quote:

ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus

prophetica,

First of all I don't believe that scripture teaches a first resurrection then another. The scripture you provide say the resurrection not first resurrection. Second only full preterist believe that the resurrection has already taken place and from that I know of what they believe they don't believe a physical resurrection has already taken place but a spiritual one.

On book I can suggest to all is Revelation Four Views A Parallel Commentary by Steve Gregg.

I think what people fail to realize is that there are four main views: Historicist, Preterist, Futurist, and Spiritual.

Each view has sub-views. Futurist has Pre-Millennial, Millennial, Post-Millennial, Pre-Wrath, Post-Wrath., etc.

Also I believe that dispensationalist are mistaken but I wouldn't go as far as saying they are heretics and hell bound.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: mushhead


grahamcracker,
maybe I'm misunderstanding the definition of full preterism. As I understand it, full preterism is the belief that the prophecies of Revelation and Matthew 24 have nothing to do with end time events; rather they refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Partial Preterism teaches that the prophecies refer primarily to the destruction of Jerusalem, but a few also refer to end time events.

If my understanding of the terms is correct, then it doesn't matter what Sproul says, because Hank definitely was teaching a full preterist interpretation (Oh Lord, I pray my memory is serving me well on this subject!). I really respect Sproul (and I have respect for Hank as well), but Hank has changed some of his doctrinal positions over the years, so it isn't unreasonable to think that he might have been influenced by some "scholarship" on the subject. On the programs I referred to Hank had a guest whose opinions Hank really agreed with. In fact they went back and forth in their description of what the prophecies meant. This man could have been the "scholar" who influenced him.

One last point, I'm not sure how full preterism (as I understand it) affects someone's orthodoxy.

Yes and no. Some Partial Preterists believe that all of Matt 24 has been completely fulfilled and some believe that most of it has been fulfilled. Partial Preterism teaches that most of Revelation has been fulfilled. The general resurrection of the dead and the final coming of Christ is still yet future.

Full Preterism teaches that all of Matt 24 has been fulfilled, much like some Partials. They also teach (in my understanding) that the resurrection from the dead has already happened. I can't give the details since I don't know as much as I's like. But in that variation, according to my reading, it is so far out there that you would have to wind up denying some pretty core doctrines of evangelical Christianity if you were to believe it. Nutter stuff, anyway.

Partial Preterists would say that the term Preterism used to refer to Partial Preterism but that Full Preterists have coopted the term. Now, non-Preterists tend to confuse Full-Preterism with Partial Preterism. I subscribe to many of the views of Partial Preterism but I have been accused of believing in things that I simply cannot accept.

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophetica

Blessings in The Lord! I cannot afford the subscription right now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mushhead


GrahamCracker,
thanks for the info in both your posts! I have another question: What type of preterist are those who believe that all of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and that all of Revelation was nothing more than a message of encouragement to the Christians of that period who were suffering persecution at the hands of the Roman empire?
(Additional information: this group does not believe the resurrection has already taken place, for that is an entirely different issue. This group believes that Revelation was fulfilled in the first or second century, and has nothing at all to say about end time events.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker


That sounds like Full-Preterists to me. I hope you aren't going to tell me Hank Haanegraf says that.[sm=angertalk.gif][sm=frown.gif]

quote:

Therefore, I heard that Hank shares the bad news on his show that the cults are spreading quickly in other countries. One of the reasons for this, is their model is free will gift and free books and supplies. One cannot help but notice that our focus is to be on Jesus, not everyone else. This means that it is a productive format to wage war against the false teachings and teachers to offer it free for those who cannot afford to buy the subscription. How come, then, didn't he realize this? I would like to see a free subscription proliferated to those who need it most.

quote:

First of all I don't believe that scripture teaches a first resurrection then another. The scripture you provide say the resurrection not first resurrection.

Either way, they are teaching that The Millennium has occurred and that means that they are asserting that the first resurrection has also happened. This is false and is not in accordance with the Sound Instruction found in the Holy Scriptures of God. One must correct one's doctrinal errors in order to remain in the faithfullness to Jesus Christ is what Hank teaches about others.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: mushhead


GrahamCracker,
thanks for the info in both your posts! I have another question: What type of preterist are those who believe that all of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and that all of Revelation was nothing more than a message of encouragement to the Christians of that period who were suffering persecution at the hands of the Roman empire?
(Additional information: this group does not believe the resurrection has already taken place, for that is an entirely different issue. This group believes that Revelation was fulfilled in the first or second century, and has nothing at all to say about end time events.)

That sounds like Full-Preterists to me. I hope you aren't going to tell me Hank Haanegraf says that.[sm=angertalk.gif][sm=frown.gif]

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ORIGINAL: earthless

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker


That sounds like Full-Preterists to me. I hope you aren't going to tell me Hank Haanegraf says that.[sm=angertalk.gif][sm=frown.gif]

Read the three links I provided on the first page. In one of them he actually clearly says he does not.

quote:

Sigmund: “There is also remarkable evidence for Nero as the Beast and his persecution as the great tribulation.”

Hank: “Not only is the end-time model presented in Left Behind hermeneutically false in that it attributes powers to the beast that belong only to God, but it is historically false because it places the beast in the twenty-first century. While Daniel was instructed to seal up prophecy because the time of fulfillment was in the far future (Daniel 8:26; 12:4, 9; cf. 9:24), John was told not to seal up his prophecy because its fulfillment was fore future (Revelation 22:10). John’s repeated use of such words and phrases as soon and the time is near demonstrate conclusively that John could not have had the twenty-first century in mind (e.g., Revelation 1:1, 3; 22:6).”

Hank: “Conversely, in The Last Disciple series, the beast is placed squarely where he belongs—in a first-century milieu.”

quote:

Sigmund: “As the characters in the novel deal with tribulation, they are sustained by the hope of resurrection that Jesus gives all of us, not with a belief that they are meant to be taken away from trouble by a rapture.”

Hank “The book of Revelation, like all of Scripture, was not written to us but for us. In other words, Revelation was not written to twenty-first-century believers but to first century Christians facing the mother of all tribulations. As such, the apostle John describes himself as a “brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation,” which the early Christian church was enduring (Revelation 1:9)… Thus, the great tribulation instigated by Nero is the antitype for every type and tribulation that follows before we experience the reality of our own resurrection at the second coming of Christ.”

quote:

“In our view the great and glorious hope of believers is not found in rapture but in the blessed hope of resurrection. Thus, in the ebb and flow of history, we will continue to experience periods of relative peace and periods of tribulation until Christ comes again, the dead are resurrected, and the problem of sin is fully and finally resolved.”

“In e2 my goal is to provide readers with a simple and easy to understand guide to the art and science of biblical interpretation. Armed with the tools for proper biblical interpretation they will no longer fall for The Tim LaHaye Study Bible interpretation that Revelation 14:20 is intended to communicate that in a twenty-first-century battle of Armageddon the blood of Christ’s enemies will create a literal river of blood one hundred and eighty miles long that rises to the level of a horse’s bridle.”

quote:

ORIGINAL: mushhead

This sure sounds like Hank believes that the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled in the first century, which as has been established in our discussions, is "full preterism."

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker

GrahamCracker,
thanks for the info in both your posts! I have another question: What type of preterist are those who believe that all of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and that all of Revelation was nothing more than a message of encouragement to the Christians of that period who were suffering persecution at the hands of the Roman empire?
(Additional information: this group does not believe the resurrection has already taken place, for that is an entirely different issue. This group believes that Revelation was fulfilled in the first or second century, and has nothing at all to say about end time events.)

quote:

Hello in The Lord Jesus Christ our Savior! All of the Prophecies in Revelation cannot be accounted for by reciting the historical events of nero etc. We see that it is written regarding the false prophet leader who makes war on the Saints of God and conquers some of them in Daniel and Revelation...

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker

quote:

Hello in The Lord Jesus Christ our Savior! All of the Prophecies in Revelation cannot be accounted for by reciting the historical events of nero etc. We see that it is written regarding the false prophet leader who makes war on the Saints of God and conquers some of them in Daniel and Revelation...

propehtica,

They can and the Partial Preterist scheme makes a lot more sense than the Dispensationlist one.

Look. The pros and cons of Preterism, in general, will not be resolved in a thread dedicated to Hank Hanegraf. So let's not try.

quote:

This is why some could not discern when The Lord came during His earthly ministry

quote:

ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
prophetica,

First of all I don't believe that scripture teaches a first resurrection then another. The scripture you provide say the resurrection not first resurrection. Second only full preterist believe that the resurrection has already taken place and from that I know of what they believe they don't believe a physical resurrection has already taken place but a spiritual one.

On book I can suggest to all is Revelation Four Views A Parallel Commentary by Steve Gregg.

I think what people fail to realize is that there are four main views: Historicist, Preterist, Futurist, and Spiritual.

Each view has sub-views. Futurist has Pre-Millennial, Millennial, Post-Millennial, Pre-Wrath, Post-Wrath., etc.

Also I believe that dispensationalist are mistaken but I wouldn't go as far as saying they are heretics and hell bound.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mushhead
Child4Jesus,
At my last church, I used the book you recommended as my main source (right after the Bible) to teach the four views of revelation. It is an excellent resource. Studying the four views made at least one thing stand out... there is some truth in each of the four views.

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

This is why some could not discern when The Lord came during His earthly ministry

This is exactly the argument made by preterits i.e. that Jewish leaders took prophecies literally which proved themselves not to be literal, and their conclusion is that many Christians today are making the same mistake.

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless



I can tell you firsthand that it is no joy to be labeled a "heresy-hunter." Yet, as the Apostle Paul instructed Timothy, we are to zealously guard the purity of the message God has entrusted to us, and for good reason (1 Timothy 1:18-19; 6:20; 2 Timothy 4:2-5).

As for CRI - it's the most popular of apologetic question & answer radio broadcasts, but there are some others which are a lot more meatier. The Bible Answer Man is more for those in the beginning levels of apologetics, it serves its purpose.

quote:

10 And the LORD spoke to Manasseh and his people, but they would not listen. 11 Therefore the LORD brought upon them the captains of the army of the king of Assyria, who took Manasseh with hooks, bound him with bronze fetters, and carried him off to Babylon.

--2 Chronicles 33:10,11

15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. 16 But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till there was no remedy.
17 Therefore He brought against them the king of the Chaldeans, who killed their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, on the aged or the weak; He gave them all into his hand. 18 And all the articles from the house of God, great and small, the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his leaders, all these he took to Babylon. 19 Then they burned the house of God, broke down the wall of Jerusalem, burned all its palaces with fire, and destroyed all its precious possessions. 20 And those who escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon, where they became servants to him and his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, 21 to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths. As long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.


22 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,
23 Thus says Cyrus king of Persia:

All the kingdoms of the earth the LORD God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah. Who is among you of all His people? May the LORD his God be with him, and let him go up!

--2 Chronicles 36:15-23

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

Prophetica,

There are MANY other ministries out there that do the same thing CRI does. To say they are the only ones and that they have a monopoly is incorrect.

It seems you don't agree that there is a need for apologetic ministries, that's your choice. But for many believers and seekers they indeed provide a much needed resource when we consider how many questions are out there from people seeking answers.

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ORIGINAL: cognitivemagic

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: mushhead

This sure sounds like Hank believes that the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled in the first century, which as has been established in our discussions, is "full preterism."

Mushhead,


Many, if not most, Partial Preterists believe that most of Revelation was fulfilled very early. I know that seems incredible but it is not heretical and it doesn't make one a Full Preterist. It gets extremely difficult to convince people who aren't familiar with the eschatological system.

I read the quotes you provided and they seem consistent with Partial Preterism.

A lot of the differences between Partial Preterism, Full Preterism and Dispensationalism are semantic. A lot of the terms are viewed differently and interpreted through a different linguistic interpretive mindset.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mushhead

GrahamCracker,
I just saw the moderators note, so don't answer my last post - answer this one instead. Tell me how it is possible that Hank's belief that all of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century is really a belief that only part of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century?