RE: What is a "Messianic?" (Full Version)

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TheoJunkie -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (3/31/2008 9:18:58 PM)

I don't know what a Pesach Seder is, but thanks for the information, and I'm glad to hear that your reasons for not participating are not related to perceptions of "full brotherhood."



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (3/31/2008 10:05:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie

I don't know what a Pesach Seder is, but thanks for the information, and I'm glad to hear that your reasons for not participating are not related to perceptions of "full brotherhood."


The Pesach Seder is the Passover meal. The following link discusses it a bit:

http://www.bereansonline.org/outlines/returntopassover.pdf



Ezra -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (3/31/2008 10:05:51 PM)

quote:

Edited to add: It seems that maybe some would like to throw this statement into the mix to discredit and write off messianics as legalistic or in error without ever addressing a specific issue. I find that tactic disingenuous.


Dave:

The specific issue to be addressed is the validity and feasibility of obedience to the Law of Moses after the Law of Christ has been established. This is a most critical issue. If, as Paul teaches, the Law of Moses is null and void in light of Christ and His fulfillment of that Law, then the Messianics are indeed in great error.

quote:

For me, communion at the Pesach Seder once a year is very special.


Here is a good example. The NT churches met on the first day of the week to partake of the Lord's Supper and to remember His death. Yet here is a Messianic who has rejected that in favor of the annual Pesach Seder, when the Pesach Lamb has already been slain once and for all time, and He Himself established the Lord's Supper. Thus the entire teaching of the NT is invalidated.



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (3/31/2008 10:11:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra
The specific issue to be addressed is the validity and feasibility of obedience to the Law of Moses after the Law of Christ has been established. This is a most critical issue. If, as Paul teaches, the Law of Moses is null and void in light of Christ and His fulfillment of that Law, then the Messianics are indeed in great error.


Paul doesn't teach that and this is not the right topic to discuss this. Do not provoke the moderators or they will shut this thread down.

This thread is a place for people to discuss what being a "Messianic" is and not the place for you to learn what Paul was really teaching.



Anisavta -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (3/31/2008 10:45:40 PM)

quote:

Just so you know... Gentile denominations that ignore the Law (which I presume you mean by Torah) are antinomian (licentious... which is just as much an error as legalism).

Sad to say as I get involved in some of the threads, many will fight tooth and nail against the Law. No matter how it is presented they get pretty harsh and try to argue me down.
quote:

Concerning the Law, I gather that Messianics uphold both the Moral Law and the Ceremonial Law (whereas other Christian denominations uphold only the Moral Law). Is this a fair statement?

If you mean Moral Law being the 10 Commandments and the Ceremonial Law being Sabbath and feasts then yes we uphold both. However the Moral and the Ceremonial are interwoven.
quote:

Let me ask you this: Would you have any personal issues with participating in communion at any other Christian church on a Sunday (i.e., would you be against worshipping with non-messianics and eating the Lord's Supper with them)? If so, why?


No I would not have personal issues with participating in communion at another church on Sunday. My husband and I attended a Christian church for many years before we began worshipping on Shabbat alone. My only concern for communion is the reason for it and the intent. I have been to some that I could indeed reinact the reason for communion in the first place to remember the sacrifice of Yeshua and the tie in to Passover. And I have been in some churches where I knew if I partook I would be in actual idol worship.
The beauty of the 1st Century believers was just as the L~rd intended it to be. Jews and Gentiles - one in Messiah worshipping together. And that should be how believers ought to be now. Jews should be able to remain Jews and Gentiles remain Gentiles. If a Jew worships in a Gentile Christian setting, they should not have to leave their Jewishness at the door. And visa versa. But as a Jew in a Christian setting, so often I have to deal with those who want to convince me that I am in sin and legalism for being Torah observant, or I am the token Jew who is the oddity and I am placed in an uncomfortable place where I have to field everyones questions. Lets face it - I wear headcovering which makes people very uncomfortable or curious and all eyes are on me. I go to Israel alot and I consider myself more Israeli than American and it shows in my dress and how I conduct myself.

As far as inviting you to a Passover Seder I would love for you to attend! If you lived in CA I would certainly invite you to ours. In fact my Rabbi goes to different churches during the Passover season and conducts Passover Seders. It is important for you as a Gentile to see the truth of the feasts and how they all point to Messiah. Passover is an ideal one and we welcome dialog.

I want to thank you Theo for the respect you have for me and iServeaJew. This is so refreshing to actually dialog without the hostility even though I know you do disagree with some of what we present. Keep asking the questions. That's how we all learn.
BTW Bereansonline is an excellent resource for Bible study as well as good information about Messianic things.



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (3/31/2008 10:50:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anisavta
If you mean Moral Law being the 10 Commandments and the Ceremonial Law being Sabbath and feasts then yes we uphold both. However the Moral and the Ceremonial are interwoven.

In my circles, we tend to look at all the 613 commandments as moral. They are all about loving Him or our fellows. And, would God command us to do something immoral? So, if non of them are immoral then they are all moral. :D



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (3/31/2008 10:55:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anisavta
No I would not have personal issues with participating in communion at another church on Sunday.


I totally respect your position. Personally, I don't because I want the once per year event to be extra-special for me. I attend a Sunday congregation in addition to my synagogue and when they have their monthly communion service with their leavened bread I really don't want to join them.



Anisavta -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (3/31/2008 11:11:11 PM)

I agree with you.
It is all moral.
But I see where Theo is coming from. He is asking I think if we obey the 10 Words and all the other Levitical laws. And I don't know where you stand on Rabbinic vrs Levitical laws. Of the 613 there are some that do not apply at all because the Temple is no longer standing so none of us can obey them. (even though we can do our Daily Amidah 3X a day in place of the sacrifices). There are laws just for women and laws just for men that comprise the 613.



Anisavta -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (3/31/2008 11:16:58 PM)

I did have issue with the leavened bread at the church we attended. I helped prepare the elements and when I did it I made sure we used matzo. But one of the guys who prepared it was of the law shmaw crowd and felt that G~d didn't care what we used or even how it was presented and he would use oyster crackers because it was easy. So when the bread was passed around, I would obstain. I took the juice but not the bread.
That was just one of the reasons I felt uncomfortable attending the church.



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (3/31/2008 11:19:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anisavta

I agree with you.
It is all moral.
But I see where Theo is coming from. He is asking I think if we obey the 10 Words and all the other Levitical laws. And I don't know where you stand on Rabbinic vrs Levitical laws. Of the 613 there are some that do not apply at all because the Temple is no longer standing so none of us can obey them. (even though we can do our Daily Amidah 3X a day in place of the sacrifices). There are laws just for women and laws just for men that comprise the 613.


I am pro-Rabbinic Laws as long as they don't contradict the Torah. I believe our Master continued to follow the oral Torah and I think discernment is important in realizing what is beneficial and what isn't. For example, there is nothing wrong with ritual hand washing (Mark 7) as long as you don't condemn others who don't follow that tradition. Does that make sense?



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (3/31/2008 11:23:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anisavta

I did have issue with the leavened bread at the church we attended. I helped prepare the elements and when I did it I made sure we used matzo. But one of the guys who prepared it was of the law shmaw crowd and felt that G~d didn't care what we used or even how it was presented and he would use oyster crackers because it was easy. So when the bread was passed around, I would obstain. I took the juice but not the bread.
That was just one of the reasons I felt uncomfortable attending the church.


Yeah, it can be very uncomfortable having close fellowship with people who are blissfully unaware of their antinomian theology. I attend a Vineyard congregation, so they aren't terribly traditional (which makes things easier). However, xmas and easter are probably the worst times and I usually skip those services surrounding those festivals.



Anisavta -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (3/31/2008 11:30:19 PM)

Yes it makes sense.
There are a few Rabbinic laws I follow as to not offend others. Such as eating dairy and meat together. In my own home I will eat poultry and dairy together, but at shul I refrain. I feel that it is better as Paul states, to refrain instead of offending.
These are the issues we as Messianics - Theo- grapple with. Again to those who are coming unglued that we are trading salvation for laws - that isn't the case at all. Believe it or not we are being led by the Holy Spirit in all our decisions.



Ps103 -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (3/31/2008 11:40:38 PM)

Please take the Law discussion to the Keep the Law? thread.

Thanks!

Do not reply to this message within the Community, or send me pms or emails about it.

If you have a question or concern, contact community@salemwebnetwork.com

Ps103
Forums Moderator



DaveW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/1/2008 7:03:01 AM)

TJ:

Torah is translated "nomos" which means Law in the LXX, but it primarily means "teaching." I suspect the word "law" was substituted because of the attutudes of the pharasees who equated teaching with Law. I cannot prove that. But that said, Torah or Nomos can be taken as more teaching than legalisic requirements. (not that the latter is absent) So it would seem that if someone is antinomian they fight against the teachings of scripture.

I know of no one who would really own up to that.



DaveW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/1/2008 7:20:12 AM)

I do agree that Torah observance/submission is an important element of Messianism. How much and in what way varies greatly from congregation to congregation.

I do think we can discuss Messianism, including that, in a way that does not wander over into the Law-vs-Grace area that needs to be in the one-stop.

As long as we stay away from whether the law is salvic or not, hopefully we will be OK. Mods?



TheoJunkie -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/1/2008 7:49:09 AM)

Thanks again Marsha.



Restored_Heart -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/1/2008 9:25:46 AM)

Probably the safest place for that is in this thread

But not all of us that question why are necessarily against you.... [;)]



DaveW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/1/2008 10:09:17 AM)

Restored - aka Hunter! Good to see you again.

Congrats on the little one!

Yeah, I know that not all questioners have an ulterior motive. It just seems like all sometimes.



Ps103 -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/1/2008 12:45:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart

Probably the safest place for that is in this thread

But not all of us that question why are necessarily against you.... [;)]



Amy and her little Peanut are absolutely correct.[sm=thumbsup.gif]

This thread is defining what a Messianic is, all discussion about whether one must keep the law has to take place in the one-stop thread. That is the board rule--and you have agreed to abide by the rules.

You may discuss which laws your congregations feel are necessary in the chat thread, but not in this thread.

We have one-stop threads for a reason. We know the subjects are contentious, and to keep the board from being saturated with such arguments, we confine them to one-stop threads. This is what works here.

Do not reply to this message within the Community, or send me pms or emails about it.

If you have a question or concern, contact community@salemwebnetwork.com

Ps103
Forums Moderator



JimboFletch -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/1/2008 1:27:46 PM)

I saw an emblem on a car at lunch today for the first time and wonder if it's a Messianic symbol:

At the bottom is an Ichthus with the fish body pointing down and the tail in the air. The tail is replaced by the Star of David and inserted into the top of that is a Menorah.

Anyone familiar with that?



DaveW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/1/2008 1:42:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

I saw an emblem on a car at lunch today for the first time and wonder if it's a Messianic symbol:

At the bottom is an Ichthus with the fish body pointing down and the tail in the air. The tail is replaced by the Star of David and inserted into the top of that is a Menorah.

Anyone familiar with that?
Yes. It is an ancient Messianic symbol (found in 2nd century dig sites in Judea) and actually has an official name: the Triglyph. It is the earliest known Messianic Jewish symbol and has become quite popular in messianic circles. In fact, if their dates are correct it predates the common use of the Star of David in regular Jewish symbology.

http://isv.org/triglyph.htm
http://www.paghs.net/grafted_in.html



JimboFletch -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/1/2008 1:47:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

I saw an emblem on a car at lunch today for the first time and wonder if it's a Messianic symbol:

At the bottom is an Ichthus with the fish body pointing down and the tail in the air. The tail is replaced by the Star of David and inserted into the top of that is a Menorah.

Anyone familiar with that?
Yes. It is an ancient Messianic symbol (found in 2nd century dig sites in Judea) and actually has an official name: the Triglyph. It is the earliest known Messianic Jewish symbol and has become quite popular in messianic circles. In fact, if their dates are correct it predates the common use of the Star of David in regular Jewish symbology.

http://isv.org/triglyph.htm
http://www.paghs.net/grafted_in.html

COOL!

Thanks, David.



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/1/2008 1:49:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

I saw an emblem on a car at lunch today for the first time and wonder if it's a Messianic symbol:

At the bottom is an Ichthus with the fish body pointing down and the tail in the air. The tail is replaced by the Star of David and inserted into the top of that is a Menorah.

Anyone familiar with that?
Yes. It is an ancient Messianic symbol (found in 2nd century dig sites in Judea) and actually has an official name: the Triglyph. It is the earliest known Messianic Jewish symbol and has become quite popular in messianic circles. In fact, if their dates are correct it predates the common use of the Star of David in regular Jewish symbology.

http://isv.org/triglyph.htm
http://www.paghs.net/grafted_in.html

Very good info.

We also know that these communities of believing Jews who continued to live by the Torah of Moses existed until at least the fourth century. Unfortunately, the early church fathers wrote about them and branded them heretics. Many of us agree that they weren't heretics and it is interesting to note that the Judean sect of the Nazarenes (THE original group of Christians) continued to practice the faith as passed down by the Apostles.



DaveW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/1/2008 2:15:29 PM)

Yeah I am familiar with them.

IMO, BIG mistake excluding them from the Nicean council of 325.



Anisavta -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/1/2008 2:18:19 PM)

Thank you for acknowleging that!
I have actually read postings of people who think we have made that whole thing up.



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