RE: What is a "Messianic?"

RE: What is a "Messianic?" (Full Version)

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URForgiven -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/3/2008 3:17:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven You mean they wanted them to be circumcised so they could observe the law of Moses, correct? Yes. Circumcision was the final step in formal conversion to Judaism. (still is) Can you explain to me the difference then between a Judaizer and a Messianic Jew?

iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/3/2008 3:19:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven We have a clear presentation of Messianic Jews from the Apostle Paul's day in the book of Galatians. Paul had much to say about them, most of it not so nice. These were Jews who had heard the message of Christ, perhaps even been believers, but who were unwilling to give up their rituals and traditions. In other words they were unwilling to go "all the way". I really don't think you understand Galatians properly. Those "Judaisers" were compelling new Gentile converts to undergo a ritual conversion to Judaism and become proselytes. Their error was in trying to get these new converts to believe that His grace wasn't enough. They compelled them to try to add to the grace of God because of their incorrect theology that said that only Jews can be saved, so a Gentile has to "become" a Jew. I've discussed this in detail in the following thread. Please, look into it. http://forums.crosswalk.com/Is_it_possible_for_a_Gentile_to_become_a_Jew%3f/m_3259144/mpage_1/tm.htm#3260451

URForgiven -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/3/2008 3:25:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven We have a clear presentation of Messianic Jews from the Apostle Paul's day in the book of Galatians. Paul had much to say about them, most of it not so nice. These were Jews who had heard the message of Christ, perhaps even been believers, but who were unwilling to give up their rituals and traditions. In other words they were unwilling to go "all the way". I really don't think you understand Galatians properly. Those "Judaisers" were compelling new Gentile converts to undergo a ritual conversion to Judaism and become proselytes. Their error was in trying to get these new converts to believe that His grace wasn't enough. They compelled them to try to add to the grace of God because of their incorrect theology that said that only Jews can be saved, so a Gentile has to "become" a Jew. I've discussed this in detail in the following thread. Please, look into it. http://forums.crosswalk.com/Is_it_possible_for_a_Gentile_to_become_a_Jew%3f/m_3259144/mpage_1/tm.htm#3260451 I think I understand Galations very well in fact. "You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?" Sounds a whole lot like what ya'll are saying here.

iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/3/2008 3:28:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 We don’t keep the ceremonial or sacrificial laws but you do keep the moral laws. Aren't all of His commandments moral? Would God command us to do something immoral?

iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/3/2008 3:36:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Odeliya Amen, John!So they think when one becomes a believer he turns physically Jewish and have to obey the law? Transubstantiation of sorts…. That wasn't very gracious of you, was it? I didn't repost your entire message because I didn't think it would be good to repeat it. Those people don't believe that someone turns physically Jewish. They believe that they were born that way. They believe that the 10 northern tribes of Israel were scattered around the world and God is calling them back to Him. If you'll remember, the other two tribes were called "Judah" after the split, while the northern tribes are "Israel". In the end times, God has said that He would bring Israel and Judah back together. This is part of the reasoning behind their ideas. However, I certainly don't agree with them.

iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/3/2008 3:44:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven You mean they wanted them to be circumcised so they could observe the law of Moses, correct? Yes. Circumcision was the final step in formal conversion to Judaism. (still is) They were to be circumcised so they could observe the CUSTOM of Moses. Acts 15:1 doesn't say "Law of Moses". There is a difference between the two, though "law" is often used to describe the "customs" as well. For a religious Jew, there are TWO sets of Laws. One is the Torah of Moses that was written down. The other is the oral law that was also given to Moses and passed from generation to generation orally. This oral law was written down a few centuries after Messiah, so at the time of Messiah it was still oral teaching. I also have to add that I understand the conversion process to START with circumcision and end with a mikvah, or immersion. I have detailed it in the thread linked below. That is the order it is given in the Talmud (oral law written down) and it is the sequence followed in modern conversions to Judaism. http://forums.crosswalk.com/Is_it_possible_for_a_Gentile_to_become_a_Jew%3f/m_3259144/mpage_1/tm.htm#3260451

URForgiven -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/3/2008 3:48:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven You mean they wanted them to be circumcised so they could observe the law of Moses, correct? Yes. Circumcision was the final step in formal conversion to Judaism. (still is) They were to be circumcised so they could observe the CUSTOM of Moses. Acts 15:1 doesn't say "Law of Moses". There is a difference between the two, though "law" is often used to describe the "customs" as well. For a religious Jew, there are TWO sets of Laws. One is the Torah of Moses that was written down. The other is the oral law that was also given to Moses and passed from generation to generation orally. This oral law was written down a few centuries after Messiah, so at the time of Messiah it was still oral teaching. I also have to add that I understand the conversion process to START with circumcision and end with a mikvah, or immersion. I have detailed it in the thread linked below. That is the order it is given in the Talmud (oral law written down) and it is the sequence followed in modern conversions to Judaism. http://forums.crosswalk.com/Is_it_possible_for_a_Gentile_to_become_a_Jew%3f/m_3259144/mpage_1/tm.htm#3260451 That's a stretch my friend lol.

iSERVEaJEW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/3/2008 3:59:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven That's a stretch my friend lol. This is a thread discussing what Messianics are. If you aren't interested in hearing OUR opinions then please quit bothering us. If you are indeed interested then maybe you'll read this: http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Acts%2015.pdf

URForgiven -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/3/2008 4:02:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven That's a stretch my friend lol. This is a thread discussing what Messianics are. If you aren't interested in hearing OUR opinions then please quit bothering us. Excuse me? This is Christianity.com isn't it? Have I somehow stumbled into Mesianic.com?

Ps103 -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/3/2008 4:19:35 PM)
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE Please keep this thread on the topic of the OP. The topic is defining a Messianic, not debating about it. You may do that in the Keep the Law? thread. Thanks. Please do not reply to this message within the Community. Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns. Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.

Odeliya -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/3/2008 4:31:22 PM)
quote: iSERVEaJEWThat wasn't very gracious of you, was it? You right, not very gracious,I would rather use the word Extremely gracious, so much more then such garbage ideas deserve! Please reread what they believe. (Its not Messianic, no Christian.) There are no Gentile believers ?! Little Chinese lady that lives in a rural village, her ancestors were all chinese that becomes a Christian is actually a Jew ? Native Americans that are Christians are all abraham descendents? Do you realize how disrespectful that idea is to many people? How racist if we take it seriously? Politest way to treat that junk was to laugh and joke at it. I do agree with John they are deluded, but figured they aren’t even worthy of serious approach… quote: I didn't repost your entire message You read my mind, Isa, thanks, for i actually need to add something before you repost. quote: And how does that miraculous transformation/newly obtained Jewishness demonstrates itself in the newly converted? Just in Law obiding piousness or jewish liabilities get added as well? :)) What,they start perpetually kvetching, chasing blond “Shiksa goddesses”, get proficient in money making, get blamed for the ills of the entire world, quit pork sausages, acquire nosy relatives, an IQ in a genius range and the ability to drink their own weight in vodka like my strict Hasidic neighbors? --- ----and the ability to laugh at yourself so you don’t appear selfrighteously acting “holier then thou” ? You say you returning to your Hebrew Roots? Please, do consider my last addition, it will be of major help to become closer to your authentic roots... [;)]

Odeliya -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/3/2008 4:35:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ps103 quote: What,they start perpetually kvetching Wait--that does happen! To just about everyone...hmmmm...maybe you are on to something here[8D] thanks! I knew there are more things we all here have in common then what divides us! According to that qualifier alone there are no Jew, no Greek, no man no woman, no Messianic no Christian on this thread :)

URForgiven -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/3/2008 4:38:22 PM)
The fact that you want to separate yourselves from Christianity by calling yourselves Messianic, means there is something that you think is different about you. Otherwise you would just call yourselves Christians, since that is what Believers are called. What is it you believe that makes you need to separate yourselves from Christianity by calling yourselves Messianic? Thanks.

Bluethread -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/3/2008 4:39:28 PM)
In short, I would say those who call themselves messianics reject dispensationalism. Though there are some cultural messianics who only embrace Jewish culture, those who are theological messianics believe Adonai has delt with man in the same way at all times. The only difference between Adam, Moshe, Paul and us is prospective and circumstance. The Adonai/man, man/man, and man/creation relationships have remained essentially unchanged. Of course this is a summary and there are various nuanced difference between believers as there are with any other grouping. As has been said, whenever two men discuss the Scriptures, there are three opinions.

Anisavta -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/3/2008 5:41:17 PM)
URForgiven - please quit trying to fix us. Really we are OK. Hang out in the Law thread where you can argue all you want. [;)]

Bluethread -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/3/2008 6:52:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven The fact that you want to separate yourselves from Christianity by calling yourselves Messianic, means there is something that you think is different about you. Otherwise you would just call yourselves Christians, since that is what Believers are called. What is it you believe that makes you need to separate yourselves from Christianity by calling yourselves Messianic? Thanks. Christian was an insult that the Romans and rabbinic Jews called those who followed Yeshua in an attempt to shame them. The Romans did it to connect them with the rabbinic Jews, christ being the Roman word closest to the messianic concept. The rabbinic Jews did it to imply that we were following a Roman god. When the persecusions came many accepted the name christian rather than die with the rabbinic Jews. Unfortunately this deception did not work for long. In short, I am not ashamed of the good news of Ha Meshiach Yeshua Ben Yehuda(The Messiah "Jesus" Son of Judah), for it is the power of Adonai unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Yehudim(Jews) first and also to the Greek.

DaveW -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/4/2008 7:46:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven Can you explain to me the difference then between a Judaizer and a Messianic Jew? I would hope that the previous posts on judiazers would explain that. A messianic Jew is a Jewish believer in Yeshua / Jesus as Lord and Messiah. This is usually accompanied by a close tie to Jewish religious and cultural observances being worked out in a New Covenant context. A Judiazer is one who insists on making YOU into a Jew.

URForgiven -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/4/2008 8:03:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven Can you explain to me the difference then between a Judaizer and a Messianic Jew? I would hope that the previous posts on judiazers would explain that. A messianic Jew is a Jewish believer in Yeshua / Jesus as Lord and Messiah. This is usually accompanied by a close tie to Jewish religious and cultural observances being worked out in a New Covenant context. A Judiazer is one who insists on making YOU into a Jew. I think I have a good grasp on who and what Judiazers are, and they do not have to be Jews by any means. From what I have seen written here, I see no difference between Messianics and Judaizers. If you are a Believer in Jesus Christ, if you have been born again of the Spirit of God, then you are a Christian. Just my humble opinion. Peace.

Anisavta -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (4/4/2008 1:21:28 PM)
I think you have no grasp of what a Judiazier was. Lets look at Acts 15:1 and see shall we? Act 15:1 And certain ones who came down from Judea taught the brothers, saying, Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved. Now according to this a Judiazer were some men from Judea (a region in Israel) who plagued Paul teaching that Gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved. So far no one has sent a Mohel to your door - am I right? No one has stated anywhere on this thread that circumcision grants salvation - correct? Since we clearly know that some of us are Messianics - may I ask what denomination you hail from URForgiven? You know something URForgiven - as I read some of the other threads concerning Messianics and Jews and the law I think I can honestly say you are the opposite side of the coin of a Judiazier. You my friend are a Gentileizer. You seem to follow us around trying to discount everything we say concerning Messianic Judaism in the same way the Judaizers followed Paul around trying to discount his message. Think about it.[&:]

thelouise -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (5/10/2008 8:05:33 PM)
I've read all the posts here but I was wondering about communion that was discussed earlier. Your services do not include communion but do they include kiddush? Tks, Louise

Anisavta -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (5/10/2008 9:57:40 PM)
Welcome thelouise. It depends on the congregation. In ours we have communion during Passover time to remember that Yeshua is our Passover lamb. But we don't have kiddush because we meet on Saturday morning. But among our people on Friday night erev Shabbat dinner we light the candles and do kiddush.

Bluethread -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (5/15/2008 4:03:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thelouise I've read all the posts here but I was wondering about communion that was discussed earlier. Your services do not include communion but do they include kiddush? Tks, Louise If you look at the context of "the lord's supper", you will see that this is Pesach(Passover). Whenever I eat the Afekoman(unleavened bread) and drink the third cup at the Seder(Pesach meal), I do so in remeberence of Yeshua Ha Meshiach(Jesus the Messiah). I'm sorry that Leonardo De Vince painted leavened bread, but that painting was commissioned but the catholic church.

psileste -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (5/15/2008 9:25:16 PM)
I just have to say that my visit to a Messianic Synagogue was one of the most uplifting experiences of my life. As a gentile I was treated so graciously and found the service to be filled with the Spirit. I believe that in this movement we are seeing prophecy fulfilled. The re-establishment of the state of Israel may have reconnected the bones, but the breath of spiritual Israel is now returning and bringing God's chosen people back to a relationship with the Messiah and that is so thrilling. I definitely saw differences between the Messianic and gentile worship services. I think that is a wonderful thing because frankly, we Christians have not done a very good job of witnessing to Jews. We've tried to force them to accept a replacement theology rather than accepteing that WE are the ones grafted in to the original tree. We have often come across as alien, condemning, and superior. I think that by keeping their own traditions, Messianics will be much more successful in bringing other Jews to Christ. Shalom to my Hebrew brothers and sisters in Christ.

Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (5/16/2008 12:24:42 AM)
Wow. Nice! Thank you.

LBolt -> RE: What is a "Messianic?" (5/16/2008 10:20:34 AM)
Thank You very much for the kind words, Psileste. I was starting to think we were cooky! LOL I'm glad you had a wonderful experience. That was the way I felt when I attended a Messianic service last year for the first time. I eventually joined! Our congregation held Passover at a Protestant church in Cleveland. Many pastors were in attendance and enjoyed the service! Some are looking forward to it next year and some felt "it didn't take all that." It was a very eye opening experience, because we contrasted it to the Easter and brought out the customs of both. The host pastor wants to do Unleavened bread as well as Pesach.

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