|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/2/2008 8:02:12 PM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 1465
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
What is being objected to is that *only* Messianics are the "right kind" of Christians, and that if the rest of us knew what was good for us, we would be too
Luke 9 46 …An argument arose among the disciples about which of them was the greatest….. 
unfortunately yes,I fully agree with Ps, that is the impression we get from some.
quote:
You are on a thread that says,"What is a Messianic". We are trying to tell you what one is. Unfortunatly those who are not Messianics come on here and try to set us straight. Can we not defend our beliefs?
To our heart content. There are many interesting things people would like to learn from messianics, Just as long as it’s not presented in “ I am better, more enlightened chirstian” You are very nice, Ani, but some boys here got to be more careful what they say. That is the way men are made, not very sensitive. Rabbi Akiva had a lot ot say about that ;) But it’s a part of what we love them for! (I only know one extremely, wonderfully sensitive guy – but he is unfortunately for me, gay)
Exhibit A:
quote:
If you don't "feel" convicted to follow the Torah it isn't because the Holy Spirit hasn't convicted you, but because you aren't listening correctly. Does that mean that you aren't saved? Of course not. You are just as saved as the Roman Catholic believers in the 8th Century were.
That is borderline " i am better christian" Isa,I now, you meant no harm, but on forums you got to be careful, for its easy to be misunderstood.
See this I show you rephrase of the same statement:
I feel HS conviction to follow Torah , and this is Scriptural and theological support of my view:…
Imho, that is very much worthy of consideration and would Appreciate if you please read it. Will be happy ot answer any questions, dear sister. Done deal. And Jews and Greeks are happy.
I apologize for the distraction. hope that settles it so we dont have to argue about that anymore...
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/2/2008 9:36:44 PM
|
|
|
Ps103
Posts: 11783
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
quote:
What is being objected to is that *only* Messianics are the "right kind" of Christians, and that if the rest of us knew what was good for us, we would be too.
But if you feel that way about Messianics you would have to take issue with anyone you do not agree with. Baptists feel that once saved always saved is the way to go. Penticostals think we should all speak in tongues. Catholics think Mary is up there on the Top 3 list. It goes on and on. If you are getting offended - stick to your own brand of denomination. You are arguing just as hot and heavy that your "way" is the right way too. How would you like us to react? "OK you win we will give up what we firmly believe and believe the way you want us to?" If you don't agree - you don't agree. If we don't agree - then we don't agree.
You are on a thread that says,"What is a Messianic". We are trying to tell you what one is. Unfortunatly those who are not Messianics come on here and try to set us straight. Can we not defend our beliefs?
In some of this, I agree with you completely, Ani--it is not a Messianic phenomenon. People practice their faith in the way they are convinced is correct.
On the other hand, *most* Baptists, Catholics, Pentecostals *and* Messianics I know are content to allow God to lead each individual to where He wants them to be and do not require that all other believers practice Christianity in precisely the same way they do. It is enough for most that we are bound together in Christ, and hat He will sort out our differences in His time and in His way
I have not made even the slightest attempt to dissuade you from being a Messianic, nor would I presume to try. You seem to be of the belief that I am somehow against you, and I am not.
I am not trying to change you in any way--I do not know where you got that idea. But, I also do not want to change my own religious practices--and that was what I was objecting to.
I am *not* trying to set you straight--unless you claim that I, as a gentile, cannot please God without following Mosaic Law. Do you see the difference?
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/2/2008 10:11:45 PM
|
|
|
Anisavta
Posts: 707
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Northern CA
Status: offline
|
quote:
What is being objected to is that *only* Messianics are the "right kind" of Christians, and that if the rest of us knew what was good for us, we would be too.
I have no problem with anyone being sure in their beliefs.
My point was that you have made this comment in other threads dealing with Jewish/Messianic beliefs.
It seems that whenever a thread is dealing with Law or Jews or Messianics it can't be left alone. A few people have this notion that we are the group that needs saving and they feel it their calling to show us the error of our ways. So we come out trying to defend ourselves and then it gets misconstrued that we think we are better than everybody else. Frankly we are just trying to keep from being shouted down.
As far as I can read no one is saying you are wrong we are right. What we are saying is we desire the right to state our ways without being told we are wrong. Lets face it Messianics are swimming upstream. We are going against church tradition. We are rocking boats. But think about Martin Luther when he came against the Catholic church - he was branded a heratic. And now because of him you are practicing your Protesant faith in complete freedom.
Just a side note: I find it interesting when I am out in public and especially in Israel at the airport and I pass a Christian tour group and they see me. I look pretty Orthodox with my headcover and long skirts. The looks I get range from, tsk tsk poor dear so lost to out and out distain. I'm sure a few of them would love to sit down and set me straight or save me. And this is the same thing I get from some of the posters. No matter what we say we come across as better than everyone just because we believe differently - even though we state over and over that Messiah is the bottom line for us all.
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/2/2008 10:22:06 PM
|
|
|
Ps103
Posts: 11783
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
|
I do not know what to say, Ani, except that you have made several assumptions about me in your post that are false.
Please, let us just get back to the topic of "What is a Messianic?"
< Message edited by Ps103 -- 4/2/2008 10:36:02 PM >
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/3/2008 6:39:03 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3594
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
Please, let us just get back to the topic of "What is a Messianic?" Definately.
A question:
There is a group (or maybe a few groups) out there that claim to be Messianic but have much animus toward the UMJC (Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations) and the MJAA (Messianic Jewish Alliance of America) and their international counterparts. They believe that everyone who is a believer is a physical decendant of Abraham (i.e. no such thing as a gentile) and are thus obliged to keep the law. (that is not the point) The name of one of the largest organizations under this umbrella is Messianic Israel Alliance (MIA). No I am not kidding. MIA.
Are they Messianics or Christians? What do you think?
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/3/2008 8:47:09 AM
|
|
|
TheoJunkie
Posts: 2378
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
Status: offline
|
quote:
Are they Messianics or Christians? What do you think?
I think the organization in question is simply seriously deluded. Not all who claim Christ are his.
I also think it is interesting that here again you have set "Messianic" apart from "Christian." I will take that as your final answer.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/3/2008 10:45:19 AM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 380
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
We have a clear presentation of Messianic Jews from the Apostle Paul's day in the book of Galatians. Paul had much to say about them, most of it not so nice. These were Jews who had heard the message of Christ, perhaps even been believers, but who were unwilling to give up their rituals and traditions. In other words they were unwilling to go "all the way".
There is not longer Jew or Gentile, Christ has made the two one. This is the great mystery that God kept hidden until the time was right. The life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ changed everything for all time. It is by Faith, through Grace we are saved. The law has done its work in us, showing us our complete inability to do what God requires. What God requires is perfection.
Christians is what we came to be called. A derogatory term that was applied to us, that we took on as a badge of honor.
"Christians" is what we are.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/3/2008 11:08:08 AM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 1622
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
quote:
We have a clear presentation of Messianic Jews from the Apostle Paul's day in the book of Galatians. Paul had much to say about them, most of it not so nice. These were Jews who had heard the message of Christ, perhaps even been believers, but who were unwilling to give up their rituals and traditions. In other words they were unwilling to go "all the way".
I have a clear perception of what a Messianic Jew is…a Jew who believes in Christ. Are Messianic Jews any different from the rest of us…there are some liberal and there are some conservative. Some feel strongly about traditional and others not so strongly.
All in Christ have the Torah (Gods laws) written on our hearts, it just that the gentile Christian does not have the tradition of Torah study and so we tend to ignore it as given in the bible, but we all follow it…like it or not.
I get really tired of the world stereotype that most attempt to fit the Jewish into.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/3/2008 12:07:22 PM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 380
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
Christians are not under the law, and those that are, are under a curse. There can be no mixing of the law and grace without grace being made ineffectual. The requirement of the law is perfection, and there is only one who is perfect.
Thank God Jesus has fulfilled the requirements of the law, freeing us who have accepted Him from its bondage and curse.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/3/2008 12:08:40 PM
|
|
|
wshepherd
Posts: 259
Joined: 8/2/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
It is by Faith, through Grace we are saved. The law has done its work in us, showing us our complete inability to do what God requires.
Salvation has always been by grace, through faith. That is an OT concept. When Galatians 3:11 says, "The righteous shall live by faith," it is quoting from Habakkuk 2:4, which says, "See, he is puffed up; his desires are not upright -- but the righteous will live by his faith."
If you do a study on the law, you will find that it did/does much more than just show us our complete inability to do what God requires.
None of the Messianics here are saying that keeping the law will save you. We know that it doesn't. Only faith in Messiah will do that.
But keeping the law has everything to do with living life as Messiah and the Apostles did.
And that is what we are trying to do, according to our understanding of Scripture.
_____________________________
Wanda Shepherd
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/3/2008 12:15:24 PM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 380
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wshepherd
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
It is by Faith, through Grace we are saved. The law has done its work in us, showing us our complete inability to do what God requires.
Salvation has always been by grace, through faith. That is an OT concept. When Galatians 3:11 says, "The righteous shall live by faith," it is quoting from Habakkuk 2:4, which says, "See, he is puffed up; his desires are not upright -- but the righteous will live by his faith."
If you do a study on the law, you will find that it did/does much more than just show us our complete inability to do what God requires.
None of the Messianics here are saying that keeping the law will save you. We know that it doesn't. Only faith in Messiah will do that.
But keeping the law has everything to do with living life as Messiah and the Apostles did.
And that is what we are trying to do, according to our understanding of Scripture.
If you could keep the law, then there would be no need for Christ to have come and died on a cross. You are correct that salvation has always been by faith, through the grace of God. The law was added...as you know...not to save or draw us nearer but to show us our need for a Savior.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/3/2008 12:27:21 PM
|
|
|
Ps103
Posts: 11783
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
|
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please take the discussion about keeping the Law to the Keep the Law? thread HERE.
Thanks!
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/3/2008 12:55:08 PM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3594
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
We have a clear presentation of Messianic Jews from the Apostle Paul's day in the book of Galatians. Paul had much to say about them, most of it not so nice. These were Jews who had heard the message of Christ, perhaps even been believers, but who were unwilling to give up their rituals and traditions. In other words they were unwilling to go "all the way".
While they were believing Jews (and well meaning just uninformed) they are what we would now term Judaizers. We see them in the begining of Acs 15 which prompted the first Jerusalem council that takes the rest of the chapter.
quote:
There is not longer Jew or Gentile, Christ has made the two one. God has also made husband and wife one but still you can see a distinction between male and female.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/3/2008 12:58:23 PM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 380
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
We have a clear presentation of Messianic Jews from the Apostle Paul's day in the book of Galatians. Paul had much to say about them, most of it not so nice. These were Jews who had heard the message of Christ, perhaps even been believers, but who were unwilling to give up their rituals and traditions. In other words they were unwilling to go "all the way".
While they were believing Jews (and well meaning just uninformed) they are what we would now term Judaizers. We see them in the begining of Acs 15 which prompted the first Jerusalem council that takes the rest of the chapter.
quote:
There is not longer Jew or Gentile, Christ has made the two one. God has also made husband and wife one but still you can see a distinction between male and female.
A Judaizer being what exactly?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/3/2008 2:05:28 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 1622
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
quote:
If you could keep the law, then there would be no need for Christ to have come and died on a cross. You are correct that salvation has always been by faith, through the grace of God. The law was added...as you know...not to save or draw us nearer but to show us our need for a Savior.
Don't you understand URF...if you belong to Christ you keep His law...it is written in your heart. That is the new covenant.
We don’t keep the ceremonial or sacrificial laws but you do keep the moral laws. Then again, I guess we do keep the sacrificial law because we have been reborn in Christ, we died with Him on the cross and reborn in His image.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/3/2008 2:18:55 PM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 1465
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
They believe that everyone who is a believer is a physical decendant of Abraham (i.e. no such thing as a gentile) and are thus obliged to keep the law. (that is not the point) ..... Are they Messianics or Christians? What do you think?
I think the organization in question is simply seriously deluded. Not all who claim Christ are his.
Amen, John!So they think when one becomes a believer he turns physically Jewish and have to obey the law? Transubstantiation of sorts….
And how does that miraculous transformation/newly obtained Jewishness demonstrates itself in the newly converted? Just in Law obiding piousness or jewish liabilities get added as well? :))
What,they start perpetually kvetching, chasing blond “Shiksa goddesses”, get proficient in money making, get blamed for the ills of the entire world, quit pork sausages, acquire nosy relatives, an IQ in a genius range and the ability to drink their own weight in vodka like my strict Hasidic neighbors?
I think the whole conspiracy is some extremely vain, balding fellow's elaborate excuse to wear kippah, that’s what I think this whole scam is, my beloved brothers and sisters…
Dawe, thank you, dear, that’s rich, you just made my day… Speaking of finding fun stuff in everyday life- where did you dig this from?! the Onion-worthy material..
Absolutely Seriously though - those two gangs are an embarrassment for true believers from Messianic and other Christian congregations. Shame on them.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/3/2008 2:38:20 PM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3594
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
A Judaizer being what exactly?
Act 15:1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
Those guys.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/3/2008 2:51:27 PM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 380
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
A Judaizer being what exactly?
Act 15:1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
Those guys.
You mean they wanted them to be circumcised so they could observe the law of Moses, correct?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/3/2008 3:10:27 PM
|
|
|
iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
Please, let us just get back to the topic of "What is a Messianic?" Definately.
A question:
There is a group (or maybe a few groups) out there that claim to be Messianic but have much animus toward the UMJC (Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations) and the MJAA (Messianic Jewish Alliance of America) and their international counterparts. They believe that everyone who is a believer is a physical decendant of Abraham (i.e. no such thing as a gentile) and are thus obliged to keep the law. (that is not the point) The name of one of the largest organizations under this umbrella is Messianic Israel Alliance (MIA). No I am not kidding. MIA.
Are they Messianics or Christians? What do you think?
I believe that people who believe that all believers are descendent from the twelve tribes of Israel are in error.
A Messianic and a Christian are essentially the same thing. If you're looking for a specific label to give them I would consider "Hebrew Roots", as that is a title often adopted by people like me who are returning to our Hebrew roots.
< Message edited by iSERVEaJEW -- 4/3/2008 3:17:05 PM >
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What is a "Messianic?" - 4/3/2008 3:14:37 PM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3594
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
You mean they wanted them to be circumcised so they could observe the law of Moses, correct?
Yes. Circumcision was the final step in formal conversion to Judaism. (still is)
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
