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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 3/28/2008 9:02:46 AM
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P31W
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quote:
I would go further and say that if Obama does give more and doesn't claim it because he wants it to be anonymous/confidential/private/personal then he would be very unlikely to publicly acknowledge it now. If he wanted to do that, he would have claimed it in the first place.
Another reason for a person who desires to be a politician "not" to report where they gave money to is because it could be very telling about "what they believe is important" and if the public knew what they believed was important enough to support was an organization that was hateful then it could harm their chances of winning. I know some politicians who don't give by check because of that very reason. They don't want the voters to know what they really believe.
I believe the reason it's not reported in the "earlier years" and "now" a larger percentage is reported is simply because he did not give it. Then he realized it would become public knowledge so he started to "step it up". He probably found out the average person in the US gives a little over two percent and believed that four to five percent would look like a generous gift to the public. I am with Jack on this one. Just wait and I bet this year he gives an even more.
Most politicians "want" the public to know they are generous givers.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/28/2008 9:11:48 AM >
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 3/28/2008 11:34:07 AM
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Random
Posts: 1146
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Zipperhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Another reason for a person who desires to be a politician "not" to report where they gave money to is because it could be very telling about "what they believe is important" and if the public knew what they believed was important enough to support was an organization that was hateful then it could harm their chances of winning. I know some politicians who don't give by check because of that very reason. They don't want the voters to know what they really believe.
I believe the reason it's not reported in the "earlier years" and "now" a larger percentage is reported is simply because he did not give it. Then he realized it would become public knowledge so he started to "step it up". He probably found out the average person in the US gives a little over two percent and believed that four to five percent would look like a generous gift to the public. I am with Jack on this one. Just wait and I bet this year he gives an even more.
Most politicians "want" the public to know they are generous givers.
I agree with you. I think it is unlikely that he gave more and did not claim it. I only point out that it's possible.
Also, at least some of the gifts that he claimed were to his (controversial) church. It seems unlikely to me that he claimed some of what he gave to that church, but not all of it. It seems more likely to me that he would either claim all or none (or maybe a token amount like $100).
But, your first thought is good, I think many, not just Obama, might want to make the amounts public, without making the recipient public.
_____________________________
Desmond Hume has come unstuck in time.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 3/28/2008 11:45:22 AM
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Closie
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My brother earns about $50,000 a year. Each Sunday, he puts in $100 cash in the offering. He chooses to do cash because he doesn't want any benefit from giving God what God is owed. Despite our efforts to convince him otherwise, he doesn't claim the donation on his taxes.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 3/28/2008 11:51:25 AM
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Random
Posts: 1146
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From: Zipperhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
You have less than you did to begin with if you give to charity and pay interest and take the deduction. You have even "less than that" if you don't take the deduction. (I know this is no new to you but to many many many people it's new)
It's the false ideas that is going around that people give just to "get back" something from Uncle Sam. Too many people have said< "They only give money to the Church so they won't have to pay taxes". They honestly believe it "benefits" the individual to give money to Charity and then claim it on their taxes. I believe it was Rhippie who was involved in a thread about this very topic not too long ago.
I understand where you are coming from, but I think you are missing my point.
The reduction in taxes you receive from paying mortgage interest or from donating to charity is less than the amount you gave, which is what you said. So, it makes no financial sense to give "just to get a deduction" as you give more than you get. This is like people who don't want a raise because it will "put them in the next tax bracket, and cost more than the raise" which is not possible.
However, given that you already paid the interest and/or made the donation, claiming it does "benefit" you. That is not bad/evil/whatever, but it is mathematically true.
You even said in your post, doing it and not taking the deduction gives you "even less than that" and that is my point.
If you don't want to call it "getting something back" that's fine, use a different term. But it's beyond obvious that, given that you have entered into a deductible transaction, claiming it is more financially beneficial than not claiming it.
To paraphrase Larry Burkett -- when someone says "I keep my mortgage just for the deduction" you should offer them $50 if they will just give you $100. This is a better deal than the deduction the IRS gives you. Then people (sometimes) realize their folly.
However, even in Larry's example, you do get something back -- $50. It's less than you paid, so you don't get everything back, but you do get something back. If you have to pay the $100, you are clearly better off taking the $50 back than refusing it. So, there is a "benefit" to claiming legitimate deductions given that you are going to enter into the transaction either way.
I agree that most people don't think this through. They think, as you said, that some people give just for the deduction, when that is clearly lunacy. But that doesn't mean there isn't some benefit to claiming their giving, because there is an obvious benefit. It's not a "net benefit" but it is a benefit compared to not claiming the deduction.
_____________________________
Desmond Hume has come unstuck in time.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 3/28/2008 12:19:40 PM
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P31W
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quote:
My brother earns about $50,000 a year. Each Sunday, he puts in $100 cash in the offering. He chooses to do cash because he doesn't want any benefit from giving God what God is owed. Despite our efforts to convince him otherwise, he doesn't claim the donation on his taxes.
Have you tried showing him the math and how much MORE he could give to God each week if he took the deduction? For most people that's when the lightbulb goes off.
Instead of giving Uncle Sam $500.00 in taxes he can give God that money and have it go instantly into the hands of missionaries.
One does not have to "keep" the tax savings. For many of us it's just a wise stewardship thing and allows us to give even more than before.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 3/28/2008 10:27:24 PM
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lightshineon
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Glad he did not give money to the wicked church.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 3/29/2008 3:08:24 AM
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jimbob1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
John and Cindy McCain gave away almost a million dollars between 2000-2006.
They have their own foundation they give to. Most of their giving goes to the foundation and then distributed to various causes they support.
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2006/860/817/2006-860817541-031154ca-F.pdf
Here is the foundations 2006 tax return. If you study the return you will see they gave over $80K that year to the foundation. On about page 13 or 14 you can see how funds were distributed. You can also see that the McCains recieved no money from the foundation in any form.
Let's not forget John McCain gave to all of us as a war hero vs. a person who never served & can just give a nice pre packaged speech.
Let's not forget McCain can't put his hands over his head due to his being unrelentlessly tortured.
Let's not forget how many other troops he impacted by refusing early release (more like a super-hero).
& let's not forget the Bible says true religion is the care of widows and orphans & McCain is an Adoptive parent-God Bless him! Obama doesn't even tithe nor known to assist widows or ophans other than w/meaningless words & proposals for more of a welfare state.
Talk is cheap & so are the Obamas! 
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 3/31/2008 8:51:44 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Let's not forget John McCain gave to all of us as a war hero vs. a person who never served & can just give a nice pre packaged speech.
Let's not forget McCain can't put his hands over his head due to his being unrelentlessly tortured.
Let's not forget how many other troops he impacted by refusing early release (more like a super-hero).
& let's not forget the Bible says true religion is the care of widows and orphans & McCain is an Adoptive parent-God Bless him! Obama doesn't even tithe nor known to assist widows or ophans other than w/meaningless words & proposals for more of a welfare state.
Talk is cheap & so are the Obamas!
Good post!!! I guess none of the other candidates can say they were willing to lay down their life for this country. Now that is giving.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 3/31/2008 7:50:24 PM
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tracydolls
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What if the Obama's simply don't report tithes? I know a whole lot of people that don't report tithes! Tithing to the Lord and giving to charity are two different things.
If you report, you gain something, whethers it's less paid or more back.
Now Tax Collectors are in the Bible, but where is it that they collected or deducted for tithing?
Umph......
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 3/31/2008 8:39:14 PM
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lightshineon
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I personally do not care if he tithed to that church or not, but did he help the poor?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 3/31/2008 9:26:46 PM
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jimbob1
Posts: 39
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
What if the Obama's simply don't report tithes? I know a whole lot of people that don't report tithes! Tithing to the Lord and giving to charity are two different things.
If you report, you gain something, whethers it's less paid or more back.
Now Tax Collectors are in the Bible, but where is it that they collected or deducted for tithing?
Umph......
This is assuming into evidence something that simply does not have any fact....that would mean weekly he would be walking around w/ $1000s in cash to drop in the collection plate, week after week after week; it's more simply that he & michelle believe in the welfare state not using their money to help anyone, a bad example for their daughters. Did you know his grandmother still lives in a hut??????????????????Yep he's helping her I'm sure too, maybe some bamboo thatch contributed to her each year to patch her roof from a monsoon or what have you, poor woman!
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
John and Cindy McCain gave away almost a million dollars between 2000-2006.
They have their own foundation they give to. Most of their giving goes to the foundation and then distributed to various causes they support.
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2006/860/817/2006-860817541-031154ca-F.pdf
Here is the foundations 2006 tax return. If you study the return you will see they gave over $80K that year to the foundation. On about page 13 or 14 you can see how funds were distributed. You can also see that the McCains recieved no money from the foundation in any form.
Let's not forget John McCain gave to all of us as a war hero vs. a person who never served & can just give a nice pre packaged speech.
Let's not forget McCain can't put his hands over his head due to his being unrelentlessly tortured.
Let's not forget how many other troops he impacted by refusing early release (more like a super-hero).
& let's not forget the Bible says true religion is the care of widows and orphans & McCain is an Adoptive parent-God Bless him! Obama doesn't even tithe nor known to assist widows or ophans other than w/meaningless words & proposals for more of a welfare state.
Talk is cheap & so are the Obamas!
Oh yeah let's not forget this bravest of war heroes, he further is saving you & I money by refusing 24/7 Secret Service protection, the only past & current candidate this year to do so. Freeing them up to fight crime, terrorism and be about our protection.A real family for the White House! 
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/1/2008 4:52:32 AM
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tracydolls
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Maybe his grandmother is comfortable in her hut. I'm sure she can ask for whatever.
In different parts of the world people live in different types of housing.
And you can pay tithes by check, I often do.
Sheesh
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/1/2008 10:43:35 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1918
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quote:
What if the Obama's simply don't report tithes?
Then for "me" he is not very wise with money and certainly does not need to be handling OPM. He does not know how to make the "best" use of what he has been given.
quote:
If you report, you gain something, whethers it's less paid or more back.
What you gain is the ability to handle MORE of God's money and possibly use it to give to people who are in real need or to help fund a missionary on a foreign field tell others about Jesus Christ.
This is a stewardship issue. No man is going to get my vote who does not understand basic 101 stewardship issues.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/1/2008 3:42:06 PM
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tracydolls
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From: Mpls, MN
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Then for "me" he is not very wise with money and certainly does not need to be handling OPM. He does not know how to make the "best" use of what he has been given.
So if he DOESNT report his tithes on his tax forms, he is not wise with his money? By reporting his tithes, he is making the "best" use of them?
My point is this... how do we know EXACTLY where BO sends/spends his money. How can you tell?
Do most people know that in a single year TBN made about 686 million and gave only 5 million to Charity.
How many people still follow TBN?
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 4/1/2008 3:48:42 PM >
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/1/2008 4:37:56 PM
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P31W
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quote:
So if he DOESNT report his tithes on his tax forms, he is not wise with his money? By reporting his tithes, he is making the "best" use of them?
Yes
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/1/2008 6:04:02 PM
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ljmac
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Let's be realistic. The Obama's didn't purposely omit lots of charitable contributions from the tax return, but included just a tiny bit of them. They didn't live by the principle of not taking charitable giving deductions or they wouldn't have taken any at all. They're stingy, or at least they were.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/7/2008 4:04:38 PM
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adelphi_sky
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Christians can be so judgmental sometimes. :-) Remember that God spoke good of the person who prayed quietly in private and negatively about the one who prayed loudly in the streets to be heard. Don't you think the same holds true for those that would rather give in secret and not publicize how much they give? I myself have given monies to friends, relatives, and charities and did not deduct it from my taxes. There are people in need to give to that aren't beneficiaries of non-profit organizations. Also, there is a limit to how much you can deduct. When you reach a certain amount of giving, there's no point in recording the full amount on your taxes because you'll only get a set limit deducted from your taxes. I think the limit is different per income. I think mine was $4,000. So, even if I gave $10,000, it wouldn't matter, the IRS is only going to deduct $4,000. Therefore, $6,000 of that $10,000 doesn't get reported. So, I just record $4,000.
Now I'm not saying they gave more than what they reported, but we are assuming big time based on a system that doesn't report EVERYTHING a person does with their money.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/7/2008 4:05:40 PM
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adelphi_sky
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PS. At least they gave SOMETHING. Would we rather they not give at all? SOMEONE benefited from their charity.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/7/2008 5:44:47 PM
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ljmac
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quote:
ORIGINAL: adelphi_sky
Christians can be so judgmental sometimes. :-) Remember that God spoke good of the person who prayed quietly in private and negatively about the one who prayed loudly in the streets to be heard. Don't you think the same holds true for those that would rather give in secret and not publicize how much they give? I myself have given monies to friends, relatives, and charities and did not deduct it from my taxes. There are people in need to give to that aren't beneficiaries of non-profit organizations. Also, there is a limit to how much you can deduct. When you reach a certain amount of giving, there's no point in recording the full amount on your taxes because you'll only get a set limit deducted from your taxes. I think the limit is different per income. I think mine was $4,000. So, even if I gave $10,000, it wouldn't matter, the IRS is only going to deduct $4,000. Therefore, $6,000 of that $10,000 doesn't get reported. So, I just record $4,000.
Now I'm not saying they gave more than what they reported, but we are assuming big time based on a system that doesn't report EVERYTHING a person does with their money.
Theory, speculation and wishful thinking. If you've got some evidence that the Obama's really did give more charity then please share it.
Believe me, even if there was some kind of limit to charitable deductions, the Obamas aren't even close. The only limit they faced was themselves.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/7/2008 8:51:57 PM
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jimbob1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: adelphi_sky
Christians can be so judgmental sometimes. :-) Remember that God spoke good of the person who prayed quietly in private and negatively about the one who prayed loudly in the streets to be heard. Don't you think the same holds true for those that would rather give in secret and not publicize how much they give? I myself have given monies to friends, relatives, and charities and did not deduct it from my taxes. There are people in need to give to that aren't beneficiaries of non-profit organizations. Also, there is a limit to how much you can deduct. When you reach a certain amount of giving, there's no point in recording the full amount on your taxes because you'll only get a set limit deducted from your taxes. I think the limit is different per income. I think mine was $4,000. So, even if I gave $10,000, it wouldn't matter, the IRS is only going to deduct $4,000. Therefore, $6,000 of that $10,000 doesn't get reported. So, I just record $4,000.
Now I'm not saying they gave more than what they reported, but we are assuming big time based on a system that doesn't report EVERYTHING a person does with their money.
Theory, speculation and wishful thinking. If you've got some evidence that the Obama's really did give more charity then please share it.
Believe me, even if there was some kind of limit to charitable deductions, the Obamas aren't even close. The only limit they faced was themselves.
Cheap and extremely poor example to their daughters..raising them in racism, hatred, selfishness and sailor like cursing from the pulpit.
There is NOT `1 IOTA of proof that this stingy, incompetent and non-caring man/family are concerned about the poorother than through a large welfare crippling state.
Obama maniacs might as well just claim that the mllions and billions giving anonymously nation-wide are really super secret givewayas the super lovers of America Michelle, their crazy pastor & barack!
Let the welfare flag fly high under the socialist-dems!
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/7/2008 9:18:43 PM
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jkdjr25
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Just a minor point of order if I may. Doesn't the Bible, quite specificly mind you, say that a person shouldn't talk about how much they give? If it does, as I believe is the case, isn't it mightily hypocritcal to assume that Barak would boldly and proudly proclaim how generous he is?
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/8/2008 9:02:08 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1918
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
RIGINAL: adelphi_sky
Christians can be so judgmental sometimes. :-)
It is judgemental or is it using godly discernment and wisdom?
Proverbs 14:15a
Only simpletons believe everything they are told!
(Obama tells us that he is a very generous person. For me to investigate what he says to see if there is any evidence that what he says is true is in my opinion the only wise thing to do)
quote:
Remember that God spoke good of the person who prayed quietly in private and negatively about the one who prayed loudly in the streets to be heard. Don't you think the same holds true for those that would rather give in secret and not publicize how much they give?
Reporting it on your income tax return is not going "public" with your giving. To be honest with you it's only going to be your account who knows "all your deductable" giving. Unless of course you are audited and in that case it's probably only going to be one eyeball that investigtes the return for truthfulness. I have found that it has been a 'witness' for me to report my giving. Both to those who audit me (been through many and to may CPA's who prepare my returns.)
As far as Obama is concerned his reported percentage of "giving" rose when his information was "for sure" going to be made public. If he wanted to give without others knowing "now" would be the time for him "not" to report it not back when he believed it would be held in strict confidence.
quote:
I myself have given monies to friends, relatives, and charities and did not deduct it from my taxes. There are people in need to give to that aren't beneficiaries of non-profit organizations.
Yes I take it "forgranted" that giving people do this pretty often.
quote:
Also, there is a limit to how much you can deduct. When you reach a certain amount of giving, there's no point in recording the full amount on your taxes because you'll only get a set limit deducted from your taxes. I think the limit is different per income. I think mine was $4,000. So, even if I gave $10,000, it wouldn't matter, the IRS is only going to deduct $4,000. Therefore, $6,000 of that $10,000 doesn't get reported. So, I just record $4,000.
You can learn more at the IRS.gov site. I think publication 526? When the contributions go over 50% of your AGI in one year you begin to lose them. So Obama could have reported LOTS more than he did. Like add a zero's behind what he reported.
quote:
Now I'm not saying they gave more than what they reported, but we are assuming big time based on a system that doesn't report EVERYTHING a person does with their money.
I think it's very reasonable for me to expect a person who claims to be a very generous person to make the most of their money and report their contributions. Not to do so in my opinion is to be a bad steward and not worthy to handle other people's money.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/8/2008 9:44:07 AM >
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/8/2008 9:07:52 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1918
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
Just a minor point of order if I may. Doesn't the Bible, quite specificly mind you, say that a person shouldn't talk about how much they give? If it does, as I believe is the case, isn't it mightily hypocritcal to assume that Barak would boldly and proudly proclaim how generous he is?
It says if your giving is giving so that you can be praised my man then that is all the reward you are going to get for your giving. Jesus warns us to give in private so we won't be "tempted" to be giving so that men will praise us.
Reporting your giving on your income tax return is not exactly "seeking the praise of men". It's wise stewardship. Making the most of what God has entrusted you to handle.
Matthew 6
2 "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you
In Jesus day the people who were seeking the honor of others would literally hire folks to "blow trumpets" on the street corner and make a big to do about what they were doing so that everyone in the town would "know" what they were doing and how much they were giving.
The verse is about our "attitude". The "reason" we do something.
Some folks take that to some crazy extreme. But they fail to take into consideration this command:
Matthew 5:13-16
13 "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men. 14 "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven
Again it's about "attitude" the reason we do something.
Because Christians are to be known as generous givers and doers of good deeds it only makes sense that "someone" would have to know about what we do.
Otherwise people will claim we are hypocrits.
The verses deal with our "hearts" more than "how" we do our good deeds and giving.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/8/2008 9:35:10 AM >
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