace in that sense, but I believe it is the time when God's work of grace is applied to the believer.

What I was getting at when I said baptism was a work of grace is that it is incorrect to disallow baptism in salvation because it is a work. When people say that baptism is a work, they are assuming it is a work of the Law, but that is not the case. Baptism is a work of grace, but only in the sense that it is the time when God's grace is applied to the believer.

That probably doesn't clear it up much, but I'm under a time constraint at the moment. Sorry.



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/14/2008 9:50:22 PM)

I would say grace is magnificent, as one hymn writer put it "Amazing".
That said I believe that God's grace can cover a lot of misunderstandings, but I also believe that God judges those who inaccurately have taught things that have became traditions. This same opinion can be applied to both those who believe in the "sinner's prayer/ask Jesus into your heart" and those who believe in baptism as the acceptance of grace.

Again I think it comes down to a deep respect of God's Word. If one has a deep respect, then why would they bicker baptism out of The Word of God?

That said some accept it more as a traditional view as opposed to looking for the leading of the Holy Spirit in the teaching.



twonatures -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/15/2008 11:36:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues

I would say grace is magnificent, as one hymn writer put it "Amazing".
That said I believe that God's grace can cover a lot of misunderstandings, but I also believe that God judges those who inaccurately have taught things that have became traditions. This same opinion can be applied to both those who believe in the "sinner's prayer/ask Jesus into your heart" and those who believe in baptism as the acceptance of grace.

Again I think it comes down to a deep respect of God's Word. If one has a deep respect, then why would they bicker baptism out of The Word of God?

That said some accept it more as a traditional view as opposed to looking for the leading of the Holy Spirit in the teaching.


Yes I look at baptism as being a tradition and I think it continues to be a unifying factor in the church age for Christians.
I think these different add-ons to the gospel of grace come about because of peoples experiences. For example when someone gets saved after praying the sinners prayer they might assume the prayer was the trigger for the act of grace by God when in fact it was only coincidence. The prayer can act as a stimulus to open their heart to accept Christ but that could happen while hearing a good sermon, or while being baptized too.
The fact is people in scripture, the gentiles, have been saved before being baptized. Even though the scriptures may show the uniform nature of baptism in church age this only shows that it was a tradition of the church age not a saving necessity.



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/15/2008 4:34:15 PM)

twonatures,
While I understand your position. I pose you this question. Which other part of the Gospel will you explain away?
Or do you choose just to stop at baptism?



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/15/2008 10:00:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twonatures

The fact is people in scripture, the gentiles, have been saved before being baptized. Even though the scriptures may show the uniform nature of baptism in church age this only shows that it was a tradition of the church age not a saving necessity.

I think that saying anyone was saved prior to baptism is a conclusion that's not supported by scripture. Certainly some Gentiles had an experience of empowering by the Holy Spirit prior to baptism, but I'm not convinced that that should be equated with salvation.

And if baptism is merely a tradition, it's the only one I know of that was commanded to be done by Jesus Himself.



gmc4Jesus -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/20/2008 5:50:44 PM)

I can see this one has had a round or few. So what can I add?

When we were initiated into a fraternity or organization, we had to go through some initiation process. We didn't bother to ask if we were members before or after, we just did it.

When we go to the bank to take out a loan, the loan officer sits on the other side of the desk with the loan documents signed (in His blood) and the check in his hand. However, we don't get the check until we sign the loan documents (with our baptism).

When we get a gift for Christmas or a birthday, it is in our possession, bought and paid for, waiting for our use, but it doesn't become completely and totally ours until we unwrap it, take it out of the box and put it on. (If that is a "work", then baptism might be considered a work, but I don't think so. Read on.)

In Acts 2:, the people listening to Peter simply asked "What must we do (to be saved - KJV)" When Peter commanded that they repent and be baptized (immersed in water) in Jesus' name and they would receive the gift (eternal life and indwelling presence) of the Holy Spirit, the people didn't ask if they were saved before or after, but simply obeyed.

Jesus says, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:!5). Why do we make the "watergate" a stumbling block or bone of contention to salvation? Every denomination acknowledges two ordinances in the Church that Jesus and the Apostles established. Baptism and the Lord's Supper.

According to Random House Dictionary, the word Ordinance means:
1. an authoritative rule or law; a decree or command.
2. a public injunction or regulation: a city ordinance against excessive horn blowing.
3. something believed to have been ordained, as by a deity or destiny.
4. Ecclesiastical. a. an established rite or ceremony.
b. a sacrament.
c. the communion.

As such, an ordinance is not an option. It is to be observed, obeyed, adhered to. It is not an option.

Jesus commanded it in the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20 and Mark 16:15-16). If Jesus commanded it, who am I to say I don't have to obey it? He alluded to it early in His ministry in His comments to Nicodemus (John 3:3-5)

Paul refreshed on the symbolism of immersion into Christ of an adult penetent believer in many places. In Galations 3:27, he cites it as the symbol of putting on Christ. In Romans 6:1-5, he reminds us that immersion symbolized our dying to sin (and being born again aka John 3:3-5. Colossians 2:12 compares baptism to being buried and raised with Christ. Why would any believer not want to identify with Jesus in that manner? Peter tell us that "...baptism, which corresponds to Moses lifing up the serpent in the wilderness for people to look at, saves us... by the appeal to God for a clear conscience thorugh the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (I Peter 3:21). All Paul ever did was expand on what Jesus taught.

Can a person get to heaven without being baptized? If they sincerely believe in Jesus, but were never told or read about baptism before they died, the Bible clarifies that God judges justly. He knows their heart and that they would have obeyed if they had simply known.

We are totally saved by grace. Water, without FAITH, repentance and confession, is nothing but a bath or a dunking. However, believing, repenting of sin, confessing Jesus as Lord accompanied with the initiation symbolism of immersion completes the Bible's call to salvation.

No one will argue whether an immersed penitent believer is saved. So if you and I have confessed Jesus, repented of our sin and been immersed, there is no need to debate the issue.

Most who argue against baptism remind us of the truth that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. However, if "works" is "something you do to try to earn salvation", baptism doesn't fit that definition. First, it is something done to you, not by you. Second, if not accompnayed by believing in Jesus, repenting from sin and confessing your faith, it is only a bathing of a misguided person.

If you, or I, have refrained from baptism because of we had not read what the Bible says or think we don't have to obey what the Bible teaches and what Jesus asks of us, then I would question how much you love Jesus. If you love Jesus, what does it matter?

Now that I've said my thoughts, I will close that I do believe that we would do more for the Kingdom if we would expend our energy on reaching the lost than trying to force each other to agree on matters of Bible doctrine. Only one question is going to be asked when we stand before the judgment throne of God. That question is not going to be about some point of doctrine argued here or elsewhere. The question is going to be, "Who is Jesus?"

May God fill you with even more of the love of Jesus and bless you as you search and seek to reach to those who don't yet know Him.



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/20/2008 6:29:33 PM)

I suppose a good question would be this:

Is your understanding of baptism what you learned through diligent dependent (on the Holy Spirit) study or what someone taught you?



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/20/2008 10:12:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues

I suppose a good question would be this:

Is your understanding of baptism what you learned through diligent dependent (on the Holy Spirit) study or what someone taught you?

I know you probably didn't direct this question to me, but having grown up in the Episcopal Church and currently a member of a Southern Baptist church, I can assure you that what I believe about baptism is arrived at through diligent study, not from what I learned in church.



Tomb -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/22/2008 7:08:27 AM)

The Bible makes clear that Jesus saves (Titus 3:5) (Ephesians 2:5,8-9) (Romans 5:9) (1 Peter 1:18-19) (Revelation 1:5) (Matthew 26:28). Most people would agree on this.

The big question is when does the Lord save? Some teach one is saved at the point of belief ALONE. Though nowhere in the N.T. does it say one is saved by anything alone. While others say that one is saved at the point of water baptism (Mark 16:16) (1Peter 3:21) (Col.2:12).

That my friend is two different gospels (Gal.1:6-9). Both cannot be correct. Jesus while praying to the Father said that the world would know His people because they would be one (John 17:21) (1Cor.1:10) (Phil.3:16,17). That means both positions cannot be truth (John 12:48). One person must be in error and error cannot save anyone. It is only truth which sanctifies and cleanses the soul (John 17:17).We must first come to the right knowledge of truth before one can be saved (1Tim.2:4). The alien sinner hears the word,is drawn by the word, taught by the word and then afterwards comes to the father in obedience to that word (John 6:44,45) (Heb.5:9) (Acts 10:34,35) (John 9:31)..

If we set aside out thoughts and just took only what the bible teaches we would find the following. (1Cor.10:11) & (Rom.15:4) tells us to learn from the things that happened to the people who lived in the O.T times. We are only under the N.T Will of Christ,but we learn how God dealt with man in O.T. situations (Heb.8:6-13 ;9:15-17 ; 10:9,10).

Naaman was only cleansed when he dipped in the water of the Jordan river seven times (2Kings 5:1-19). The right place,the right attitude, the right number of times dipped all had to be correct before Naaman was cleansed of leprosy. That is not legalism,it is being obedient to the Lord.

The blind man in (John 9) did as Naaman. The blind man had to receive the message,have the right attitude,go to the right place (pool of Siloam),and be obedient (wash) to the words of the Lord before his eyesight was given to him by God. God blessed the blind man only when he obeyed, not before. Notice also (Numbers 21:8).Check out the word "when" in that verse.

(Acts 22:16) teach that Paul's sins were forgiven at the point of baptism,not before. What kind of baptism one may ask? The Lord answers the question in (Acts 8:38-39).

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into (the water), both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of (the water), the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

There is only one baptism today and that is water baptism (Eph.4:5). How many baptisms does the church you attend teach and practice today? If the answer is two,then you are teaching one to many baptisms according to the bible. Holy Spirit baptism was only for Jews in (Acts 2:1-4) and for the Gentiles in (Acts 10:45,46). The Holy Spirit baptism was a promise for certain people in the first century, not a command for all people (Luke 24:49) (Acts 1:5,8) (Isa,6.2:2) .

(1Peter 3:21) teaches us that water baptism plays a part in the salvation of man. The last part of that verse cannot and does not contradict the first part of the verse. That is what many teach,but that is teaching the word of God contradicts itself. That would be like saying God is a liar (Rom.3:4).

(Mark 16:16) pretty much seals the deal when talking to a good and honest heart (Luke 8:15).

Believe + Baptism = Saved.

Water baptism alone will save no one. But water baptism is a aprt of the plan of salvation (Mt.4:4).



kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/28/2008 4:25:05 AM)

quote:

apostolic862004
He could not understand how you could be born again. So in verse 5, Jesus explains that how to be born again. It is of the water (water baptism) and of the Spirit (spirit baptism). It you have not be baptised by both, you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. And to further validate that point, Jesus went on to say that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit.
You are making an assumption that the "water" of verse 5 indicates water baptism. The word "water" is often used as symbolic for the Holy Spirit. And, Christ is clear in vs 8 that this experience is not known to us when it happens. "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."



kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/28/2008 4:30:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
The term "baptized in the Spirit" occurs only seven times in Scripture. Four of them are in the gospels and are parallel reports of John's announcement of the Messiah. Two more are in the book of Acts and are repetitive of this original statement by John (Acts 1:5; 11:16). The seventh occurance is in 1 Corinthians 12:13 and it says ALL Christians have been baptized in the Spirit.
You are assuming that all other references to baptism must mean water - they needn't at all - since frequently the word does not appear.

quote:

That the saving work of the Spirit should be called a baptism is certainly appropriate, but in a sense it is quite incidental.
I'm sure it is not your intention; but, in an attempt to prove your theology, it is somewhat insulting to the Author of Scripture to say that anything He wrote was simply incidental.



kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/28/2008 4:32:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues

I think some of the confusion happens when we assume that "being filled with the Holy Spirit" is the same as "being baptized with the Holy Spirit".
According to the studies I have done I am not led to believe they are synonymous.
Yet, those who are "filled with the Holy Spirit" are saved individuals. And, the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is synonymous with salvation.

When Scripture speaks of "filled with the Spirit" it is used in connection with those who are about to prophesy - speak the word of God.

Some verses which lend support to this are: Acts 2:4; 4:8; 4:31; 13:9-10 and Luke 1:15; 1:41; 1:67



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/28/2008 8:08:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

You are assuming that all other references to baptism must mean water - they needn't at all - since frequently the word does not appear.
No, I'm not assuming that all other references to baptism must mean water. My point is that when the term "baptized in the Spirit" occurs its a figure of speech meaning the reception of the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit in an individual's life. The same event is called "drinking the living water" by Jesus.

quote:

I'm sure it is not your intention; but, in an attempt to prove your theology, it is somewhat insulting to the Author of Scripture to say that anything He wrote was simply incidental.
So, whether its called "the baptism of the Spirit" or "drinking of the living water" it's still the same event and both ways of referring to it are figures of speech.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/28/2008 8:19:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

You are making an assumption that the "water" of [John 3] verse 5 indicates water baptism. The word "water" is often used as symbolic for the Holy Spirit. And, Christ is clear in vs 8 that this experience is not known to us when it happens. "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Certainly the word "water" is often used as symbolic for the Holy Spirit. But that is not the case in John 3:5. If Jesus meant to use water as a symbol of the Holy Spirit in this verse then He would be saying, "Unless one is born of the Spirit and the Spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God." Too redundant and awkward for me to believe that's what Jesus meant.

I wonder if verse 8 is referring to "every one that is born of the Spirit" rather than the work of the Spirit itself.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/28/2008 8:23:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

When Scripture speaks of "filled with the Spirit" it is used in connection with those who are about to prophesy - speak the word of God.

So I guess "filled with the Spirit" is not to be taken as a general term that can be applied to every Christian, since not all Christians prophecy. Which would mean that not all Christians are "filled with the Spirit."

And yet 1 Corinthians 12:13 says, For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body. (Emphasis mine.)



kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/29/2008 4:41:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

You are assuming that all other references to baptism must mean water - they needn't at all - since frequently the word does not appear.
No, I'm not assuming that all other references to baptism must mean water. My point is that when the term "baptized in the Spirit" occurs its a figure of speech meaning the reception of the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit in an individual's life. The same event is called "drinking the living water" by Jesus.

quote:

I'm sure it is not your intention; but, in an attempt to prove your theology, it is somewhat insulting to the Author of Scripture to say that anything He wrote was simply incidental.
So, whether its called "the baptism of the Spirit" or "drinking of the living water" it's still the same event and both ways of referring to it are figures of speech.
And that event is the regeneration of the sinner, hardly an "incidental" occurrence.



kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/29/2008 4:43:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

You are making an assumption that the "water" of [John 3] verse 5 indicates water baptism. The word "water" is often used as symbolic for the Holy Spirit. And, Christ is clear in vs 8 that this experience is not known to us when it happens. "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Certainly the word "water" is often used as symbolic for the Holy Spirit. But that is not the case in John 3:5. If Jesus meant to use water as a symbol of the Holy Spirit in this verse then He would be saying, "Unless one is born of the Spirit and the Spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God." Too redundant and awkward for me to believe that's what Jesus meant.

I wonder if verse 8 is referring to "every one that is born of the Spirit" rather than the work of the Spirit itself.
We see no mention of "baptism". Water baptism cannot be meant since it holds no regenerative ability as proven by the account of Simon Magus.

It is not redundant, rather, a similitude - of the same likeness. The term is used to teach a spiritual truth. Just as it says Christ will baptize with the Spirit and with fire. It is not to be supposed they are two different things - the Spirit and fire. They are one in the same, exactly as being born of water and the Spirit are one in the same.



kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/29/2008 4:44:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

When Scripture speaks of "filled with the Spirit" it is used in connection with those who are about to prophesy - speak the word of God.

So I guess "filled with the Spirit" is not to be taken as a general term that can be applied to every Christian, since not all Christians prophecy. Which would mean that not all Christians are "filled with the Spirit."

And yet 1 Corinthians 12:13 says, For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body. (Emphasis mine.)
Of course, it applies to all Christians. That was the purpose of Pentecost. Beginning at Pentecost every believer became filled with the Spirit, meaning he became qualified and mandated to be a "prophet" - declare the Word of God. This is in sharp contrast to OT times when very few were filled with the Spirit so that they could declare a message from God.



kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/29/2008 5:00:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomb

(Acts 22:16) teach that Paul's sins were forgiven at the point of baptism,not before. What kind of baptism one may ask? The Lord answers the question in (Acts 8:38-39).

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into (the water), both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Actually, the question, if there is one, is not answered in Acts 8:38-39. There is no legitimate reason, other than theological presupposition, to draw the same conclusion from two entirely different passages many chapters apart. Water is not mentioned in Acts 22:16 and neither does water wash away sins.

quote:

There is only one baptism today and that is water baptism (Eph.4:5)
Eph 4:5 doesn't say that at all. In fact, only the Spirit is mentioned in that entire chapter "4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism"



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/29/2008 7:59:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

And that event is the regeneration of the sinner, hardly an "incidental" occurrence.

Of course the regeneration of the sinner is not "incidental." The fact that it's referred to as a baptism, however, is incidental, since it's also referred to in other ways, i.e., "drinking of the living water."



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/29/2008 8:06:20 AM)

quote:

We see no mention of "baptism". Water baptism cannot be meant since it holds no regenerative ability as proven by the account of Simon Magus.
I agree that the word "baptism" does not occur in John 3:5 but, if Jesus is using the term literally then the only spiritual birth that involves water is baptism. Simon Magus is a whole 'nother story.

quote:

It is not redundant, rather, a similitude - of the same likeness. The term is used to teach a spiritual truth. Just as it says Christ will baptize with the Spirit and with fire. It is not to be supposed they are two different things - the Spirit and fire. They are one in the same, exactly as being born of water and the Spirit are one in the same.

I don't think the Spirit and fire are the same thing. I think the baptism of the Spirit and the baptism of fire are two separate, distinct events. The may occur simultaneously I suppose, but they're not the same. And in John 3:5 Jesus is talking about a single birth that involves water and the Spirit. The only experience in the life of a Christian that involves both water and the Spirit is baptism.



kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/29/2008 5:25:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

And that event is the regeneration of the sinner, hardly an "incidental" occurrence.

Of course the regeneration of the sinner is not "incidental." The fact that it's referred to as a baptism, however, is incidental, since it's also referred to in other ways, i.e., "drinking of the living water."
I disagree. If Jesus Christ thought it important enough to teach us that regeneration is called the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and that it is He who performs this action, we may never say the term He uses for this most monumental event in a sinner's life is "incidental".



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