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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 12:08:55 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
URForgiven:
Hell is not a motivation [though it can be used as such], it is a fact. As I have said before, God came to me when I came to the end of myself. I wasn't thinking about the next life, I was thinking about this life. I needed Jesus now. I was dead now. And I needed life now.
God does not save us so much to keep us out of Hell, as to get Heaven back into us.
This is a present reality in this life, not just something that we look forward to in the next.
that’s a pretty good way of putting it, Urie. I agree fully, excellent point.It’s beyond any doubt that Satan is an absolute King of this world.
Even without such ironclad proof like Scriptures, (or general election,current pathetic state of the Union , and other evil things like term papers, liberal professors, low-anything-diets, algore, taxes, whatever that CNN news reports on, or loudmouth Israelis,) it's easy to prove Hell on Earth – just observing this world is in for 10 min. straight on any given day is sufficient enough to thoroughly convince anybody that Hell is our world’s default condition.
Also I am with Jimbo, SH and other brethren/sistren on the idea that:
While literal, (described in Revelation) Hell , like a nice Desert Eagle, is a great conversational piece, and is immensely helpful to make a solid point, one can’t be scared into loving Jesus. Even if Hell were to get cancelled tomorrow, I won’t Love Him any bit less.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 2:28:48 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
First off, since you mentioned placing words in the mouths of others and being misleading, I wish to point out how clear it should be that I quoted no one and was clearly not speaking of this thread in particular, but threads in general in which hell comes to be discussed. Notice in particular the words I used:
So you haven’t actually seen anyone say those things? Your point seems rather predicated on that fact.
quote:
At least that seems to indicate that we wouldn't want Christ, in regard to His salvation, if not for postmortem punishment for sin as opposed to the sin itself.
Well, no, it fairly specifically refers to the reason for which Christ died. Presumably, we all believe that Christ died for a reason, and that reason wasn’t simply to make life on earth better for us.
quote:
???? What do you think a "hypothetical" is? Any hypothetical, by virtue of being a hypothetical would not be the gospel at all. Also, I made it abundantly clear I was not suggesting the existence of any such reality.
I wanted to illustrate things in such a way so as to help people see what really horrifies them more: physical torment, much like the usual perceptions of Hell, or the infection of sin itself.
While all hypotheticals fall short, in order for a hypothetical to work it may not exist in reality, but it should be logically valid within itself. In this case where you are attempting to parse ‘physical torment’ from ‘bondage to sin’, both of which are the direct result of sin, it seems to me it lacks that internal validity. It is rather like asking whether a drowning person should be more bothered by the lack of oxygen they are receiving or the fact that water is filling up their lungs; obviously the two are rather directly related, and so such a question makes little sense.
And that is rather the overall broad point to this discussion; we cannot parse ‘hell’ out from the notion of ‘sin’ nor from an accurate understanding of the gospel. One is simply the product of the other; our belief would fall short if it did not include such a notion, and the fearful understanding both.
< Message edited by Jhud -- 4/7/2008 2:42:09 PM >
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 2:32:19 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Even if Hell were to get cancelled tomorrow, I won’t Love Him any bit less.
So if God no longer punished sins, if you knew Hitler would be lounging about in heaven, unrepentent and as hateful as ever, it wouldn't change your notion of God at all?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 3:30:21 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Sounds like the attitude problem of the Prodigal Son's brother.
Also sounds like many portions of the Psalms (remember, I said "portions").
And like Peter to Jesus about John's fate.
Well, no, that is rather a twisting of those examples. In each case we have someone who repented of the path they had taken, and God’s subsequent response to that repentance.
Indeed, no Christian should question that Hitler could repent; however, one should be greatly concerned about a God who just blithely dismissed the evil Hitler had done. He would cease to be a God of justice, and grace and mercy would be meaningless, because there is no need of grace if God can simply disregard sin.
So what I am talking about is a fundamental change in our understanding of the way God says He will deal with those who are unrepentant.
It would be as if one day God said, “Nevermind; this whole nonsense about ‘He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.’ no longer applies; we will all just pretend evil doesn’t exist” - that would represent a fundamental shift in our understanding of God.
quote:
I learned long ago not to compare the situation God has me in with the circumstances of others, believers or not. Life is complicated enough without jealousy or anger over the way God deals with someone else.
It’s not a matter of ‘comparison’, it is a matter of understanding who God says He is; we can’t just blithely disregard that and say, “He could just as well be otherwise, it makes no difference”
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 3:38:48 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
Odeliya: Even if Hell were to get cancelled tomorrow, I won’t Love Him any bit less.
Jack : So if God no longer punished sins, if you knew Hitler would be lounging about in heaven, unrepentent and as hateful as ever, it wouldn't change your notion of God at all?
Well, i was rather trying to make a point that i dont love God for he punishes offenders, but because I just love Him, unconditionally. If he sees fit, he could cancel Hell and whatever, annihilate offenders, i dont know. I wont love him any less.
But it's hypothetical, of course. If Hitler was born again and repented before he died, I wont mind him in Heaven, (like Jimbo said, i am not better prodigal dauther) even if Adolf still dosnt quite likes jews .
I mean as for Jewhater there is bad boy Martin Luther already , so one more one less... 
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 3:40:21 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Okay, then, let's just not have any more hypothetical questions if we don't want hypothetical answers.
We can certainly get rid of the hypotheticals, but that just brings us back to reality, which is that God, men, sin, heaven, and hell are all inexoriably linked together - we can't simply parse them apart and say, "I would still believe if reality were different than it is" .
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 3:41:36 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Well, i was rather trying to make a point that i dont love God for he punishes offenders, but because I just love Him, unconditionally. If he sees fit, he could cancel Hell and whatever, annihilate offenders, i dont know. I wont love him any less.
But it's hypothetical, of course. If Hitler was born again and repented before he died, I wont mind him in Heaven, (like Jimbo said, i am not better prodigal dauther) even if Adolf still dosnt quite likes jews .
I mean as for Jewhater there is bad boy Martin Luther already , so one more one less...
What do you love about God?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 3:51:04 PM
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Odeliya
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Jack, I see what you mean. We love God for many things, one of them for he is Just, and Hell is the part of Justice, I am not suggesting that God cancells justice, what i meant to say was that whatever God does is fine with me, for I know He would be still remain just, and loving, etc..
Like I am confident if you say to your lovely bride that " whatever you do i still love you and still am your husband" doesnt mean she will start feeding you dog food or cheating right away; neither do you expect her to, it's just by saying that you mean to convey the idea : I love you/remain your spouse not because you are good to me, but unconditionally.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 3:55:43 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Jack, I see what you mean. We love God for many things, one of them for he is Just, and Hell is the part of Justice, I am not suggesting that God cancells justice, what i meant to say was that whatever God does is fine with me, for I know He would be still remain just, and loving, etc..
Like I am confident if you say to your lovely bride that " whatever you do i still love you and still am your husband" doesnt mean she will start feeding you dog food or cheating right away; neither do you expect her to, it's just by saying that you mean to convey the idea : I love you/remain your spouse not because you are good to me, but unconditionally.
Well, yes, that is pretty much on the right track.
Though I think in keeping with your analogy (we can't get away from them, can we?) finding out there was no hell and God was indifferent to my sin would be akin to finding out my lovely bride was a man, and already married at that.
Probably grounds for a reconsideration of my unconditional love at least.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 4:32:53 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
Though I think in keeping with your analogy (we can't get away from them, can we?) finding out there was no hell and God was indifferent to my sin
see I didn’t equate these two( maybe I just want clear, me speaks no perfect English yet)
I said:God still remains just.
So I was considering a hypoth. situation, maybe like if God would cancell Hell while still remaining just. Let’ say maybe subsitute Hell for something, like Village People concert for eternity; or perpetual visiting of mother-in-law, or eternal convention of liberal academics; or becoming John Hagee’s or Benny Hinn's next wife.
oopps..  , now we talking. That last one just have scared me pretty much into, if I wasn’t Christian already, ** begging***for salvation. I think I see your point better now…
:))))
well i also think we both reached understanding of each other's points.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 5:06:05 PM
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Dred
Posts: 204
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From: Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well, no, it fairly specifically refers to the reason for which Christ died. Presumably, we all believe that Christ died for a reason, and that reason wasn’t simply to make life on earth better for us.
No, your assertion was that the salvation of Christ was simply for us to avoid Hell and nothing else. What else does it mean when you say "the gospel makes no sense if hell doesn't exist; there is no reason for Christ to die, nothing for us to be saved from." You are certainly saying there is nothing for us to be saved from but Hell.
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"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 5:19:50 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
No, your assertion was that the salvation of Christ was simply for us to avoid Hell and nothing else. What else does it mean when you say "the gospel makes no sense if hell doesn't exist; there is no reason for Christ to die, nothing for us to be saved from." You are certainly saying there is nothing for us to be saved from but Hell.
It means that if there was some lesser goal, then the gospel makes little sense; presumably, the salvation of Christ saves us from something, or else it's not really 'salvation' is it?
Of course, that means it also saves us into something (eternal life with God), but both are really either side of the same coin.
Now while we might also say that it effects our release from the bondage of sin, what sin binds us from (a relationship with God) is effectively a description of the same thing.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 5:37:12 PM
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Dred
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Now while we might also say that it effects our release from the bondage of sin, what sin binds us from (a relationship with God) is effectively a description of the same thing.
Okay, I can make sense of that. However, sin is then the causative thing and the thing from which we should then want to be cured. Of course, people may reject any disease because of the really unpleasant symptoms, but they would want to be cured. Occasionally, a doctor may have to talk some weak-minded person into going to greater lengths to cure a bad disease when, for the moment, the symptoms are being covered. I think people may be woken up to their sin problem by an image of Hell, but I believe they then need to come to see the disease itself as something to reject, if they haven't already.
Regarding eternal life, I pointed out in my earliest post that Jesus defined eternal life (John 17:3) as knowing God, the eternal one. It isn't about the duration of life but it's quality; being united with the eternal one, what could one do but live forever? However, I think too often people think of gaining eternal life as desirable so they can continue forever as the people they are. That is the flip side of the misconceived, postmortem motivations for becoming Christians. It isn't about just going on as who you are, but being delivered from who you have made yourself so that you can become pure in heart and see God.
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 5:44:26 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Okay, I can make sense of that. However, sin is then the causative thing and the thing from which we should then want to be cured. Of course, people may reject any disease because of the really unpleasant symptoms, but they would want to be cured. Occasionally, a doctor may have to talk some weak-minded person into going to greater lengths to cure a bad disease when, for the moment, the symptoms are being covered. I think people may be woken up to their sin problem by an image of Hell, but I believe they then need to come to see the disease itself as something to reject, if they haven't already.
Regarding eternal life, I pointed out in my earliest post that Jesus defined eternal life (John 17:3) as knowing God, the eternal one. It isn't about the duration of life but it's quality; being united with the eternal one, what could one do but live forever? However, I think too often people think of gaining eternal life as desirable so they can continue forever as the people they are. That is the flip side of the misconceived, postmortem motivations for becoming Christians. It isn't about just going on as who you are, but being delivered from who you have made yourself so that you can become pure in heart and see God.
Well, sure, although I think it might go the other way as well; if I understand that what I was effected hell, then I think I should want to get as far away from what I was as God's grace would allow, no?
In fact, I think there is some argument that some of our greatest revivals, and here I am thinking of the First Great Awakening via preachers like Jonathan Edwards, had much to do with a realization that our sin left us dangling above God's eternal wrath, and that we needed to cast ourselves onto God's mercy through Christ in order to escape it.
I think there was certainly no less love of God then than there is now, despite this motivation.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/8/2008 12:29:31 PM
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sinlessingodseyes
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While I don't agree with the original statement (wholly) I believe it is partially true in some cases. In my own case i sought Jesus (as i was raised in a Christian home) as a means of escaping hell. As I grew into the Christian I am Jesus became more than something I cling on to save me, the relationship has changed to one of love and adoration for saving me from hell and most of all from my own sins.
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Isaiah 53:5, "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed."
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/8/2008 1:22:14 PM
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Mannamuncher
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Without hell, nobody would believe in God ?
----------rather-----------
Without God, nobody believes in hell...
We are to fear God, not hell.
Jesus did not threaten anyone other
than hypocritical Pharisees with punishment !
God draws us with kindness, not "if you don't".
Matthew 10:28 (King James Version)
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Fear God, not hell...think about it !!!
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/8/2008 2:21:09 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Without hell, nobody would believe in God ?
----------rather-----------
Without God, nobody believes in hell...
We are to fear God, not hell.
Jesus did not threaten anyone other
than hypocritical Pharisees with punishment !
God draws us with kindness, not "if you don't".
Matthew 10:28 (King James Version)
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Fear God, not hell...think about it !!!
Without Jesus, you're bread that's going in the toaster. I'm not afraid of hell; Jesus promised me a better place. My siblings aren't afraid of hell; they don't even believe in it.
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/8/2008 2:51:30 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6717
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
We are to fear God, not hell.
Jesus did not threaten anyone other
than hypocritical Pharisees with punishment !
God draws us with kindness, not "if you don't".
Well, as I pointed out, Jesus said, "‘He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him"; this presumably applies to everyone, not just the Pharisees.
The kindness with which Christ draws, and the wrath of God which looms for those who refuse such kindness are equally real, and both sides of the same coin. We cannot really separate them.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/8/2008 2:56:32 PM
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BlackCapnHarlock
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
I seriously think that the only reason most people are Christian is so they won't go to hell when they die. Think about it. Without punishment, or Satan or evil, there would'nt be a reason for religon in general. Religon is all about how you live your life, and what happens to you when you die. Is'nt God's love enough? Why can't the joy of God be all you need, not some kind of reward for good behavior? The reason why priests and ministers convert other people to their religon is to save them from going to some spritual inferno of eternal torture. I just feel that if there was no heaven or hell, or reincarnation and karma, or whatever your theory is that people would'nt believe in God. Am I right? Or is God's love enough?
I grapple with this. The last few weeks, the one thing that has avoided me from doing a particular sin was the FEAR OF GOD, GOD'S WRATH, GOD'S CHASTENING.
Not his love for me or my love for him.
That is changing in me. Pray that I change from a guy who isn't sinning and being willing and obedient because he doesn't want GOD to drop the hammer to a guy whom LOVES GOD and doesn't want to sin because GOD is enough.
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Ezekiel 16:6 Eze 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/9/2008 6:25:34 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2055
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BlackCapnHarlock
quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
I seriously think that the only reason most people are Christian is so they won't go to hell when they die. Think about it. Without punishment, or Satan or evil, there would'nt be a reason for religon in general. Religon is all about how you live your life, and what happens to you when you die. Is'nt God's love enough? Why can't the joy of God be all you need, not some kind of reward for good behavior? The reason why priests and ministers convert other people to their religon is to save them from going to some spritual inferno of eternal torture. I just feel that if there was no heaven or hell, or reincarnation and karma, or whatever your theory is that people would'nt believe in God. Am I right? Or is God's love enough?
I grapple with this. The last few weeks, the one thing that has avoided me from doing a particular sin was the FEAR OF GOD, GOD'S WRATH, GOD'S CHASTENING.
Not his love for me or my love for him.
That is changing in me. Pray that I change from a guy who isn't sinning and being willing and obedient because he doesn't want GOD to drop the hammer to a guy whom LOVES GOD and doesn't want to sin because GOD is enough.
But, you ALREADY believed, didn't you ?
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/9/2008 6:40:21 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2055
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Without hell, nobody would believe in God ?
----------rather-----------
Without God, nobody believes in hell...
We are to fear God, not hell.
Jesus did not threaten anyone other
than hypocritical Pharisees with punishment !
God draws us with kindness, not "if you don't".
Matthew 10:28 (King James Version)
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Fear God, not hell...think about it !!!
Without Jesus, you're bread that's going in the toaster. I'm not afraid of hell; Jesus promised me a better place. My siblings aren't afraid of hell; they don't even believe in it.
Amen sister !!!
What if one doesn't believe in hell ?
Why fear what one doesn't believe exists ?
Then it's just an empty threat, isn't it ?
Or, one can believe in hell and still not fear God ?
IOW, I knew hell existed, but so what ?
God MUST BE FEARED; punishment is vain.
Is the threat of hell even effective ?
Shouldn't it scare people into Christ ?
Again, this is not the way God works !
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/9/2008 6:58:24 PM
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called2valor
Posts: 73
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From: Minnesota
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I never really worried about Hell too much in my life. Whether I went to Heaven or Hell or any sort of afterlife disposition has always been of secondary importance to me.
My coming to faith in Jesus was a search for truth, not an escape from death or punishment.
Fear of Hell isn't necessary a bad thing, though, because just like a father tells his children the natural consequences of doing wrong, so does God, as a loving father, tell us what our own will leads to.
Personally, I think Job got it right when all the calamities came upon him and his family and in his sorrow and pure faith he boldly proclaimed: "13 Hold your peace, let me alone, that I may speak, and let come on me what will. 14 Wherefore do I take my flesh in my teeth, and put my life in mine hand? 15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. 16 He also shall be my salvation: for an hypocrite shall not come before him."
Jesus said "those that LOVE me follow my commandments".... not those that fear Him.
We should reverence God for who He is, not because we want to save our own skins.
Peace
< Message edited by called2valor -- 4/9/2008 7:04:36 PM >
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I am the Mayan king Great Jaguar Platypus Bite-Bite!!! Fear me!!! *swims around menacingly*
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