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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 11/8/2008 3:56:16 PM
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themoodyexperience
Posts: 1130
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From: Tuscumbia, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
for the sake of disagreing right now on that point, may I ask you earthless if a person did believe that, would it make them a heretic, according to you?
No, but it would mean they are severely confused about what the Gospel is and what life for a believer entails.
Jesus predicted for His followers poverty, rejection, and persecution. His disciples were willing to face the tyrant's brandished steel, the lion's gory mane, and the fires of a thousand deaths because they knew that they were not of this world.
They were merely pilgrims and sojourners in a foreign land. Perhaps Charles Haddon Spurgeon said it best: "The Old Covenant was a covenant of prosperity, the New Covenant is a Covenant of Adversity whereby we are weaned from the present world and made fit for the world to come."
In Hebrews 11, often referred to as the "Faith Hall of Fame," we read of those who were commended for their faith, yet were destitute, persecuted, imprisoned, and suffered torturous deaths. These men and women set examples for us, and yet their lives were characterized more by perseverance than by prosperity.
Certainly, this message will not sell well in a self-indulgent age. Nonetheless, we had better be glad that our heavenly Father decides what is best for us and not we ourselves, because only He truly understands what we need and what we can handle. One shudders to think of what would happen if God gave us everything we clamored for.
I praise Jesus for His saying 'NO' to many of my prayers. I would be dead by now and or in serious peril if I got everything I have ever asked for.
Well said.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 11/8/2008 7:10:18 PM
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gennaoanothen
Posts: 222
Joined: 10/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
for the sake of disagreing right now on that point, may I ask you earthless if a person did believe that, would it make them a heretic, according to you?
No, but it would mean they are severely confused about what the Gospel is and what life for a believer entails.
Jesus predicted for His followers poverty, rejection, and persecution. His disciples were willing to face the tyrant's brandished steel, the lion's gory mane, and the fires of a thousand deaths because they knew that they were not of this world.
They were merely pilgrims and sojourners in a foreign land. Perhaps Charles Haddon Spurgeon said it best: "The Old Covenant was a covenant of prosperity, the New Covenant is a Covenant of Adversity whereby we are weaned from the present world and made fit for the world to come."
In Hebrews 11, often referred to as the "Faith Hall of Fame," we read of those who were commended for their faith, yet were destitute, persecuted, imprisoned, and suffered torturous deaths. These men and women set examples for us, and yet their lives were characterized more by perseverance than by prosperity.
Certainly, this message will not sell well in a self-indulgent age. Nonetheless, we had better be glad that our heavenly Father decides what is best for us and not we ourselves, because only He truly understands what we need and what we can handle. One shudders to think of what would happen if God gave us everything we clamored for.
I praise Jesus for His saying 'NO' to many of my prayers. I would be dead by now and or in serious peril if I got everything I have ever asked for.
earthless, you changed "healing", into poverty and persecution, and rejection
_____________________________
2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth , to show Himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward Him. see also ps 34:15, 1 Peter 3:12, ps 33:18
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 11/8/2008 7:21:07 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6355
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
earthless, you changed "healing", into poverty and persecution, and rejection
No I did not, passages speak of Jesus telling His followers they will suffer because of Him. And the Apostles, the disciples, the first century church sure did. As do hundreds of thousands of our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, right now, around the world.
The Word of Faith message sells well in a Western society.. but tell that to our fellow brother in China or the Middle East that are raped, beaten, beheaded, murdered... all because of their faith in Jesus.
I pray for people when they are sick, in need, in trouble, etc.. but I pray for His will to be done, not mine. And His will is perfect and does not always mean we get what we want.
I do not wish to be misunderstood: I believe in divine healing and in God's provision for every detail of our lives.
In addition, I do not associate piety with poverty.
I thank God for those He has prospered who are dedicated to using their resources for the extension of His Kingdom.
But for the Word of Faith teachers, healing and prosperity became so important that they had to find some way to guarantee them, and they did this by exalting man's faith at the expense of God's sovereignty.
Thus, they developed the doctrine that God created the world out of nothing by faith, and that He created men as "little gods" to exercise the same kind of faith. Faith therefore becomes a powerful force that gets results, whether in the hands of a believer or a nonbeliever.
On the basis of this virtual deification of human faith, the purveyors of the Word of Faith message promise health and wealth to those who exercise faith in their faith rather than faith in their God.
As has been well said elsewhere, faith is only as good as the object on which it is placed.
Walter Martin used to say, "All faith is subsumed under the overarching biblical doctrine of the sovereignty of God."
The Creator is the Lord of the universe, not a cosmic "gofer" at the beck and call of His creation. It is not our faith that sits on the throne, but our sovereign God (1 Chronicles 29:10-12).
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 11/9/2008 7:29:04 PM
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prophet
Posts: 691
Joined: 4/19/2005
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ALAS..........Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego did not have the faith of Hagin! 
16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. 17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. 18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
Wheres yer faith, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego?
Soarry for the sacarsm..... 
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 11/9/2008 7:40:46 PM
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prophet
Posts: 691
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
" Kenneth Hagin teaches, "It is unscriptural to pray, 'If it is the will of God.' When you put an 'if' in your prayer, you are praying in doubt.( K.Hagin, Exeedingly Growing Faith P.10 2nd ed.)
quote:
Kenneth Hagin in "Healing the fathers provision" pg.9 "I believe it is the plan of our father that no believer should be sick that every believer should live his life to the full time and actually wear out if Jesus tarries then fall asleep in Jesus I state boldly it is not the will of God my father that we should suffer with cancer and other dread diseases and bring pain and anguish. No . It is gods will that we should be healed.""
In my understanding, the whole of creation is mourning. i understand Gods will for redemption of this imperfect creation due to sin BUT i cannot see anyway that Gods will that we should be healed phsically NOW.
Looks like Hagin did not place a lot of emphasis on Gods will be done????
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 11/9/2008 7:54:28 PM
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golfjack
Posts: 63
Joined: 10/23/2008
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Don't you people know what God's Will is? HIS WILL IS FOUND IN HIS WORD.
Peace, Golfjack
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 11/9/2008 7:56:54 PM
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prophet
Posts: 691
Joined: 4/19/2005
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Wellll looks like like some do not.....
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 11/9/2008 9:16:58 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6355
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
Don't you people know what God's Will is? HIS WILL IS FOUND IN HIS WORD.
Peace, Golfjack
His will is not an earthly utopia for all in this present time.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 11/9/2008 10:10:11 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
ALAS..........Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego did not have the faith of Hagin!
16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. 17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. 18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
Wheres yer faith, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego?
Soarry for the sacarsm.....
But I thought that you saying, "If it is God's will," was faith killing words.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 11/9/2008 10:28:20 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
Don't you people know what God's Will is? HIS WILL IS FOUND IN HIS WORD.
Peace, Golfjack
Please do tell.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: :: Official Kenneth Hagin Discussion - 11/9/2008 10:50:26 PM
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prophet
Posts: 691
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
ALAS..........Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego did not have the faith of Hagin!
16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. 17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. 18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
Wheres yer faith, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego?
Soarry for the sacarsm.....
But I thought that you saying, "If it is God's will," was faith killing words.
Not me mate....was K hagin who said that!
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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