RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money!

RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (Full Version)

All Forums >> [General] >> Current Events >> Election 2008

Message

Random -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 10:17:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W This is a bad stewardship issue or a hypocrite issue in my eyes. Either way. Not the best choice for a leader. Or a conviction issue. The BEST choice for a leader.

Random -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 10:22:49 AM)
P31, You also have to realize that he and his wife are both lawyers, and they each had, I believe, six figure student loan debt. 250K is a lot of income, but if you are servicing 200K+ in student loan debt, things will still be tight. They made an investment for their future, and even when the money starts coming in, you have to pay off that "investment". More importantly, since you seem intent on skipping the points that disagree with you, that was the FIRST year they had such a high income. I believe a good bit of it was book royalties. They did not make nearly that much the year before. It is not uncommon for someone who was struggling for a long time to take a while to get used to having enough money to be able to give more. I remember a quote from him when he was asked what he did with his book royalties, and he replied "paid off my student loans". So, 2002 looks like a lot of income, but if that was the first year of that, and he had to get "caught up" it's not surprising it took him some time to raise his standard of giving.

Random -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 10:28:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W Random you said (I have not heard this before now) That he said publicly "that he started giving a larger percentage b/c he was more able to with his higher income. Prior to that he was struggling financially, with two young kids and not much income" I should not have put "not much income" in quotes. Those are my words, not his. I was paraphrasing. But in any event, if you have six figure student loan debt and have been struggling to keep up, the first year you "hit it big" will probably be a year of getting out of debt, getting caught up, etc. It would be nice if there was an immediate realization that one could give more, but it's also not surprising that it would take a while for that to sink in too. Especially when you are carrying six figures of student loan debt. I think his tax returns make it clear that his income has increased a lot in the last 5-10 years, so it's not at all unreasonable that he would have gone from a period of struggling to a period of abundance in that time.

lightshineon -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 10:37:39 AM)
I think maybe the point is, how concerned is he for the poor? He speaks it, and I guess we need to put our money where our mouth is, as far as on the basis, of large or small donations given to organizations vs. individuals. The tithe thing though, really I am gla he did not give to that church.

P31W -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 10:40:22 AM)
quote: More importantly, since you seem intent on skipping the points that disagree with you, that was the FIRST year they had such a high income. This is not true. This again is from page one. We ONLY have his returns back to 2000. The figure I posted was from 2002. However he and his wife were already making over 240K back in 2000. And in 2001 they were making over 270K. (this is not an "overnight" thing) http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/03/obama-releases.html I don't believe the book money came into play until they hit the 1.6M in income. Don't know for sure. We can check his returns to find the answer probably. quote: I should not have put "not much income" in quotes. Those are my words, not his. I was paraphrasing. Do you have a link so that i can see his exact words? I would like to know. In 2002 they paid an household employee over $23K in income. I simply don't believe they were struggling that much. They also paid over $11K in mortage interest. http://www.kansascity.com/445/story/566697.html This is all that I can find saying they even "had" a student loan. How much the loan was for or at what interest rate is not discussed. You also know what I know. Most people make their student loan one of their last debts they pay off. "Obama told the crowd that when she and her husband left law school, the monthly payments on their school loan debt was more than their monthly mortgage payment. She said they only got out of that debt when Barack Obama wrote his two books, "The Audacity of Hope" and "Dreams from My Father." Both Obamas graduated from Harvard Law School. Most of the Obamas' income in 2006, when they had $991,296 in annual income, came from royalties on the books. That was down from the nearly $1.7 million they took in 2005, a total also boosted by a book deal. The Obamas have not released their 2007 tax returns, but have pledged to do so later this month."

jkdjr25 -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 10:53:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W quote: More importantly, since you seem intent on skipping the points that disagree with you, that was the FIRST year they had such a high income. This is not true. This again is from page one. We ONLY have his returns back to 2000. The figure I posted was from 2002. However he and his wife were already making over 240K back in 2000. And in 2001 they were making over 270K http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/03/obama-releases.html I don't believe the book money came into play until they hit the 1.6M in income. Don't know for sure. We can check his returns to find the answer probably. quote: I should not have put "not much income" in quotes. Those are my words, not his. I was paraphrasing. Do you have a link so that i can see his exact words? I would like to know. And again you ignore that which doesn't suit your point. Random brought up the fact that both were paying off six figure student loans from law school. One can also assume that there was some degree of student loan from normal college are well which likely figured at least five figures. You demand "iron clad proof" but that's not what you really want. In the world of politics there's no such thing as iron clad proof because anything that anyone says can be twisted and manipulated to mean something else entirely. Reasonable alternatives have been offered up only to be rebuffed or having those things called excuses.

P31W -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 10:58:13 AM)
quote: Random brought up the fact that both were paying off six figure student loans from law school Provide "evidence" - otherwise we can't call this a "fact". Many people are paying off six figure loans without six figure incomes.

P31W -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 11:12:19 AM)
Dreams from My Father - 1995 The Audacity of Hope - 2006.

P31W -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 11:27:06 AM)
quote: Or a conviction issue. The BEST choice for a leader. ROFL, you know that won't fly with me. He has certainly NEVER said that he won't report all his charitable contributions because of some conviction.

jkdjr25 -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 11:28:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W quote: Random brought up the fact that both were paying off six figure student loans from law school Provide "evidence" - otherwise we can't call this a "fact". Many people are paying off six figure loans without six figure incomes. Provide evidence that it isn't the case. As the accuser the burden of proof is on you. What you've said so far is circumstancial at best.

P31W -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 11:29:47 AM)
If someone calls something a "fact". That is the one who must provide the evidence. Otherwise that person cannot call it a fact. I won't play word games with you. Either give us evidence of leave the thread. I am on a fact finding mission here. Besides Random didn't call it a FACT - you did.

Random -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 11:33:01 AM)
Since I am not an Obamamaniac, or whatever the word is, I don't have all the details memorized. I am just relating things that I have read over the last year or so. If this thread was about McCain, I would have similar anecdotes that I have heard to share. If this thread was about Hillary, I might have some recollections as well, but since I've never considered voting for her, I am less likely to have read articles about her, and more to the point, less likely to remember them. I may have gotten some of the years mixed up. I remember the student loan thing because my wife mentioned it to me. She thought it was refreshing that he took this windfall and used it to pay off student loans. I am pretty sure it was the first book, not the second, but I'm not 100% certain of that. I just remember my wife saying something about how they had decent incomes, but a lot of student loan debt, and this money finally allowed them to pay it off. I will see what I can find as far as details, but that's what I recall.

jkdjr25 -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 11:35:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W If someone calls something a "fact". That is the one who must provide the evidence. Otherwise that person cannot call it a fact. I won't play word games with you. Either give us evidence of leave the thread. I am on a fact finding mission here. I haven't called anything a fact. You have. As the accuser, whether in a court of law OR a debate/discussion the burden of proof is on you. I'm just saying that there are alternative interpretations for the evidence you've provided so far. You say is tax return say one thing, I say that it is within the realm of possibility that they don't mean what you say they do. I'm not playing word games at all, I'm just asking of you what you incorrectly demand from me.

Random -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 11:36:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W quote: Or a conviction issue. The BEST choice for a leader. ROFL, you know that won't fly with me. He has certainly NEVER said that he won't report all his charitable contributions because of some conviction. 1. If the Holy Spirit convicted him to give anonymously, then I think telling you that would kind of defeat the purpose. 2. I am not saying that is the case. I have no idea if he (or McCain or Clinton for that matter) reported everything they gave, to the penny. All I am saying is that it is possible he (and/or the other two) gave more than the claimed, for a variety of reasons. Basically, I am saying that a tax return is proof that someone gave at least that much, but it is not proof that he gave at most that much.

P31W -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 11:38:16 AM)
Thanks Random jkdjr25 quote: I haven't called anything a fact. quote: Random brought up the fact that both were paying off six figure student loans from law school Random said "I believe". You said he mentioned a "fact". Your words are false. I will now ignore your post because they are no value to me in this thread.

P31W -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 11:43:44 AM)
quote: 1. If the Holy Spirit convicted him to give anonymously, then I think telling you that would kind of defeat the purpose. 2. I am not saying that is the case. I have no idea if he (or McCain or Clinton for that matter) reported everything they gave, to the penny. All I am saying is that it is possible he (and/or the other two) gave more than the claimed, for a variety of reasons. Basically, I am saying that a tax return is proof that someone gave at least that much, but it is not proof that he gave at most that much. I know you are not trying to "support" him rather give an explination for possible reasons he may not have reported "all" that he gave. I think most of us don't report "all" that we give because it's not all reportable or because we don't have "proof" and simply don't want to take a chance at being audited because we gave the Salvation Army bell ringers $20 in cash. I also know you don't want to bring his religion into this. However you are the one how mentioned the Holy Spirit. Again I believe the Holy Spirit would have convicted him to leave a BLT church. Not have his children baptised in it. I think if a person can't hear the HS warning them that the church they are in is teaching a false Jesus then they probably won't hear the HS telling them to do certain things with their money inorder to glorify God. [;)]

jkdjr25 -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 11:50:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W Thanks Random jkdjr25 quote: I haven't called anything a fact. quote: Random brought up the fact that both were paying off six figure student loans from law school Random said "I believe". You said he mentioned a "fact". Your words are false. I will now ignore your post because they are no value to me in this thread. Wow. I'll grant that maybe I shouldn't have called it a fact but most people would have the common sense to realize what it was that I meant. To say that I have nothing to contribute only shows that you have no interest in actually discussing the matter with any degree of decorum or civility. I maintain that the burden of proof is still on you to prove that he is not generous. Presumption of innocense and all that you know? Now, aside from the circumstantial evidence of his tax return, what "iron clad proof", to use your words, do YOU have to show that he didn't give more than the tax returns show?

Random -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 11:52:30 AM)
A few links with some details, but probably not enough of them: LA Times article Obama told the gathering that he no longer had credit card debt, but that was not always the case. "Five years ago, before I had spoken at the convention, before my book sales took off, etc., we were in same situation," he said. "My wife and I borrowed to go to college and law school because we don't come from wealthy families. When I got out of law school and we got married, our combined student loan debt was higher than our mortgage," Obama said. "And so it took us 10 years to pay that off, which meant that we couldn't save." [I would add that also made it hard to give generously at that time] Google Article It wasn't until Barack Obama wrote a pair of best-selling books that he and his wife escaped their student loan debt, an experience Michelle Obama said Tuesday helps the couple understand everyday challenges better than policymakers in Washington. [I can't find much more than that, mainly b/c Michelle Obama discussed this in a speech yesterday, so all the google hits go to articles about that. The thing I am recalling is much older, but I don't have time to wade through hundreds of pages of google hits to find it.]

P31W -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 11:59:07 AM)
Obama graduated in 1991. He said it took them 10 years to pay off the student loan. That would be 2001.

jkdjr25 -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 12:05:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W Obama graduated in 1991. He said it took them 10 years to pay off the student loan. That would be 2001. Of course that the article says that they were also paying off credit card debt is meaningless.

ljmac -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 12:05:20 PM)
There is ample proof that he took charitable deductions. There is no proof that there was more to be taken. Only imagination, speculation and wishful thinking.

P31W -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 12:07:06 PM)
His wife graduated in 1988. They married in 1992

jkdjr25 -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 12:12:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ljmac There is ample proof that he took charitable deductions. There is no proof that there was more to be taken. Only imagination, speculation and wishful thinking. That only those deductions he took are the only examples of giving are also speculation based on circumstantial evidence. Thus it is also imagination to think that it is the only possible explanation. I'm just saying that there's more than one way to look at what is available. I don't which one is true, just that there are plausible explanations on both sides. Again if they were paying off student loands and credit card debt they would have a distinct lack of income that would make giving very difficult.

ljmac -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 12:17:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Random A few links with some details, but probably not enough of them: LA Times article Obama told the gathering that he no longer had credit card debt, but that was not always the case. "Five years ago, before I had spoken at the convention, before my book sales took off, etc., we were in same situation," he said. "My wife and I borrowed to go to college and law school because we don't come from wealthy families. When I got out of law school and we got married, our combined student loan debt was higher than our mortgage," Obama said. "And so it took us 10 years to pay that off, which meant that we couldn't save." [I would add that also made it hard to give generously at that time] Google Article It wasn't until Barack Obama wrote a pair of best-selling books that he and his wife escaped their student loan debt, an experience Michelle Obama said Tuesday helps the couple understand everyday challenges better than policymakers in Washington. [I can't find much more than that, mainly b/c Michelle Obama discussed this in a speech yesterday, so all the google hits go to articles about that. The thing I am recalling is much older, but I don't have time to wade through hundreds of pages of google hits to find it.] Almost every adult is in debt. It's called life and it's no excuse. "I'm too restricted by my Ivy League law school loan," is not the kind of argument that sells in the real world. Suppose we all waited until we were debt free millionaires running for President before we gave to charity? True charity doesn't come from what's left over.

jkdjr25 -> RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! (4/9/2008 12:28:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ljmac quote: ORIGINAL: Random A few links with some details, but probably not enough of them: LA Times article Obama told the gathering that he no longer had credit card debt, but that was not always the case. "Five years ago, before I had spoken at the convention, before my book sales took off, etc., we were in same situation," he said. "My wife and I borrowed to go to college and law school because we don't come from wealthy families. When I got out of law school and we got married, our combined student loan debt was higher than our mortgage," Obama said. "And so it took us 10 years to pay that off, which meant that we couldn't save." [I would add that also made it hard to give generously at that time] Google Article It wasn't until Barack Obama wrote a pair of best-selling books that he and his wife escaped their student loan debt, an experience Michelle Obama said Tuesday helps the couple understand everyday challenges better than policymakers in Washington. [I can't find much more than that, mainly b/c Michelle Obama discussed this in a speech yesterday, so all the google hits go to articles about that. The thing I am recalling is much older, but I don't have time to wade through hundreds of pages of google hits to find it.] Almost every adult is in debt. It's called life and it's no excuse. "I'm too restricted by my Ivy League law school loan," is not the kind of argument that sells in the real world. Suppose we all waited until we were debt free millionaires running for President before we gave to charity? True charity doesn't come from what's left over. Just so we're clear. We're supposed to take care of our own, but give what we don't have to give and thus go deeper into debt which we're supposed to pay off but still keep giving because we have to. Just trying to make sure that's what you're stance is.

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI