|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/31/2008 3:29:07 AM
|
|
|
Sammy_S
Posts: 558
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
Didn't miss a thing.
Uhh ok?Even though you refuted your believes on your own?
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/31/2008 3:36:06 AM
|
|
|
Corne
Posts: 1214
Status: offline
|
I didn't really lay out any beliefs. The basic notion of descention into hell has been repeated by christians in creeds for eons. I did not delve into Hagin's hell theology or any other theology. Just reminding of the creeds. It influences the mindset of christians.
Just food for thought.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/31/2008 3:38:50 AM
|
|
|
Sammy_S
Posts: 558
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
I didn't really lay out any beliefs. The basic notion of descention into hell has been repeated by christians in creeds for eons. I did not delve into Hagin's hell theology or any other theology. Just reminding of the creeds. It influences the mindset of christians.
Just food for thought.
I understand that but I just pointed out that hey were speaking of hades and not hell.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/31/2008 7:59:20 AM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6219
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
WOF did not introduce the idea that Jesus descended into hell. That statement has been in creeds since before 500AD, including the apostles creed.
And did those creeds also say that Jesus did not atone for our sins on the cross? And did those creeds also say that Jesus was tortued by Satan and the demonic for three days? And did those creeds also say that Jesus wasn't God while there, had to speak words of faith and become the first born again man to get out of Hell?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/31/2008 1:16:44 PM
|
|
|
Corne
Posts: 1214
Status: offline
|
MMMMMM no. Only pointing out that, that is there, has been there, and that makes it a lot less strange to people when they hear that expounded on.
Think about it.
The Apostle's Creed says:
"was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell."
That creed has been learned and recited for a very long time. Before 500AD. Who gets out their greek lexicon wondering what the word "hell" might really mean in the creed?
< Message edited by Corne -- 3/31/2008 1:49:17 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 3/31/2008 2:07:37 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6219
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
MMMMMM no.
And that is why the Word of Faith movement needs to be corrected and the brethren warned.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/27/2008 12:45:15 PM
|
|
|
pray4all
Posts: 345
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
WOF did not introduce the idea that Jesus descended into hell. That statement has been in creeds since before 500AD, including the apostles creed.
there's a faith preacher out there that talks about this very same thing he says john calvins teachings about Jesus entering hell is identical to kenneth hagins he even wrote down what john calvin said about this topic????
i know my pastor says that Jesus smaked the devil upside the head and took the keys to death/ hell/ and the grave from him
http://revpistis.wordpress.com/category/apologetics/
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/27/2008 2:13:41 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6219
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
i know my pastor says that Jesus smaked the devil upside the head
Where in Scripture does your pastor get this from?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/27/2008 2:57:00 PM
|
|
|
Soxfan
Posts: 1492
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
i know my pastor says that Jesus smaked the devil upside the head and took the keys to death/ hell/ and the grave from him
That would be a neat trick since Jesus ALREADY had the keys
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/28/2008 9:02:21 AM
|
|
|
pray4all
Posts: 345
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline
|
romans 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
just part more to follow
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/28/2008 9:05:13 AM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6219
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
|
OK.........
So where in those passages does it say Jesus slapped Satan around and took something from him that Jesus already have?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/28/2008 12:12:28 PM
|
|
|
pray4all
Posts: 345
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
OK.........
So where in those passages does it say Jesus slapped Satan around and took something from him that Jesus already have?
you forgot i said more to come
but now i must check your theology, when did Jesus have it? when did he conquer death, hell, and the grave?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/28/2008 12:15:13 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6219
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
OK.........
So where in those passages does it say Jesus slapped Satan around and took something from him that Jesus already have?
you forgot i said more to come
but now i must check your theology, when did Jesus have it? when did he conquer death, hell, and the grave?
Let's first finish one thing before we continue to jump topics and derail threads. If you want to question my beliefs, have questions for me, etc.. I am more than happy and willing to respond to any and all questions. But this thread is about Kenneth Hagin, not earthless.
Feel free to start a 'ask earthless a question...' thread if you'd like, I will gladly respond there.
If you don't want to provide the Scripture (because there isn't any) that says Jesus slapped Satan around, no problem. But let's not try to deflect from that with wanting to turn this thread that is about Hagin's teachings into things they are not.
< Message edited by earthless -- 4/28/2008 12:21:23 PM >
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/28/2008 12:36:11 PM
|
|
|
pray4all
Posts: 345
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
OK.........
So where in those passages does it say Jesus slapped Satan around and took something from him that Jesus already have?
you forgot i said more to come
but now i must check your theology, when did Jesus have it? when did he conquer death, hell, and the grave?
Let's first finish one thing before we continue to jump topics and derail threads. If you want to question my beliefs, have questions for me, etc.. I am more than happy and willing to respond to any and all questions. But this thread is about Kenneth Hagin, not earthless.
Feel free to start a 'ask earthless a question...' thread if you'd like, I will gladly respond there.
If you don't want to provide the Scripture (because there isn't any) that says Jesus slapped Satan around, no problem. But let's not try to deflect from that with wanting to turn this thread that is about Hagin's teachings into things they are not.
not jumping topic, earthless started thread and made statment "something Jesus already had" you can't answer that with scripture, without going to the attonment of fallen man. sin was defeated by Jesus, and sin = death, hell and the grave.
rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/28/2008 12:51:56 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6219
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
|
Just letting you know that I am willing to be questioned by you or anyone about my teachings, beliefs, etc.. but that a new/separate thread for that purpose alone would be better and within the rules of the TOS.
I will wait for you to post the Scripture that shows Jesus slapped Satan around. Teaching that as a fact from a pulpit is problematic. If that is how he presented it, we can't know without the context.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/28/2008 12:52:21 PM
|
|
|
pray4all
Posts: 345
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
OK.........
So where in those passages does it say Jesus slapped Satan around and took something from him that Jesus already have?
collosians 12:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/28/2008 12:55:42 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6219
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
|
He (Jesus) made a show of them OPENLY (at the cross), not meaning He was in Hell slapping Satan around.
Plus, Satan and the demonic were not and are not in Hell right now - he roams the earth to and fro seeking whom to devour. Satan and his ilk have not yet been thrown (cast) into the lake of fire.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/28/2008 12:56:58 PM
|
|
|
pray4all
Posts: 345
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Just letting you know that I am willing to be questioned by you or anyone about my teachings, beliefs, etc.. but that a new/separate thread for that purpose alone would be better and within the rules of the TOS.
I will wait for you to post the Scripture that shows Jesus slapped Satan around. Teaching that as a fact from a pulpit is problematic. If that is how he presented it, we can't know without the context.
perhaps he was just glad that Jesus defeated the works of the devil, namely sin.
i myself like to think that Jesus delivered a knock out blow to the devil? how about you??
the word trinity does not appear in the bible but yet christians believe it, so would a person that mentions the word trinity from the pulpit be a heretic?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/28/2008 1:13:11 PM
|
|
|
Soxfan
Posts: 1492
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
|
Contrary to Hagin's HERETICAL theology, here is what the Bible really says:
1. Jesus went into Hades, where the faithful were, not hell, where the wicked are punished. Hagin and others in the Word of Faith cult do not believe in His victory on the cross, but instead teach it was not completed on the cross, but rather in a battle in hell with the devil.
Sounds exicitng, but guess what? It's not true! This imaginative battle actually brings destruction to the gospel where Jesus REALLY conquered Satan and crushed Satan's head on the cross, not in hell. Colossians 2:15 says, “Having disarmed principalities and powers, he made a public spectacle of them triumphing over them in it.” This victory happened on the cross (v.14), so what is Christ doing suffering in hell by these same principalities and powers, as claimed?
This doctrine is dangerous and affects many. If Jesus went to hell, then Jesus did not speak the truth buy saying IT IS FINISHED. The death of Christ on the cross is then insufficient, not having the power by itself to save anyone. Thus, Paul could not have preached Christ was crucified for salvation..
2. Neither does Scripture say “Jesus took the keys of hell and death from Satan.” This again is a false teaching from Hagin and others in the WoF cult. Neither did Satan steal the keys from Adam as the word faith teachers espouse, because Adam did not have them.
Here’s what the Scripture says in Rev. 1:18: “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Where does it say he took them? He possessed them. Again, the word faith preachers go beyond what is written with their imagination and make this up. This is a great Bible myth. In Rev. 1:18 the word is Hades, not hell; the key is the emblem of power and authority. Christ can both save and destroy, can both kill and make alive; similarly Jesus said in john 10:18 that no man takes His life from him, He lays it down himself. Death is still under His dominion, and He can recall the dead whenever He pleases. He is the resurrection and the life.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 tells us that “Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again.” There are no details like the name it and claim preachers have added with their fertile imaginations. It may make for good story-or Carman song, but to cheer at this shows complete Biblical ignorance.
Jesus said on the cross before He died, “Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit” (Matthew 27:50; John 19:30). If He landed in hell under Satan, then who is His Father in whom He committed his Spirit to? This is not a good picture; it mocks the most sacred time of Jesus' ministry, the very purpose for which the Son of God came to earth.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/28/2008 2:41:46 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6219
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
perhaps he was just glad that Jesus defeated the works of the devil, namely sin.
i myself like to think that Jesus delivered a knock out blow to the devil? how about you??
Of course, but we're to go by Scripture alone and not emotions which can lead us to make pronouncements from the pulpit as if the words were from God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
the word trinity does not appear in the bible but yet christians believe it, so would a person that mentions the word trinity from the pulpit be a heretic?
The word grandfather is not used in the Bible either. Yet, we know there were grandfathers in the Bible. Abraham was the grandfather of Jacob. So don't get hung up on the term "Trinity" itself.
Of real importance is that the concept is REPRESENTED by the word "Trinity" does exist in Scripture.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/28/2008 6:49:30 PM
|
|
|
pray4all
Posts: 345
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Contrary to Hagin's HERETICAL theology, here is what the Bible really says:
1. Jesus went into Hades, where the faithful were, not hell, where the wicked are punished. Hagin and others in the Word of Faith cult do not believe in His victory on the cross, but instead teach it was not completed on the cross, but rather in a battle in hell with the devil.
Sounds exicitng, but guess what? It's not true! This imaginative battle actually brings destruction to the gospel where Jesus REALLY conquered Satan and crushed Satan's head on the cross, not in hell. Colossians 2:15 says, “Having disarmed principalities and powers, he made a public spectacle of them triumphing over them in it.” This victory happened on the cross (v.14), so what is Christ doing suffering in hell by these same principalities and powers, as claimed?
This doctrine is dangerous and affects many. If Jesus went to hell, then Jesus did not speak the truth buy saying IT IS FINISHED. The death of Christ on the cross is then insufficient, not having the power by itself to save anyone. Thus, Paul could not have preached Christ was crucified for salvation..
2. Neither does Scripture say “Jesus took the keys of hell and death from Satan.” This again is a false teaching from Hagin and others in the WoF cult. Neither did Satan steal the keys from Adam as the word faith teachers espouse, because Adam did not have them.
Here’s what the Scripture says in Rev. 1:18: “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Where does it say he took them? He possessed them. Again, the word faith preachers go beyond what is written with their imagination and make this up. This is a great Bible myth. In Rev. 1:18 the word is Hades, not hell; the key is the emblem of power and authority. Christ can both save and destroy, can both kill and make alive; similarly Jesus said in john 10:18 that no man takes His life from him, He lays it down himself. Death is still under His dominion, and He can recall the dead whenever He pleases. He is the resurrection and the life.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 tells us that “Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again.” There are no details like the name it and claim preachers have added with their fertile imaginations. It may make for good story-or Carman song, but to cheer at this shows complete Biblical ignorance.
Jesus said on the cross before He died, “Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit” (Matthew 27:50; John 19:30). If He landed in hell under Satan, then who is His Father in whom He committed his Spirit to? This is not a good picture; it mocks the most sacred time of Jesus' ministry, the very purpose for which the Son of God came to earth.
pray4all LOL, so the faithful went to hades, with the rich man i guess, where was lazarus?
if that hagin teaching is heretical, i guess the reformer john calvin is a heretic too
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/28/2008 8:46:17 PM
|
|
|
pray4all
Posts: 345
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
It's not wrong to call one a heretic if he is.Paul did that,was he wrong?
BTW,i do not hate them at all,I hate what they preach.The wrath of God is upon them not mine.And I do not consider themselves as an enemy of mine,my enemies are Satan and my flesh I do not need more enemies.But if they do not repent of their false teachings they are enemies of God and that is far worse then a child like myself complaining about their teachings.
This is not about who is right or wrong,it's about the truth in God's word
How do you know so?Should you not leave that to God?Secondly,Just because one "believes" in Jesus Christ as his salvation does not mean that lived his life according to that "belief".
I always "believed" in Christ as my salvation but my heart was far from him and I was awaiting his wrath had he not saved me.
it is not wrong to call one a heretic if he is, according to what i think, sounds closer to truth to me, sammy could you ck out this site and let me know if the reformer john calvin is a heretic according to your definition of the term.
http://revpistis.wordpress.com/category/apologetics/
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/28/2008 9:53:00 PM
|
|
|
colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
|
quote:
reformer john calvin is a heretic according to your definition of the term.
No, because Calvin was using it as the writers of the Creeds did, hell as a place of the dead not the place of eternal torment
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 4/28/2008 11:18:07 PM
|
|
|
pray4all
Posts: 345
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
reformer john calvin is a heretic according to your definition of the term.
No, because Calvin was using it as the writers of the Creeds did, hell as a place of the dead not the place of eternal torment
you need to read the link i posted in the above post
here it is again
http://revpistis.wordpress.com/category/apologetics/ look at the bottom of the page thank you
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
