RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (Full Version)

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kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/29/2008 5:29:46 PM)

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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

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ORIGINAL: kelman
We see no mention of "baptism". Water baptism cannot be meant since it holds no regenerative ability as proven by the account of Simon Magus.
I agree that the word "baptism" does not occur in John 3:5 but, if Jesus is using the term literally then the only spiritual birth that involves water is baptism. Simon Magus is a whole 'nother story.
No reason to come to that conclusion either from the verse or context. There is no evidence that the spiritual rebirth includes water baptism. In fact, the evidence excludes it. Jesus said He will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire. Is "fire" literal or a similitude for the Holy Spirit? Just as in John 3:5 water is a similitude for the Holy Spirit. God uses many allegories for the Holy Spirit - oil, for another. We have three in use - water, fire and oil.

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It is not redundant, rather, a similitude - of the same likeness. The term is used to teach a spiritual truth. Just as it says Christ will baptize with the Spirit and with fire. It is not to be supposed they are two different things - the Spirit and fire. They are one in the same, exactly as being born of water and the Spirit are one in the same.
I don't think the Spirit and fire are the same thing. I think the baptism of the Spirit and the baptism of fire are two separate, distinct events. The may occur simultaneously I suppose, but they're not the same.
You don't think they are the same thing? Where do we see any evidence of their differences? Are we baptized with a literal fire?...no; but, we are baptized with the similitude of fire - the Holy Spirit. Again, fire is often seen in Scripture to be a manifestation of God's presence....there are just too many verses to that effect to list here.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/29/2008 6:02:13 PM)

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ORIGINAL: kelman

I disagree. If Jesus Christ thought it important enough to teach us that regeneration is called the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and that it is He who performs this action, we may never say the term He uses for this most monumental event in a sinner's life is "incidental".

Actually, as far as I know, Jesus never uttered the phrase "baptized in the Holy Spirit." That was a phrase used by John the Baptist describing what Jesus would do compared with what he was doing.

When Jesus referred to the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer He called it "drinking of the living water."



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/29/2008 6:15:19 PM)

After further research I've found that I was in error in the above post. Jesus did use the phrase "baptized in the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5; 11:16). However, though it may be a minor point, He didn't say that He would baptize in the Holy Spirit. He did say, "For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." Since He said this immediately after He mentions the baptism of John it seems fairly apparent that He's using baptism as a figure of speech to refer to the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/29/2008 6:19:12 PM)

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ORIGINAL: kelman

You don't think they are the same thing? Where do we see any evidence of their differences? Are we baptized with a literal fire?...no; but, we are baptized with the similitude of fire - the Holy Spirit. Again, fire is often seen in Scripture to be a manifestation of God's presence....there are just too many verses to that effect to list here.
No, I don't think they're the same thing. I think the baptism in fire is referring to the suffering that the early Christians endured. I think that's completely different from the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I also think being born of water and being born of the Spirit are not the same thing, although I do believe that they occur simultaneously and are two aspects of one event -- the entering into the body of Christ of the believer.



kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/30/2008 5:04:08 AM)

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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

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ORIGINAL: kelman

I disagree. If Jesus Christ thought it important enough to teach us that regeneration is called the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and that it is He who performs this action, we may never say the term He uses for this most monumental event in a sinner's life is "incidental".

Actually, as far as I know, Jesus never uttered the phrase "baptized in the Holy Spirit." That was a phrase used by John the Baptist describing what Jesus would do compared with what he was doing.
Actually, Jesus did "utter" the phrase "baptized with the Holy Ghost" in Acts 1:5. But, even if He hadn't it is no less authoritative being taught by anyone in Scripture. Afterall, God is the Author of all we find in Scripture.

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When Jesus referred to the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer He called it "drinking of the living water."
That's one way He referred to it. But, also we find the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, being "born from above", the new birth, the new creature, the new heart, the new spirit, regeneration, being quickened, circumcision of the heart.



kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/30/2008 5:14:10 AM)

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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

After further research I've found that I was in error in the above post. Jesus did use the phrase "baptized in the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5; 11:16).
Hope you don't mind, I didn't go back to edit my response to that post.

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However, though it may be a minor point, He didn't say that He would baptize in the Holy Spirit.
It most definitely is not a "minor" point; and, it is most definitely an incorrect point. How can we ever consider salvation a "minor point"?

We need only compare Acts 1:5 to another passage to see that it is, in fact, Jesus Christ Himself who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

and...

Mark 1:5 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

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He did say, "For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." Since He said this immediately after He mentions the baptism of John it seems fairly apparent that He's using baptism as a figure of speech to refer to the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.
It really isn't a "figure of speech" because it is only the Holy Spirit who can wash away sins which is the definition of baptism - wash.



kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/30/2008 5:17:39 AM)

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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

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ORIGINAL: kelman

You don't think they are the same thing? Where do we see any evidence of their differences? Are we baptized with a literal fire?...no; but, we are baptized with the similitude of fire - the Holy Spirit. Again, fire is often seen in Scripture to be a manifestation of God's presence....there are just too many verses to that effect to list here.
No, I don't think they're the same thing. I think the baptism in fire is referring to the suffering that the early Christians endured.
What is your scriptural support for such thoughts? I doubt you'll find any. But, we do find tremendous scriptural support for the fact that "fire" is used as a manifestation of God. Aside from fire referencing God, it is often used to convey judgment. But, "early Christians"...nope.

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I think that's completely different from the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Since it is said that Christ baptises with the Holy Spirit AND fire, there is no justification for suggesting it applies to only a small segment of believers.

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I also think being born of water and being born of the Spirit are not the same thing, although I do believe that they occur simultaneously and are two aspects of one event -- the entering into the body of Christ of the believer.
There is no evidence that the new birth includes water baptism. At best, water baptism is the "symbol of the thing signified".

We see that Christ is speaking "spiritually" not physically as Nicodemus erroneously thought. In John 3, Christ uses the figures of water and wind being indicative of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. Just as we see "water" being used metaphorically in John 4:14 and Eze 36:25 to reflect the grace of God in regeneration as He washes our sins away. In Scripture, we never see the word "water" by itself referring to baptism.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/30/2008 8:30:48 AM)

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ORIGINAL: kelman

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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

After further research I've found that I was in error in the above post. Jesus did use the phrase "baptized in the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5; 11:16).
Hope you don't mind, I didn't go back to edit my response to that post.
No problem. I often post before reading all the responses, myself. [:)]

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However, though it may be a minor point, He didn't say that He would baptize in the Holy Spirit.
It most definitely is not a "minor" point; and, it is most definitely an incorrect point. How can we ever consider salvation a "minor point"?

We need only compare Acts 1:5 to another passage to see that it is, in fact, Jesus Christ Himself who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

and...

Mark 1:5 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
OK, you got me. You're correct! Jesus is the One Who baptizes in the Holy Spirit. [:)]

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He did say, "For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." Since He said this immediately after He mentions the baptism of John it seems fairly apparent that He's using baptism as a figure of speech to refer to the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.
It really isn't a "figure of speech" because it is only the Holy Spirit who can wash away sins which is the definition of baptism - wash.
But it is a figure of speech. Even to say that the Holy Spirit "washes away sin" is a metaphorical way of saying that the Holy Spirit gets rid of our sin. That is not to say that it doesn't really happen, because it does. It's a continuation of the metaphor of "baptism" being used for what the Holy Spirit does in the life of a believer.

I agree that the definition of baptism is "wash" and the only literal way to wash is with water. Washings, when referring to what the Holy Spirit does are metaphors. That doesn't mean that what the Holy Spirit does doesn't really happen though. Obviously the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believe is essential. But referring to it as a "baptism" is metaphorical.



kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/31/2008 2:05:50 AM)

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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman
It really isn't a "figure of speech" because it is only the Holy Spirit who can wash away sins which is the definition of baptism - wash.
But it is a figure of speech. Even to say that the Holy Spirit "washes away sin" is a metaphorical way of saying that the Holy Spirit gets rid of our sin. That is not to say that it doesn't really happen, because it does. It's a continuation of the metaphor of "baptism" being used for what the Holy Spirit does in the life of a believer.
You're right, of course, it is metaphorical. It's not as if the Holy Spirit takes soap and water to our spirit :)

While water baptism is literal, it is not spiritually substantive, it can only wash away dirt from the skin. It's symbolic of, or the shadow of, the substantive spiritual action performed by God - washing away of sins.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (8/31/2008 7:15:54 AM)

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ORIGINAL: kelman

While water baptism is literal, it is not spiritually substantive, it can only wash away dirt from the skin. It's symbolic of, or the shadow of, the substantive spiritual action performed by God - washing away of sins.
I would submit that water baptism doesn't even wash away dirt from the skin since no soap is involved. It is purely symbolic of what's occurring spiritually in the life of the believer.



kelman -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (9/2/2008 1:19:40 AM)

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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

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ORIGINAL: kelman

While water baptism is literal, it is not spiritually substantive, it can only wash away dirt from the skin. It's symbolic of, or the shadow of, the substantive spiritual action performed by God - washing away of sins.
I would submit that water baptism doesn't even wash away dirt from the skin since no soap is involved. It is purely symbolic of what's occurring spiritually in the life of the believer.
My point was the only thing water can do is wash away dirt from the skin - with or without soap.

As we discussed before, when a person comes forward to be water baptized he is, presumably, evidencing saving faith. And if so, he has already experienced the washing away of his sins by the Holy Spirit.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (9/2/2008 8:47:57 AM)

When a person comes forward they are certainly evidencing belief. Whether or not they are evidencing saving faith is another question. Based upon Scripture I don't see the Holy Spirit washing away a person's sins when they believe. I see that occuring when a person is baptized. It is still the Holy Spirit washing away sin, though, whether it happens when one believes or when one is baptized. Even though they are both necessary in precisely the same way, belief and the baptism don't, in and of themselves, wash away sins. Only the Holy Spirit does that.



VCO -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (9/3/2008 4:22:23 AM)

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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

. . . Whether or not they are evidencing saving faith is another question. Based upon Scripture I don't see the Holy Spirit washing away a person's sins when they believe. I see that occuring when a person is baptized. It is still the Holy Spirit washing away sin, though, whether it happens when one believes or when one is baptized. . . .


U&U

Now let's see when Scripture says our sins are washed away, and by what:

Revelation 1:4-5 (NKJV)
4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

Acts 22:16 (ISV)
16 What are you waiting for now? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away as you call on his name.'

Luke 23:42-43 (KJV)
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Isaiah 4:4 (NASB)
4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and purged the bloodshed of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning,

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NKJV)
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

2 Peter 1:9-11 (NKJV)
9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;
11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Romans 4:3 (NASB)
3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Romans 4:9 (NASB)
9 . . . For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Now, WHEN was Abraham baptized? As far as we know, he never was. When was the thief on the cross baptized? He never was! If we know how God saved one man and washed away his sins, then we know how God saves all believers and with what their sins were washed away; BECAUSE God never changes:

Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

It is that Saving Faith, the kind that produces a willingness to OBEY, that credits the shed blood of Jesus Christ to our account, and it is that BLOOD that washes away our sins, NOT THE WATERS OF BAPTISM. NOT because of anything we have done or will do, but because of what HE did on the Cross. Yes those who ARE SAVED, will want to walk in obedience and be baptized; but NO ACT on our part cleanses or washes away our sins. That was completely done by Christ on the Cross.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Climbing into a Baptistry is a work, and it is NOT OF WORKS. Yes our sins were washed away BY HIS BLOOD that was shed on the cross, and because we have that Saving Faith, we follow the Lord in obediance into baptism. But if we were killed in a traffic accident on the way to the Church to be Baptized, our sins are still washed away, because that took place nearly two thousand years ago, as Jesus shed His blood on the cross. IT IS FAITH + NOTHING. In the following Scripture, Paul is confronting those who wanted to add something to FAITH as a requirement. You can subtitute the word baptized and unbaptized for circumcised and uncircumcised; and it would still be true; because it is "NOT OF WORKS".

Romans 4:9-13 (NASB)
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

John 19:30 (NKJV)
30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (9/3/2008 7:20:00 AM)

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ORIGINAL: VCO

Now, WHEN was Abraham baptized? As far as we know, he never was. When was the thief on the cross baptized? He never was! If we know how God saved one man and washed away his sins, then we know how God saves all believers and with what their sins were washed away; BECAUSE God never changes:

While it is true that God never changes, he ways of relating to mankind do change. Therefore, neither Abraham nor the thief on the cross were required to be baptized since baptism had not yet been instituted. God related to His people in the Old Testament through covenants such as the ones with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, and others. In these days God relates to mankind through His Word.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (9/3/2008 7:27:35 AM)

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ORIGINAL: VCO

It is that Saving Faith, the kind that produces a willingness to OBEY, that credits the shed blood of Jesus Christ to our account, and it is that BLOOD that washes away our sins, NOT THE WATERS OF BAPTISM. NOT because of anything we have done or will do, but because of what HE did on the Cross. Yes those who ARE SAVED, will want to walk in obedience and be baptized; but NO ACT on our part cleanses or washes away our sins. That was completely done by Christ on the Cross.

I'm not sure that the term "saving faith" even appears in scripture. However, certainly faith produces a willingness to obey, but the blood of Jesus Christ is credited to our account when we are baptized (Romans 6:3-4). After the first sentence, I agree with everything else in this quote. You seem to have a good handle on how our sins are washed way. [:)]



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (9/3/2008 7:39:47 AM)

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ORIGINAL: VCO

Climbing into a Baptistry is a work, and it is NOT OF WORKS. Yes our sins were washed away BY HIS BLOOD that was shed on the cross, and because we have that Saving Faith, we follow the Lord in obediance into baptism. But if we were killed in a traffic accident on the way to the Church to be Baptized, our sins are still washed away, because that took place nearly two thousand years ago, as Jesus shed His blood on the cross. IT IS FAITH + NOTHING. In the following Scripture, Paul is confronting those who wanted to add something to FAITH as a requirement. You can subtitute the word baptized and unbaptized for circumcised and uncircumcised; and it would still be true; because it is "NOT OF WORKS".

Climbing into a baptistry may be a work, but climbing into a baptistry is not what saves a person. I don't believe that the act of baptism itself is a work, either. But even it it were, it's not the act of baptism that saves a person. People are saved in baptism, not by baptism.

I'm not convinced that it is FAITH + NOTHING. I don't believe Paul believed that it was faith + nothing, either because he wrote in Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Emphasis mine). Looks like Paul thought faith + confession was required in order to be saved.



bob97 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (9/3/2008 3:19:19 PM)

Romans 10:8-10 ( NLT ) 8In fact, it says,

“The message is very close at hand;

it is on your lips and in your heart.ӣ

And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: 9If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

Seems pretty clear cut to me...it is confession that saves...nothing else is required.[:)]

Bob



bob97 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (9/3/2008 3:22:32 PM)

Sorry greatdivide...I guess I missed your post. But truth is truth.

Bob



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (9/3/2008 4:47:27 PM)

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ORIGINAL: bob97

Sorry greatdivide...I guess I missed your post. But truth is truth.

Bob
No problem. Truth is indeed truth. [:)]



VCO -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (9/3/2008 6:40:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

While it is true that God never changes, he ways of relating to mankind do change. Therefore, neither Abraham nor the thief on the cross were required to be baptized since baptism had not yet been instituted. . . .


U&U

NOW, notice that I was NOT quoting from the Old Testament, but rather from the NEW TESTAMENT. Let's read it in context:


Chapter 4
We Have God's Approval by Faith

Romans 4:1-11 (GW)
1 What can we say that we have discovered about our ancestor Abraham?
2 If Abraham had God's approval because of something he did, he would have had a reason to brag. But he could not brag to God about it.
3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and that faith was regarded by God to be his approval of Abraham.”
4 When people work, their pay is not regarded as a gift but something they have earned.
5 However, when people don't work but believe God, the one who approves ungodly people, their faith is regarded as God's approval.
6 David says the same thing about those who are blessed: God approves of people without their earning it. David said,
7 “Blessed are those whose disobedience is forgiven and whose sins are pardoned.
8 Blessed is the person whom the Lord no longer considers sinful.”
9 Are only the circumcised people blessed, or are uncircumcised people blessed as well? We say, “Abraham's faith was regarded as God's approval of him.”
10 How was his faith regarded as God's approval? Was he circumcised or was he uncircumcised at that time? He had not been circumcised.
11 Abraham's faith was regarded as God's approval while he was still uncircumcised. The mark of circumcision is the seal of that approval. Therefore, he is the father of every believer who is not circumcised, and their faith, too, is regarded as God's approval of them.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Climbing into a Baptistry is a "good work", and YES we are created in Christ Jesus for good works. But NO GOOD WORK, we can do, in anyway pays for our sins. They are washed away as a gift, "by Grace through faith"; faith and faith alone, because of the blood Christ shed on the Cross. Getting baptized is what we do because we genuinely are saved, NOT SOMETHING we do to get saved. Christ DID IT ALL, for both Old Testament believers and New Testament believers.

Hebrews 13:8 (NASB)
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.



VCO -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (9/3/2008 8:01:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46


I'm not sure that the term "saving faith" even appears in scripture. However, certainly faith produces a willingness to obey, but the blood of Jesus Christ is credited to our account when we are baptized (Romans 6:3-4). . . .


U&U

You are correct, the exact term "Saving Faith" is not literally in the Bible, but it CERTAINLY is implied. Scripture describes two types of faith, 1. a genuine faith that produces a desire to obey the Lord; and 2. an intellectual faith only, which produces no desire to obey, and thus that person is not saved, (inmates have an expression for that non-genuine faith, they call it: "Jailhouse Religion").

James 2:14-19 (NIV)
14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? {the implied answer to that question is: "NO!"}
15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

John 14:15 (NASB)
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

1 John 2:3-6 (NASB)
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

So we see there are two types of faith described in the Bible, as Saving Faith (Heart Knowledge of Christ) and a Counterfeit Faith (Head Knowledge only of Christ). These two radically opposing types of faith are also described in the Parable of Two Gates. Both groups in that Parable think they are Christians, non-believers are not even pictured in that Parable. Again in that Parable those who entered the Narrow Gate, have the kind of Faith that produces a desire to obey the Lord.

Matthew 7:13-23 (NKJV)
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

As for Romans 6:3, that clearly is talking about Spriitual Baptism, when we were "immersed" into the body of Christ. That happened the very moment we first genuinely "believed". When we finally climbed into a Baptistry, pool, lake, or stream; we were picturing what took place the moment we believed, but it was part of our Christian Walk, not part of our Salvation. True believers will want to be baptized, but they are not lost until they do get baptized in water. Thus the Thief on the was saved, and also all of those who died before they could get baptized in water, are saved. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT, Jesus DID IT ALL on the Cross. Praise HIM!

Romans 6:3 (NKJV)
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Galatians 3:27 (NASB)
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB)
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

The Holy Spirit "immerses (baptizes) us into the body of Christ" the very moment we genuinely believe.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (9/3/2008 10:47:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VCO

Climbing into a Baptistry is a "good work", and YES we are created in Christ Jesus for good works. But NO GOOD WORK, we can do, in anyway pays for our sins. They are washed away as a gift, "by Grace through faith"; faith and faith alone, because of the blood Christ shed on the Cross. Getting baptized is what we do because we genuinely are saved, NOT SOMETHING we do to get saved. Christ DID IT ALL, for both Old Testament believers and New Testament believers.

While I'm not convinced the climbing into a baptistry can be termed "work" I do agree with everything else you've stated in the above quote. [:)]



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (9/3/2008 10:49:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VCO

So we see there are two types of faith described in the Bible, as Saving Faith (Heart Knowledge of Christ) and a Counterfeit Faith (Head Knowledge only of Christ). These two radically opposing types of faith are also described in the Parable of Two Gates. Both groups in that Parable think they are Christians, non-believers are not even pictured in that Parable. Again in that Parable those who entered the Narrow Gate, have the kind of Faith that produces a desire to obey the Lord.
While I agree that there is a heart faith and a head faith, I'm not convinced that either one of them results in salvation all by themselves and can, therefore, be termed "saving" faith.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (9/3/2008 10:58:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VCO

As for Romans 6:3, that clearly is talking about Spriitual Baptism, when we were "immersed" into the body of Christ. That happened the very moment we first genuinely "believed". When we finally climbed into a Baptistry, pool, lake, or stream; we were picturing what took place the moment we believed, but it was part of our Christian Walk, not part of our Salvation. True believers will want to be baptized, but they are not lost until they do get baptized in water. Thus the Thief on the was saved, and also all of those who died before they could get baptized in water, are saved. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT, Jesus DID IT ALL on the Cross. Praise HIM!
Apparently Romans 6:3 isn't as clear and you maintain, since there are myriads of people who see literal baptism being spoken of here. Certainly when we are immersed we are immersed into the body of Christ. However, I can find no scripture that supports the idea that this occurs instantaneously upon our belief. Of course, true believers will want to be baptized and they are not saved until they are. Of course the thief on the cross was saved without baptism because baptism as a part of the Christian walk had not even been instituted yet. Absolutely Jesus did it all on the cross. Praise Him indeed!!!! [:)]



VCO -> RE: Are you saved but not baptized? (9/4/2008 4:46:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: VCO

As for Romans 6:3, that clearly is talking about Spriitual Baptism, when we were "immersed" into the body of Christ. That happened the very moment we first genuinely "believed". . . . Absolutely Jesus did it all on the cross. Praise Him!


Apparently Romans 6:3 isn't as clear and you maintain, . . . Praise Him indeed!!!! [:)]


U&U

Okey, now here is why I know we were immersed into the body of Christ the moment we first believed; it is my personal testimony:

I was raised in a Church, acknowleged that the Bible and all of the Scriptures about the things Jesus did were ABSOLUTELY TRUE, I attended Church regularly most of my young life, and even prayed over every meal; BUT I was not "Born Again" until 1978 when I was 29. I knew about JESUS, but I did not come to KNOW JESUS until after a nasty divorce that spun me into a depression that led me to three attempts at suicide.

The first two attempts, I had a pistol against my head, with the trigger half pulled, when an ABSOLUTE TERROR came over me, KNOWING THAT I WAS ABOUT TO WALK INTO HELL. I was NOT afraid to die, that is what I wanted. I did not care if I hurt my parents, brothers, or sister; I just felt totally WORTHLESS because I could not save my marriage, so I wanted to end it all. On the third attempt, I got drunker than any two men could get, and decided to arrange a fatal motorcycle accident. I saw them pouring new gravel on a dirt road earlier that day and knew that loose gravel was the most dangerous surface to ride a bike on. The perfect place to make it look like an accident.

About 1:00 A.M., I staggered out of the house, started my dirt bike, leaving the helmet at home on purpose. I wanted to hit head first at 60 mph, with no helmet. What happened next I am more ashamed of than anything I ever did. I approached that loose gravel mile with the throttle wide open, looking up into the night sky taunting God, "If you want me, you can take me anywhere you want on this mile!" God had every right to let me kill myself after that, because I knew the Bible said, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." I leaned out over the handle bars to insure a head first impact, and kept the throttle wide open for that entire mile. To my surprise the bike did not even wobble for the entire mile. As I come out the end of that country mile, back onto the blacktop road, I backed off the throttle and slowly headed for home, trying to figure out why I did not lose control and wreck my dirt bike.

After I got home I sat up still trying to figure it out, and slowly sobering up. About 5:00 A.M., I hit me, "I cannot ride a bike like that, even sober!" God had to of reached down and grabbed that bike, as if to say, "No you don't I have a plan for your life." Instantly something broke in my heart, and I think it was the pride of running my own life my own way. I fell to my knees in my bedroom weeping like a baby, as this terrible sense of guilt washed over me (not only for attempting suicide but also for my whole lifestyle). I cried out to God sobbing, "Lord forgive me! If You have a purpose for my life, then You are going to have to come into it and run it, because I am making a mess of it!" I meant that prayer with my whole being, and no one in the Church that I was raised in ever taught me to pray like that. I believe the Holy Spirit gave me that prayer, when I needed it most. I knew what I was doing was TOTALLY surrendering control of my life to the Lord.

NOW, I know that is the moment I was saved. BUT, no one in that cold ritualistic Church that I was attending ever told me that I needed to feed on the Word, to grow that new born again spirit in me, and NO ONE there ever said, "you need to be Baptized", in those 10 minute sermons that had little or no Scripture in them. I started being more faithful to Church attendance, fully trusting God to do something with my life. About six months later, at work one night, I got TOTALLY bored with my Country music, and started changing the channels. I turned it until I found someone teaching the Bible; and I did not even know we had a Christian Radio Station. It was Dr. John MacArthur's "Grace to You" program, and he was on the first night of teaching verse by verse through the Book of Revelation. I was amazed, it spoke directly to my heart, and I hungered for MORE. It took him 72 nights to get through the Book of Revelation, and I truly HUNGERED for the Word, and sincerely wanted more and more of that type of teaching the Word. What used to the most boring Book in the world to me, was NOW the most exciting. Soon I was searching for a Bible Teaching Church, because something seemed very lacking in my old Church.

Still I had not heard a Sermon that said I needed to be Baptized, but my spirit was growing DAILY, because I was feeding on the word. Another YEAR went by while I was Church hopping trying to find a Church that Taught the Word, like Dr. John MacArthur taught it, and during that time God brought my soul-mate into my life. We found the Church we were searching for, and it was a JOY to attend and be fed the Word. The Worship Service there had a half hour of music, followed by one hour Sermons of teaching the Word, that left us hungry to hear more. Then one Sunday Dr. Gil Rugh, taught a sermon on Baptism, and it stuck me in my heart, and I got lower and lower in the pew. The thought that I needed to go back to Church that night to be Baptized, came to me at a family picnic that afternoon, but I chickened out. (Again something I am ashamed of.) I had put $3 in the envelope in the pew to order a tape of that Sermon, but even when it came, I just tossed it in a box, as God was leading us to move to California and we were busy packing.

Happily we found a good Bible Teaching Church when we moved to California, and it felt like HOME. Then a few months later, as I was going through a box in the closet, I found that tape of Dr. Gil Rugh teaching the necessity of being Baptized. I popped it into the tape player, and it convicted me all over again, and I was Baptized the very next Sunday, NEARLY two years after I was SAVED. I know I was saved because of the HUNGER for the Word, the JOY and Peace Jesus had put in my heart, the desire to truly PRAY (not just mouth memorized prayers), and the continuing desire to Obey HIM, and serve HIM. My spirit was continually growing as I fed on the Word. Granted, even I strongly encourage people to be Baptized as soon as they are born again, in fact, I think it should be the first step in one's Christian Walk. Still I know my sins were washed away nearly two years before I climbed into that Baptistry, because I had geniunely come to KNOW HIM in my heart, that night that I cried out to Him weeping over my sinfulness, on my knees in my bedroom.



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