RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/2/2008 10:03:48 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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Isn't that what I said GreatDivide...?
Geez!
I'm ALWAYS too wordy!
It's what I meant...lol
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/3/2008 4:42:35 PM
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perfectWeakness129
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You must be baptized by imersion in a natual body of water or else... ;)
jk
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/3/2008 5:51:18 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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lol
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/3/2008 10:43:19 PM
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deborlie
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Someone asked for verses, so I went to my Bible. This will seem one sided to those who have taken an another view.
So, I hope you will oblige me with your verses, as well.
Peter was called by God to go to Caesarea to meet and talk with a man named Cornelius, a Centuriun, a Gentile....which if you remember a Jew was not to 'keep company' with any man common or unclean. As requested, Peter he began his talk:
Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
45. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT had been poured out on the Gentiles, also.
46. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
47. "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48. And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
The Holy Spirit indwelt these men before they were baptized. And for this I am greatful....why? Because, there are many circumstances that arise that one recieves the Holy Spirit ........but 'water' is not available for baptisim. Say, times during war. I am sure you can think of a few other time. I ran with the rescue squad of our town. We were told to baptize infants born, but not likely to live, by the parents suggestion. I myself was indwelt before my baptizm. I don't have the gift of tongues, but I don't believe I am suppose to have it.
I've known cases where people were baptized, but didn't have the Holy Spirit..........as far as I am able to determine it. (by fruits) The parable of the sower seems to bear this out.
If you believe in the work of the Cross......Much was changed by that Holy Sacrafice. The Cross accually divide the OT and the NT. This will probably cause some questions, but if you think about it, you'll find it to be true. I have a question? Where is the first baptizm mentioned in the Bible? Was that begun with John the Baptist?
Paul speaking:
1 Cor 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15. lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.
16. Yes, I also baptized the househhold of Sephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.
17. For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
This is not for the sake of argument....but, I guess, to help explain why I believe the way I do and help enlighten others.
There is only one thing that we need to have for our saving grace (Salvation) and that is our sincere belief, with all of our heart, mind and soul, in the Gospel as given by Paul. 1 Cor 15. In this, we should all be able to agree. Any thing more is for our edification and further understanding.
Thanks for your time.
Blessings,
BJ
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/4/2008 8:09:42 AM
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greatdivide46
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There are scads if verses that have to do with the meaning and purpose of Christian baptism. The first is found in Matthew 28:19-20 where Jesus is giving His disciples what we call the great commission. "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." I think it is significant that Jesus mentions baptism at all in such a fundamental commission if, in fact, baptism has nothing to do with salvation. And not only does Jesus mention baptism, but he mentions it separately from teaching all the He commanded His disciples. Apparently there is something unique about baptism that makes it something other than a simple command the Jesus gave His disciples.
This is just one verse. There are many more. Too many for me to ignore or dismiss simply because there are verses that mention salvation without mentioning baptism. I don't know how valid it is to argue against baptism for salvation based on absence of baptism from some verses having to do with salvation. It would would be something else again if there were some verses that say emphatically that we are not saved when we are baptized, that baptism has nothing to do with salvation, but there are no such verses. In fact there are verses that say emphatically just the opposite.
< Message edited by greatdivide46 -- 4/4/2008 5:45:27 PM >
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/4/2008 11:30:37 AM
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FolkSingerBlues
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GreatDivide and I are in agreement on this issue of baptism.
That being said I think there are false teachers on both sides of this argument.
I seek other people that I respect out on issues such as this for insight about how and WHY they believe as they do. (I think God likes it when we do that!). I used to "debate" (translate argue) this issue but now I have been released from such pettiness. Such arguments are of little if any value to God. The Bible can't be based upon my own interpretation, if that's what I'm seeking it's useless. The Bible has to be seen through the only true authority that can teach us, that of course being the Word himself.
It is a false teaching to tell people that baptism saves them. It is also a false teaching to tell people that the sinners prayer saves them.
I was saved through grace alone, through faith alone by Jesus Christ who led me to the waters of baptism before I even fully grasped what it all meant. (I was like 9 or something). No doubt the Holy Spirit was working on my heart prior to my baptism in water.
As I have prayed, grown and matured in this relationship I have learned that I can't break the Scriptures apart because they are in unity. I have learned that God has left me instructions for our lives as beings created to worship and walk with Him. Obedience is "I'm supposed to do this because...". Relationship is "I'd do anything for this person". In my best relationships when someone says "I need you over here tomorrow at noon..." they don't have to say anything else because I've learned that this person needs me and I'm going to be there no matter what the reason. It's not blindness, it's a matter of trust.
In the same way I have learned to trust the Scriptures in their fullness. Arguments about when God does His work are pretty presumptuous arguments. I myself have no right to tell anyone when God saves them. I however do have a responsibility to teach what Jesus himself and his close followers had to say about accepting and following Him. That includes repentance, baptism and walking with God.
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/4/2008 10:02:04 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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With my above post I wanted to add this.
Although I don't know the specific time God considers me "saved" I do know what he says through Peter recorded by Luke on the matter. (Acts 2:38 of course). Now we can discuss exactly when we think whatever happens all we want but beyond the Word we are offering our speculation only.
When speculative doctrine is taught as fact then one has found a false teacher.
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/5/2008 10:39:27 AM
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benelchi
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Although I have never been a member of a restoration church nor have I ever been convinced at any time that this doctrine is valid, I did attend a bible college founded by members of the restoration movement. While almost all of the faculty and a large portion of the students were from the restoration movement, the majority of the students were not. During my years at the college, I never ran into anyone from the restoration movement who ever insinuated any of the non restoration movement believers were heretics. Most of the local restoration churches met and worked well with the larger body of churches in our community, and as one poster pointed out, many of the members of the restoration churches didn't even understand this doctrinal distinction because it was considered a minor doctrinal issue in those churches. Outside of the bible college, I have run into some members of restoration churches who truly hold this doctrine as an absolutely essential belief; these churches teach that not only is baptism required for salvation, but that baptism within their church is required for salvation i.e. they believe that baptism by immersion in a Baptist church would not result in salvation. While I believe that many restoration churches are for the most part doctrinally sound, those churches in the restoration movement who believe that this doctrine itself is a required belief and accept only baptism within their church I must reject as heretical. While I don't believe that a simple disagreement on this issue is in itself heresy, I do believe that when this doctrine becomes a foundational belief on which other doctrines are constructed it can quickly lead to a heretical belief system.
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/7/2008 11:44:51 AM
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perfectWeakness129
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As one who believes that Baptism in only the appropriate outworking of salvation and not a prerequisite, it is easy for me to agree with the above post, this is not an essential docterine. However, if I was on the other side and belived that Baptism was necissary for salvation, that would be a very different story. Once someone's salvation is at stake, you better have it right. If I was on that side I would have dificulty sharing in fellowship with someone who believed otherwise. Just as if someone did not believe in the diety of Christ.
QUESTION: For those of you who believe that baptism is necissary, do you find it hard to fellowship with those who don't, especially if they have not yet been baptized, but still worship God and the Lamb?
_____________________________
"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it." -Mark 8:34b-35
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/7/2008 11:45:19 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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I can only speak for myself on your question.
I don't find it hard to have fellowship with those who don't "see it my way". Those I fellowship around are ultimately responsible for their salvation and the doctrine they adopt. I don't have a problem with people who feel that baptism isn't the point that God begins his work (as explained in a post by GreatDivide, I may have worded it all wrong.) we are all welcome to our speculation as to the defined "when" God saves us. We are not however entitled to teach one favored doctrine over another.
That said I am convicted to teach salvation as I see it explained in scripture. That includes baptism as the "mode of acceptance". That includes explaining that we have the choice to choose to live God's way or the world's way (our way). That includes explaining that repentance is a life long decision. That includes explaining that faith is not a belief but a way of life that God will teach us through the leading of his Holy Spirit.
As far as fellowship goes, there are many baptized believers that don't show what I consider "spiritual maturity" but I must accept them where they are and trust God to work in their lives.
So fellowship isn't a problem.
I teach the truth as I see it in Scripture. It is not speculative to say that baptism is a mode of acceptance or that the early church practiced baptism when believers confessed. etc.
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/8/2008 9:30:32 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: perfectWeakness129
For those of you who believe that baptism is necissary, do you find it hard to fellowship with those who don't, especially if they have not yet been baptized, but still worship God and the Lamb? I don't find it hard to fellowship with those who see baptism differently that I do. As long as they're baptized (and I assume they all are), then I believe God does His work in baptism whether they believe it or not.
Frankly, though, I don't know if some of the people I fellowship with are baptized or not. It's not really a question that I ask every Christian I meet.
As for those who are not baptized, should I ever meet someone like that, I would try to share with them the importance of baptism and what Scripture says about it, but if they still refuse, that's between them and God. However, I would not stop my fellowship with them based on that.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/19/2008 7:12:47 AM
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Linkoln
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quote:
ORIGINAL: perfectWeakness129
As one who believes that Baptism in only the appropriate outworking of salvation and not a prerequisite, it is easy for me to agree with the above post, this is not an essential docterine. However, if I was on the other side and belived that Baptism was necissary for salvation, that would be a very different story. Once someone's salvation is at stake, you better have it right. If I was on that side I would have dificulty sharing in fellowship with someone who believed otherwise. Just as if someone did not believe in the diety of Christ.
QUESTION: For those of you who believe that baptism is necissary, do you find it hard to fellowship with those who don't, especially if they have not yet been baptized, but still worship God and the Lamb?
From what I have experienced I would say that those in the RM are torn over this issue. Some see us Evangelicals as brothers and sisters and some of them call Evangelicals heretics. It probably depends on the church and on how they have been raised up in the church concerning this issue.
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/22/2008 10:02:44 AM
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Hobbs
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As a Pastor of an Independent Christian Church who is on his way into a more Evangelical tradition I can tell you that the issue of baptism is becoming a division in this tradition. I can also tell you that many in the Independent Christian Church look at those who teach salvation by grace through faith as heretical or false teachers. I have been labeled by many in my own tradition as such because of my stance. I think that the best way to approach anyone is in love and grace with this issue.
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/22/2008 12:00:28 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
Where is the first baptizm mentioned in the Bible? Was that begun with John the Baptist?
Actually the first is when in Exodus 40: 12 where we read that Moses was to wash Aaron and his sons so that they could do there ministry. The great baptism of all time was Noah's flood.
I have no problem with water baptism. But I do have a problem with it as be a requirement for salvation. I believe when Jesus gave those words Go you into the whole world and baptising them. Was not nessacary talking about water. Yet was talking about, in being total immerised into God's way of life.
Faith is salvation and in it is only required. If it would be anything else then you are opening it up to self made salvation type of idea. Which in matter of a few words the Messiah going on the cross was a waste of time.
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/23/2008 9:16:56 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
I believe when Jesus gave those words Go you into the whole world and baptising them. Was not nessacary talking about water. Yet was talking about, in being total immerised into God's way of life. When Jesus gave those words, "Go you into the whole world baptizing them" He was commanding His disciples to do something that they could do. Jesus' disciples, no matter how Godly they were, could not totally immerse anyone into God's way of life. They could only baptize people in water and pray that they would totally immerse themselves in God's way of life.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 4/28/2008 7:58:58 AM
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Hobbs
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
I believe when Jesus gave those words Go you into the whole world and baptising them. Was not nessacary talking about water. Yet was talking about, in being total immerised into God's way of life. When Jesus gave those words, "Go you into the whole world baptizing them" He was commanding His disciples to do something that they could do. Jesus' disciples, no matter how Godly they were, could not totally immerse anyone into God's way of life. They could only baptize people in water and pray that they would totally immerse themselves in God's way of life.
Please never forget that it has always been God and will always be God who gives us the desire to know Him and grown in Him.
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 5/1/2008 8:00:34 AM
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Hobbs
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I have been thinking a lot about this thread. As one who is in the process of leaving the RM (Independent Christian Church) I feel that teaching that baptism is the moment of salvation and the time that one receives the Holy Spirit is completely wrong and does not square up with scripture. If that sounds a bit harsh you need to realize that on several sites that I have been on that are RM based those within the tradition that I am currently in will call "saved by grace through faith" apart from baptism a false teaching. They will even refer to those of us who teach and preach this as heretical.
I think its time for the church to stop dancing around certain issues and get real with each other. I must proclaim what the word of God says in its proper context. My hope for those who believe that one must be baptized to be saved is that they will one day have a greater understanding of the doctrine of salvation and how big God's grace truly is.
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 5/1/2008 10:09:09 AM
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drussell52
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
I was reading on a Restoration Movement (Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ) forum this morning and saw yet another slam by this group against those who believe that salvation comes by grace through faith before water baptism.
Many within this group believe that if you do not believe what they do about baptism that you are leading others astray and you are a false teacher?
They teach that at the moment of water baptism is the moment you receive the Holy Spirit and have your sins forgiven.
How should those of us who are Evangelical approach such a group????
Hi, I have enjoyed reading this thread and quite impressed with the thoughts by blus singer.. Anyhow, when I was in college, on occasion I would attend a fellowship run by the local University Christian Church a branch of the Church of Christ. One evening, the speaker was talking about Christian sexuality and asked, what do you get when you get a Christian who commits their sex life to the Lord? I quipped, A sexy christian." That exchange always stuck with me, and though they were big on baptismal regeneration, they were also big on singing a song to 1 John 4:7-8, beloved let us love one another, for love is of God." I was never baptized when attending those meetings, but did share fellowship on those things we held in common. Jesus died for them, for me, for you.. I did struggle some with committing my life to the Lord back then, wanted to taste and see if the world was good, as for years I heard it wasn't and to abstain. Now I know, taste and see the LORD is good.. Drussell52
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 5/21/2008 9:31:38 AM
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Hobbs
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drussell52
quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
I was reading on a Restoration Movement (Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ) forum this morning and saw yet another slam by this group against those who believe that salvation comes by grace through faith before water baptism.
Many within this group believe that if you do not believe what they do about baptism that you are leading others astray and you are a false teacher?
They teach that at the moment of water baptism is the moment you receive the Holy Spirit and have your sins forgiven.
How should those of us who are Evangelical approach such a group????
Hi, I have enjoyed reading this thread and quite impressed with the thoughts by blus singer.. Anyhow, when I was in college, on occasion I would attend a fellowship run by the local University Christian Church a branch of the Church of Christ. One evening, the speaker was talking about Christian sexuality and asked, what do you get when you get a Christian who commits their sex life to the Lord? I quipped, A sexy christian." That exchange always stuck with me, and though they were big on baptismal regeneration, they were also big on singing a song to 1 John 4:7-8, beloved let us love one another, for love is of God." I was never baptized when attending those meetings, but did share fellowship on those things we held in common. Jesus died for them, for me, for you.. I did struggle some with committing my life to the Lord back then, wanted to taste and see if the world was good, as for years I heard it wasn't and to abstain. Now I know, taste and see the LORD is good.. Drussell52
Not all, but many in the RM are big on baptismal regeneration. Many will call you a false teacher and tell you that you preach a false Gospel. From one who has been in the Rm all I can say is "BEWARE!"
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 5/22/2008 8:11:06 AM
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Linkoln
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hobbs
quote:
ORIGINAL: drussell52
quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
I was reading on a Restoration Movement (Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ) forum this morning and saw yet another slam by this group against those who believe that salvation comes by grace through faith before water baptism.
Many within this group believe that if you do not believe what they do about baptism that you are leading others astray and you are a false teacher?
They teach that at the moment of water baptism is the moment you receive the Holy Spirit and have your sins forgiven.
How should those of us who are Evangelical approach such a group????
Hi, I have enjoyed reading this thread and quite impressed with the thoughts by blus singer.. Anyhow, when I was in college, on occasion I would attend a fellowship run by the local University Christian Church a branch of the Church of Christ. One evening, the speaker was talking about Christian sexuality and asked, what do you get when you get a Christian who commits their sex life to the Lord? I quipped, A sexy christian." That exchange always stuck with me, and though they were big on baptismal regeneration, they were also big on singing a song to 1 John 4:7-8, beloved let us love one another, for love is of God." I was never baptized when attending those meetings, but did share fellowship on those things we held in common. Jesus died for them, for me, for you.. I did struggle some with committing my life to the Lord back then, wanted to taste and see if the world was good, as for years I heard it wasn't and to abstain. Now I know, taste and see the LORD is good.. Drussell52
Not all, but many in the RM are big on baptismal regeneration. Many will call you a false teacher and tell you that you preach a false Gospel. From one who has been in the Rm all I can say is "BEWARE!"
Believing that baptism is what saves you or that you are saved at the moment of baptism is a man-centered gospel. The Gospel I teach and preach is one that says that God reached down and opened our hearts first and we are justified by grace through faith. The Gospel that Paul preached in Romans is the one that I hold too and cling to. Praise the Lord for this indescribable gift!
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 5/23/2008 9:12:38 AM
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FolkSingerBlues
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quote:
Believing that baptism is what saves you or that you are saved at the moment of baptism is a man-centered gospel.
That is an ambiguous statement and certainly not true.
The most frustrating part of this whole controversy is that very few people (if any) on the "faith alone" side of it really apply themselves to understanding the other side. Proverbs is FULL of teachings about applying ourselves to understanding.
Of course baptism alone doesn't save anyone, God does. The difference is we understand baptism to be a precept in his plan.
It is one thing to disagree, but to make the statement quoted above is simply ignorance.
But taking it one step further isn't it really a "man centered gospel" anyway? The whole story is about God's love for man. After all, He gave up his Son for us.
_____________________________
My Blog
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 5/23/2008 11:32:22 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
quote:
Believing that baptism is what saves you or that you are saved at the moment of baptism is a man-centered gospel.
It is one thing to disagree, but to make the statement quoted above is simply ignorance.
But taking it one step further isn't it really a "man centered gospel" anyway? The whole story is about God's love for man. After all, He gave up his Son for us.
FolkSinger,
I agree with you that it isn't inherently a man-centered gospel. But what he's trying to say, and I think you would agree, is that when man participates in his own salvation, that makes it man-centered.
That is flawed on more than one level.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 5/23/2008 9:58:53 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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Larry (good to see you again),
If a man doesn't participate in his salvation he can't be saved...lol
Phillipians 2:12
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Faith Alone & The Christian Church/Churches of Christ - 5/25/2008 12:24:28 AM
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Tomb
Posts: 270
Joined: 8/31/2007
Status: offline
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No one should ever be unkind.
*I would like to bring up a section of Scripture which teaches that a believer is not a Christian beyond a shadow of a doubt.
In (Acts 26:27) we read -
27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
The inspired word of God through the apostle Paul said that Agrippa believed,yet Agrippa said Paul ALMOST persuaded him to be a Christian.
Here we have a believer, and the inspired word of God tells us he is not a Christian.
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Next - Do you ask the people your studying the bible with to repent, confess or say a prayer to be saved? If you do then your telling people to do something to be saved. Doing any one of these nullifies faith alone
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GBNTV - Great Bible Lessons
http://www.gbntv.org/
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missionprinting.us - - click on publications
gospelpreceptor.com
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