Is church too feminine? (Full Version)

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Beanteaser -> Is church too feminine? (3/25/2008 3:44:48 PM)

Hello,

I think church has become too feminine in recent years at the same time attendance among men has declined. Is this a problem?

Reasons I think church is too feminine: Music has become romantic love songs based on feelings (it's debatable, but I think popular male artists sound too feminine), flowers adorn sanctuaries, Kleenex boxes are all over the place (for crying BTW), we share what we feel rather than tell what we think.

Your thoughts?



dinomax55 -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/25/2008 4:01:30 PM)

I would have to agree that church services these days definitely geared toward women and children.. but what is the proper response? Is having a masculine-themed church a good idea (and what would it look like)?



APZR -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/25/2008 5:14:30 PM)

I dunno Bean, we have visited a couple lately that are hell fire and brimstone Baptist churches. Definitely not feminine, but I do NOT like being yelled at. I DO want intellectual discussions on the truth, not just yelling and telling me how bad I am.



jn1010lf -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/25/2008 6:41:47 PM)

Hello Beanteaser

I think it depends on what type of church you attend. Most churches that are open to the move of the Holy Spirit will be led by men that have know the Lord. Women should be involved as well but from what I see in scripture, men should be in the forefront of leadership. Women work with them, of course.



evryknee -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/26/2008 1:11:46 PM)

At the risk of sounding like I'm getting in touch with my feminine side (which I don't have, although Scripture does call me the Bride of Christ - so my Bride side)...

Perhaps it is the "manliness" that needs to be re-examined. Being in touch with our feelings does not sound manly, but as beings created in the Image of God, who has feelings, than wouldn't "being in touch" with our emotions be more reflective of a God who has emotions? He cried, he laughed, he was angry, the whole gamut of the human emotional experience (without the taintedness of sin). To deny our emotions, in some way, may be denying the very image of God in us. (Theologians, I'm aware that the Image of God means so much more).

Though I am certainly not against the worship songs of doing battle, being in the Lord's Army, or any such songs. Perhaps that would be great to suggest to the Worship leader. Or, perhaps we should start writing songs titled, "Die, Satan, Die!!" [:D]

I agree, though, many of the modern worship songs may be based more on emotions, rather than the intellectual & theological aspects of the hymns.



notmycity -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/26/2008 4:46:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beanteaser

Hello,

I think church has become too feminine in recent years at the same time attendance among men has declined. Is this a problem?

Reasons I think church is too feminine: Music has become romantic love songs based on feelings (it's debatable, but I think popular male artists sound too feminine), flowers adorn sanctuaries, Kleenex boxes are all over the place (for crying BTW), we share what we feel rather than tell what we think.

Your thoughts?


Yes.

One of the many apostasies to infect the church is that it has become “feminine”.

Interesting that it was actually my wife who I first heard say the phrase “feminization (and emasculation) of the church” as we had discussed this very same problem together years ago.

This of course has been manifested since as early as the mid-1800's (as evidenced by all the fluffy hymns), and it continues to escalate.

This is only opinion, but some of us believe it has its roots as far back as the Roman church, including “Mary worship”, as well as bridal theology, which teaches (falsely) that the church is so-called “the bride of Christ” (another thread).


In 1 Corinthians 16:13, the Spirit says through Paul, “Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.” In other words, act like men and be strong.

This is one reason we no longer attend these “churches”. Just try to “quit you like men, [and] be strong” and we have found that it is not received by women or men in these “churches”.

“....Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”

May He find us and ours faithful when He comes!



S00N3R_FR3AK -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/26/2008 7:03:35 PM)

Ive been a part of two large youth groups.

My first youth group that i was in for 5 years(still be there if i hadnt moved) The youth leader really connected with the guys and let us be guys. We played some great christan rock songs and did paintball and stuff.

The one i am in currently seems to have more girls. It is also harder to get closer with the leader as it is much larger then the one i was in. They also dont seem to play as many rock songs as my old one did.



HighPlainsDrifter -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/27/2008 12:59:25 AM)

I guess I haven't been of the mind to assign a gender to the various items in my church, and never really saw the appearance of floral arrangements as a feminine power-play, but rather something Widow Gramstad did on her own because she liked to. Would making it more stark, spartan and joyless enhance your worship experience?

If something as simple as flowers and "fluffy" music can keep men out of church then I guess us guys have made the devil's work pretty easy. Christian men in many parts of the world face death or imprisonment to worship. The repressive regimes trying to kill Christianity should get the flowers and kleenex memo, because it seems to work better than guns.



redeemedsaint -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/27/2008 1:26:28 PM)

Pretty much, the women are taking over instead of the men who just sit back and do nothing when they should be taking the lead and be the head of the household or whatever.



Beanteaser -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/27/2008 4:48:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YZGUY

At the risk of sounding like I'm getting in touch with my feminine side (which I don't have, although Scripture does call me the Bride of Christ - so my Bride side)...




I think the metaphor of the Church being the bride has gotten out of hand. It is only a metaphor much like we are sheep, coins, chicks, etc. Does this mean we should act like these things? BTW, the literal bride is not the church. See Revelation 21:9,10. But as Notmycity pointed out, that it a different discussion.



Beanteaser -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/27/2008 4:50:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter

If something as simple as flowers and "fluffy" music can keep men out of church then I guess us guys have made the devil's work pretty easy. Christian men in many parts of the world face death or imprisonment to worship. The repressive regimes trying to kill Christianity should get the flowers and kleenex memo, because it seems to work better than guns.


I understand you are being sarcastic, but I wonder if there is any element of truth in the above statement. [8|]



Konstantinos -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/28/2008 11:47:17 AM)

yes it is. the whole world is in general... i'd say... 90% of it



armydude -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/28/2008 12:13:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beanteaser

Hello,

I think church has become too feminine in recent years at the same time attendance among men has declined. Is this a problem?

Reasons I think church is too feminine: Music has become romantic love songs based on feelings (it's debatable, but I think popular male artists sound too feminine), flowers adorn sanctuaries, Kleenex boxes are all over the place (for crying BTW), we share what we feel rather than tell what we think.

Your thoughts?
In my church there's a balance (IMO). Yes there are flowers, but they're not all over the place; just in a few places. There are "romantic love song" type worship songs, but at the same time (and in the same service) there are upbeat worship songs that really get a guy moving. Well they get me moving anywhos. I've seen the men going for the Kleenex boxes in the sanctuary more than the women in my church. The women bring their own Kleenex boxes more often than not.
Is church in general too feminine? I don't know. But I can speak for my church and say that IMO we are not.



evryknee -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/28/2008 5:11:06 PM)

quote:

I think the metaphor of the Church being the bride has gotten out of hand. It is only a metaphor much like we are sheep, coins, chicks, etc. Does this mean we should act like these things?
quote:



I agree, it is a metaphor - though, I'll emphasize in a different way that tears are not feminine - they are human. Emotions are also human. These are also from God as we are created in His image. So, I'd challenge a bit more what "masculine" is in terms of emotions and the expression of them. I'm certainly not an adcocate, though, of wearing our emotions on our sleeves, but there is a time and place to share them - and if one has been moved by the HS, then I guess that may be the time & place.

However, I'd agree that most praise songs seem to focus more on the emotional, which has traditionally been in the feminine realm.

Blessings Beanie



x_SoliDeoGloria_x -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/28/2008 10:15:33 PM)

I think that recent trends in church architecture also reflect the feminization of the church. For example, many of the recently built non-liturgical churches that I have visited seem to be trying to create a theater type atmosphere, with the focal point being the stage (yes, they even call it a stage) where the worship team performs with a lot of thought put into the lighting effects, sound system, etc., all geared to enhance the audience's enjoyment of the performance. Then there is all the nice carpeting in soothing, neutral colors, the recessed lighting, the comfy seats, etc. This might sound sexist, but it seems that on some level, the whole setting is designed to appeal to the worshipper's feminine, "touchy-feely" side, as in "Oh, don't you just love going to the theater/symphony/opera/whatever." My sister recently told me that she and her husband visited one of these churches on a Sunday morinig, and when the usher escorted them into the sanctuary (excuse me -- auditorium) she smiled and said "Enjoy the Show!"[sm=popsigh.gif]

In contrast, when you walk into one of the old churches in my city, you're reminded more of a medieval cathedral, with traditional church architecture, stone and darkly stained wood instead of carpeting, massive lamps hanging from the ceiling by iron chains, etc. I'm probably sounding sexist again, but to me this seems like a more masculine type setting, telling me, at least on a subliminal level, that I am here to stand in awe of and worship the transcendent creator of the universe and redeemer of mankind (which I think is more of a guy thing), rather than to nurture my inner spiritual self (which I associate more with the feminine side of things).

To put it briefly, I guess I'm talking about what I see as the "Oprah-fication" of church architecture as one more factor in the feminization of the church.



HighPlainsDrifter -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/29/2008 12:55:15 AM)

x_SoliDeoGloria_x, I've seen the exact same thing when I've visited some non-liturgical churches in contrast with my 120 year old fieldstone Lutheran church. However, I'm not certain I'd chalk that up to "feminization" as I don't equate much of that new style with women as much as with modern, suburban, it's-all-about-me sensibility. Today, I think people feel like no matter where they are and what they are doing, they deserve to be comfortable, well-fed, and above all, well-entertained. It's not necessarily a worship service, but a stage production, replete with snacks, leisure seating, sublime audio and video effects and good-looking prosperous people leading the show.



sabadog -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/29/2008 11:15:58 AM)

I would say that it is not only the churches but the whole world. I thin k we live in a very feminine world. Take a look at tv commercials they are geard towards women. How many tv stations are their for woman and how many for men.

I have seen it in many different churches and denominations. Currently a woman who is in charge of my churches preschool decided to paint all of the classrooms without discussing with department heads. She painted one of the rooms pink another blue and the last one yellow. I dont have a problem with a woman bieng in charge of the preschool but I do not like the pink color. I am the C.E. director for my church and I have to use those rooms every week. My son attends the preschool and he is in the pink room. I am very unhappy about this.

I do think that men need to start voicing thier opinion more even if they offend someone after all Jesus did. He was not affraid to offend people. We just need to make sure that our motive is right and not for our own gain.



kljohnson77 -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/30/2008 8:49:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sabadog

I have seen it in many different churches and denominations. Currently a woman who is in charge of my churches preschool decided to paint all of the classrooms without discussing with department heads. She painted one of the rooms pink another blue and the last one yellow. I dont have a problem with a woman bieng in charge of the preschool but I do not like the pink color. I am the C.E. director for my church and I have to use those rooms every week. My son attends the preschool and he is in the pink room. I am very unhappy about this.

I do think that men need to start voicing thier opinion more even if they offend someone after all Jesus did. He was not affraid to offend people. We just need to make sure that our motive is right and not for our own gain.


Women in the pulpit and being a "pastor" over a church is unscriptural and deadly to a body. My body does not allow women to speak during our worship around the Lord's Table. The result is that, over the years, men have taken responsibility for leading in every area in the body, including teaching children. Moreover, to my knowledge, almost all of these men also lovingly lead their families--they don't lord it over their families.



denbert -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/30/2008 9:23:57 PM)

-
[sm=thumbsup.gif] Can I come to your church?



dinomax55 -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/31/2008 7:58:11 AM)

I would argue that balance is the key.. yes there is definitely feminization is going on, but we must be careful not to swing to the opposite extreme.. A lot of it is cultural, with some churches going out of their way to be comfortable, but I'm not saying we should resort back to monastic services with an emphasis on discipline and denial of comforts.. But you should be able to show emotion without being 'helped along' by the music choices and the overall attitude that emotion is more important than solid theology.



evryknee -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/31/2008 10:45:48 AM)

Perhaps the question we need to ask before we can answer Beanteaser's question of the church becoming more "feminine" is how do we define "feminine" and "masculine?" Are these defined by culture, or can we understand "Masculine" and "feminine" through the lens of the Scriptures?



vajent -> RE: Is church too feminine? (3/31/2008 1:59:50 PM)

No. The problem of male flight is not that the church is overly feminized. It's primarily because the church has become risk averse and visionless. Churches that wanna get men excited and involved are churches that are willing to not only preach a bold vision, but live it. That means taking risks and trusting God's bold leadership even when there's a price to pay. A church where the men are on fire for God is a church that is equipping men (and women) with a cosmic view of God's Kingdom that encourages creativity, outside-the-box thinking, and deep commitment. Right now, the church wants its people to be committed to ministry tasks, but that only goes so far. Churches that want their people to be committed to a vibrant ministry vision that is backed up by the Scriptures are the churches that have figured out how to reach men. Why? Because the idear of being empowered with the kind of vision that gets things done and encourages action is like water in a desert to men who have largely been defanged by the culture. As with most things, the church is at its best when it's being countercultural, and that includes its approach to men.

The problem of a deminimus vision has nothing to do with any feminization of the church. It has everything to do with the culturalization of the church where risks and sacrifice are frowned upon. You can't have a bold and exciting vision without risk and sacrifice. But how many churches have sermons talking about godly risk and the godly cost of discipleship as part of living out a Kingdom vision? This is where we've lost men, and men pastors and men church leaders are the primary culprits, not because of feminization, but because they've capitulated to the spirit of the age too and don't wanna have their comfortable existences upset too much by bold visions and godly risktaking.



gmedifast -> RE: Is church too feminine? (4/1/2008 11:00:36 PM)

Here is the problem,

Men have not been the leaders for years and years and years in the church. The churches I grew up in were kept alive by the Women of the church. It was the women who held fundrasiers to pay for the morgages, it was women who organized and lead prayer meetings, it was women who visited the sick and shut in's. There were very few men who were true men. I was raise in the AOG, we had a program geared toward boys called Royal Rangers. My leader was a woman. Howbeit we did have a man in the church who always let it be known of his royal ranger acoomplishments, but he never once helped in this area and further more when the lady left our church he did not step up to the plate and take over but bless God he had his badges.

Woman have been forced to work in area's they are not "qualified" to work because the men are just plan lazy. We have men in our church who would not take a leadership position, they don't function in roles men should function so it falls on the shoulders of women to do it or it want get done.

By the way, why is kleenex boxs not masculine. If I recall Jesus Cried a whole lot as did Jerimiah and many other pillars of our faith.



1love1God1way -> RE: Is church too feminine? (4/2/2008 1:27:47 AM)

Maybe you're all just too darn manly!



Konstantinos -> RE: Is church too feminine? (4/2/2008 6:17:58 PM)

HA! you got THAT right!



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