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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 5:00:22 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Good post, thank you. There are good things to be gleaned and things to set aside in every teacher and preacher.
So, Jim Jones was a good teacher? So, David Korusch was agood teacher? So, Mary Baker Eddie was a good teacher? Just because someone can quote a biible verse doesn't make him/her a good teacher.
I never said it did.
That's why we need spiritual discernment, to discern the Jim Jones and Charles Russels from the true sheep who have good fruit in their lives but perhaps aren't completely correct in doctrine because they only see in part.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 5:56:33 PM
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SD456
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quote:
You have never heard & seen Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch literally wish death and cursings upon those they hate?
Have you ever read through the Psalms and read the countless times that David wishes God to not only annihilate his enemies, but also kill all their children, make them die poor, make them suffer terrible humiliation, make them fall into pits, etc etc. There's hundreds of verses like that.
It's nothing new for one of God's followers to wish the worst for those they see as enemies. Not necessarily the way I would go about it, but there's nothing new in it. David did this and yet God loved him and called him a man after his own heart. Go figure....
< Message edited by SD456 -- 3/29/2008 6:02:42 PM >
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 6:17:30 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
I guess your Bible is also missing Jesus calling the same ilk of His earthly time, brood of vipers, white washed tombs, walking dead men
Jesus was calling those who depended on the law for their righteousness these names, not any of His followers. Hagin trusted in Jesus for His salvation, not the law, so that argument isn't valid.
Do you believe that then gives us the right to call His followers names when we don't agree with them?
He was also calling those that were making merchandise of men - which these Word of Faith leaders do day in and day out, by the millions.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 6:19:01 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
You have never heard & seen Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch literally wish death and cursings upon those they hate?
Have you ever read through the Psalms and read the countless times that David wishes God to not only annihilate his enemies, but also kill all their children, make them die poor, make them suffer terrible humiliation, make them fall into pits, etc etc. There's hundreds of verses like that.
It's nothing new for one of God's followers to wish the worst for those they see as enemies. Not necessarily the way I would go about it, but there's nothing new in it. David did this and yet God loved him and called him a man after his own heart. Go figure....
So this gives an excuse to Hinn, Copeland and Crouch to literally curse my family and wish death upon me on TV with applause and "amens" by those in their audience
But God forbid I call the fleecers of the flock "bozos".... someone stop the presses!
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 6:29:48 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
I guess your Bible is also missing Jesus calling the same ilk of His earthly time, brood of vipers, white washed tombs, walking dead men
Jesus was calling those who depended on the law for their righteousness these names, not any of His followers. Hagin trusted in Jesus for His salvation, not the law, so that argument isn't valid.
Do you believe that then gives us the right to call His followers names when we don't agree with them?
He was also calling those that were making merchandise of men - which these Word of Faith leaders do day in and day out, by the millions.
I don't see scripture where Jesus calls those people names who make merchandise of men. Can you show me?
When he scattered the sellers in the temple, it wasn't because they were selling animals - that was an age old trade to sell animals for sacrifices - it was because they were using the temple to do the selling.
What scripture do you have that says that men cannot be provided for if they preach, or that we aren't allowed to sell books we write for a profit or that we cannot hold a gathering (that now adays cost money and back then wouldn't have cost money) for a conference of some sort?
I don't agree with all the asking for money, but it does not a heretic make. People can choose not to give.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 6:32:16 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
You have never heard & seen Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch literally wish death and cursings upon those they hate?
Have you ever read through the Psalms and read the countless times that David wishes God to not only annihilate his enemies, but also kill all their children, make them die poor, make them suffer terrible humiliation, make them fall into pits, etc etc. There's hundreds of verses like that.
It's nothing new for one of God's followers to wish the worst for those they see as enemies. Not necessarily the way I would go about it, but there's nothing new in it. David did this and yet God loved him and called him a man after his own heart. Go figure....
So this gives an excuse to Hinn, Copeland and Crouch to literally curse my family and wish death upon me on TV with applause and "amens" by those in their audience
But God forbid I call the fleecers of the flock "bozos".... someone stop the presses!
I see you guys as two peas in a pod! You both see fellows brothers as enemies and you both believe that then makes it ok to call them names or speak derogatorily of them or curse them. Not much difference in the behaviors.
Like I said, David cursed his enemies far worse over and over....there's nothing new in that happening. Though I wouldn't choose that course anymore than I would choose your course.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 6:37:14 PM
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earthless
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SD,
The same?
I have never cursed them on radio nor TV.
I have never asked God to give me a "Holy Ghost machine gun" so I can blow their heads off.
I have never "prophesied" a curse over them and their children and spouses.
I have never declined to meet with them.
I have never refused to discuss anything with them nor anyone, ever.
I have never preached a false jesus and a false gospel.
I have never made a single penny off of anyone under the banner of Christianity.
But, yea.. we're the same - peas in a pod we are.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 7:45:49 PM
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colliefan
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Rat poison is 99 per cent inert, it's the one percent that kills the rat. In David's impecatory Psalms he reveals his feelings towards his enemys but then realizes that God is the one responsible for justice.
David was a man after God's own heart but he was also a man, like us, greatly flawed.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 7:57:17 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
SD,
The same?
I have never cursed them on radio nor TV.
I have never asked God to give me a "Holy Ghost machine gun" so I can blow their heads off.
I have never "prophesied" a curse over them and their children and spouses.
I have never declined to meet with them.
I have never refused to discuss anything with them nor anyone, ever.
I have never preached a false jesus and a false gospel.
I have never made a single penny off of anyone under the banner of Christianity.
But, yea.. we're the same - peas in a pod we are.
Oh forgive me, I forgot to say that you are so highly above them, that maybe you should be the one that we all bow down to to worship.
In all honestly, the spirit in which you abuse them with your language is the same spirit with which they have abused you - just in differing degrees. You do not bless them any more than they bless you - only they are honest to make it the curse they mean while you are dishonest and use 'lighter' sounding names. Only you still are not blessing your enemies and praying for them.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 7:58:50 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Rat poison is 99 per cent inert, it's the one percent that kills the rat. In David's impecatory Psalms he reveals his feelings towards his enemys but then realizes that God is the one responsible for justice.
David was a man after God's own heart but he was also a man, like us, greatly flawed.
Absolutely true! Just as Hagin is a human, flawed just like us. Thank you.
And who knows but that they have done the same thing as David, spoke the words but then believed God would dole out the justice....
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 8:25:42 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
Just as Hagin is a human, flawed just like us. Thank you
So Jesus didn’t care about false teachers? Don’t think so, he didn’t take the Rodney King approach of “Can’t we all get along”
Matthew 7:15 - 20 (ESV) 15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Matthew 24:24 - 28 (ESV) 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Mark 13:22 - 23 (ESV) 22False christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 8:36:24 PM
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colliefan
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Let's see what the epistles say about false teachers
2 Corinthians 11:12 - 15 (ESV) 12And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds
2 Corinthians 11:25 - 27 (ESV) 25Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; 26on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; 27in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. .
Galatians 2:4 - 5 (ESV) 4Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery— 5to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.
2 Peter 2:1 - 3 (ESV) 1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 8:39:50 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
- it was because they were using the temple to do the selling.
No. It wasn't because they were using the temple for selling. It was because they were adding charges not called for in the Scriptures.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 8:41:05 PM
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SD456
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You have a lot of verses about false teachers. But knowing the verses about them doesn't prove anyone as one of them.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 8:44:59 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
- it was because they were using the temple to do the selling.
No. It wasn't because they were using the temple for selling. It was because they were adding charges not called for in the Scriptures.
Oh, so is their a scriptural mandate as to what modern day ministries can charge for things? Or a mandate as to how much we should pay a shepherd that 'is worthy of his wages'? How much is that exactly?
And if I remember correctly, most of these leaders are 'asking' for donations, not saying it's a mandate that people pay. People don't have to pay if they don't want to. It's their free choice.
I don't see anything heretical about that. To each his own.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 8:55:34 PM
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rlj
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Galatians 2:
quote:
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
So that I assume since Peter got carried away in false doctrine away from the gospel and Barnabas biblically what should have happened to them? Biblically what was actually done?
Also what about the teachings and ministry of Judas Iscariot while he was still one of the 12? Did they send someone around to poke out the eyes of the blind that he healed, break the legs of the crippled he helped walk and revoke the baptismal certificates of those he baptized?
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 9:27:23 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
But knowing the verses about them doesn't prove anyone as one of them.
There are reams of material on false teachers and their false teachings.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 9:35:45 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
So that I assume since Peter got carried away in false doctrine away from the gospel and Barnabas biblically what should have happened to them? Biblically what was actually done?
Paul openly opposed Peter's hypocracy. Not his teachings. I have no clue what you mean about Barnabas other than he and Paul differed greatly about John Mark to the point they went their seperate ways. Some years later, Paul would say that John Mark was useful to him.
Both had probably changed.
quote:
Also what about the teachings and ministry of Judas Iscariot while he was still one of the 12? Did they send someone around to poke out the eyes of the blind that he healed, break the legs of the crippled he helped walk and revoke the baptismal certificates of those he baptized?
Have no clue what you mean. Judas helped no one but himself in stealing from the money bag.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 9:46:55 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
But knowing the verses about them doesn't prove anyone as one of them.
There are reams of material on false teachers and their false teachings.
The amount of material against one does not prove one a false teacher.
There is much written against Billy Graham, hank hanegraff, loads of stuff from the 19th century against Charles Finney and the 2nd Great Awakening written by the conservative evangelicals of the time, even reams of stuff against Jesus written by all kinds of people.
The amount means nothing.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 10:32:35 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
SD,
The same?
I have never cursed them on radio nor TV.
I have never asked God to give me a "Holy Ghost machine gun" so I can blow their heads off.
I have never "prophesied" a curse over them and their children and spouses.
I have never declined to meet with them.
I have never refused to discuss anything with them nor anyone, ever.
I have never preached a false jesus and a false gospel.
I have never made a single penny off of anyone under the banner of Christianity.
But, yea.. we're the same - peas in a pod we are.
Oh forgive me, I forgot to say that you are so highly above them, that maybe you should be the one that we all bow down to to worship.
In all honestly, the spirit in which you abuse them with your language is the same spirit with which they have abused you - just in differing degrees. You do not bless them any more than they bless you - only they are honest to make it the curse they mean while you are dishonest and use 'lighter' sounding names. Only you still are not blessing your enemies and praying for them.
Just because a Christian doesn't curse anyone to death or preach heresy does not mean said Christian is "above" anyone else or worthy of worship.
Yet another irony here is that these WoF leaders are indeed placed highly above others by their followers/supporters. And they do not object.
I have been praying for them and PERSONALLY know many of them, have broken bread with them, have prayed TOGETHER with them. But decades go by and they do not repent of their errors, instead they grow bolder in their lies and in their stealing of people's money, health, and literal lives.
Have you ever lost a loved one because of these that you, regardless of knowing their rank heresies, defend day in and day out? Why not defend the Word instead of being loyal to men and women that belittle the Jesus you and I both claim to be our Lord and Savior?
I.just.don't.get.you.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 10:49:21 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Just because a Christian doesn't curse anyone to death or preach heresy does not mean said Christian is "above" anyone else or worthy of worship.
Yet another irony here is that these WoF leaders are indeed placed highly above others by their followers/supporters. And they do not object.
I have been praying for them and PERSONALLY know many of them, have broken bread with them, have prayed TOGETHER with them. But decades go by and they do not repent of their errors, instead they grow bolder in their lies and in their stealing of people's money, health, and literal lives.
Have you ever lost a loved one because of these that you, regardless of knowing their rank heresies, defend day in and day out? Why not defend the Word instead of being loyal to men and women that belittle the Jesus you and I both claim to be our Lord and Savior?
I.just.don't.get.you.
Why do you not lay it down at the cross and allow Jesus to deal out justice the way that He sees fit and allow Jesus to be the one to separate the sheep from the goats?
I guess i don't understand you the same way. No one is forced to give anyone money, every pastor has preached something or done something that has hurt somebody somewhere. Do you know if Hagin is in hell right now? If you don't know this, then you don't know if he was a heretic teaching heresies. Because heretics are consigned to hell. If you are not certain, then why keep implyng that he is? You really don't know.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 10:59:47 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
The amount of material against one does not prove one a false teacher.
Their is vast evidence of their false teaching. Their teachings have been measured against orthodox Christianity and found to be lacking. The fact many different people have proven their teaching to be false cinches the deal.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 11:04:41 PM
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colliefan
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You don't unstand that we are to content for the faith and we are reveal false teachers for who they are; read II Timothy en toto. There false teaching is to be revealed. It is up to God to determine their fate.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 11:29:48 PM
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Propitiation
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SD456. Preaching that Jesus had to be born again is a small error? That goes against orthodox christianity.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/29/2008 11:33:26 PM
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Propitiation
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The only reasonable explanation of this whole doctrine of a "born again Jesus" is the rejection of the cross of Jesus Christ. The blood of our redemption as the only plan or possibility for forgiveness and newly redeemed life has been totally denied by Kenneth Hagin, Keneth Copland Benny Hinn, Paul and Jan Crouch, and the majority of the Charismatic World. To explain a "born again Jesus" in any lesser words is to play games with this foul doctrine. The plain statement by Hagin, "physical death would not remove our sins," is a statement of finality. The only way His blood could have been shed for us is by His physical death. To suggest anything needed above or beyond that act of "the shedding of blood" is heresy. Jesus Himself said, "It is finished." (John
19:30).
In other words, Hagin is teaching that, at the moment Jesus "gave up the ghost", He had not yet redeemed mankind from sin! This is rank heresy, for the translation "It is finished" is a Greek economic term that means "The debt is fully paid" (Strong's Number 5055, 'teleo", meaning, "It is finished or paid, Christ satisfied God's justice by dying for all to pay for the sins of the elect"—Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary). When a person living at that time paid off a loan for his house, the original loan paper would be affixed to his door with "teleo" written across -- "Paid In Full". At the moment Jesus uttered those words and then "gave up the ghost" to die, the sin debt to God was fully paid and mankind was fully redeemed! That is Biblical Doctrine.
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