RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (Full Version)

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Little_1 -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (4/5/2008 2:26:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Hi Little 1...

Your testimony is one that few ever realize. If you belong to God, He is always in your life; He is always there caring and providing for your spiritual welfare and physical needs. But if we continue to attempt to manage our own lives it conflicts with the plans of God. We just muddle it all up, the same as Abraham did with Ishmael…he just couldn’t wait for a child and tried to accomplish Gods plan by himself.

Once we totally give our life to God and trust in His grace our life changes completely…no fear, worry and He will provide for all our needs. We have to learn to be aware and see God working in our lives, to many people think their good fortune is just luck or their own endeavour. It almost seems to be a blindness caused by God and only the strength of our faith allows us to see the true nature of God in our lives.

I can just testify that totally giving myself to His grace has completely changed my life.

Bob


I am reminded of Abraham when he went up the mountain with Isaac knowing full well that God had asked him to offer his son as a living sacrifice. Twice Abraham referred to returning with Isaac however (Gen 22: 5 and Gen 22:8) and this was not Abraham being presumptuous. He remembered God's word to him saying that He was going to make Isaac a great nation years before. Abraham must have wondered what on earth God was doing in their lives at this point but I believe that he held tightly to God's previous promise despite this strange and seemingly contradictory request.

Likewise, I don't know what God is doing in our lives and it seems a very strange and also seems to contradict His promise which I will share about:

A few years ago, I remember walking home from work. I was going through a terrible time at work (bullying) and was in tears and upset. I remember the Lord burning the text "For I know the plans I have for you; plans to prosper you and not to harm you; to give you a future and a hope." Well at that point in time it sure did not 'feel' like I was being prospered; however, I have always held to this text ever since. I have since come through a cancer scare, the accidental death of my uncle (who was like a father to me after my own father died suddenly when I was in my early teens) and another personal family situation and all the time held on to this verse. I know the Lord spoke this and can remember it clearly and I believe that no matter what does happen, God is working out His plan to spiritually prosper us (which is real and true prosperity).



bob97 -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (4/5/2008 10:46:30 AM)

Little_1... the best roadmap that we have about God's plan is looking at the past and what went right.

I firmly believe that we really do not start to really prosper until we make that comment to totally give our selves to Him and live our life as such. In fact until we do this, God will nudge us with things we don't like, just to remind us. Nothing unto death but the more we resist the more unpleasant the reminders will be.

In your testimony, the unpleasant things were that God wanted you to be aware of and turn to Him.

bob



Little_1 -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (4/7/2008 2:04:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Little_1... the best roadmap that we have about God's plan is looking at the past and what went right.

I firmly believe that we really do not start to really prosper until we make that comment to totally give our selves to Him and live our life as such. In fact until we do this, God will nudge us with things we don't like, just to remind us. Nothing unto death but the more we resist the more unpleasant the reminders will be.

In your testimony, the unpleasant things were that God wanted you to be aware of and turn to Him.

bob


That is sometimes the case Bob and I totally agree. However, we need to be careful not to assume that the unpleasant things that come into our lives are always due to some kind of disobedience.

Job was living a life pleasing to God - in fact he was living his life in the centre of God's will and yet he went through terrible affliction and loss on a tremendous scale but not because he had done something wrong - far from it.

The devil was envious that Job loved God as he did and in a conversation with God told God that he thought that if Job lost possessions, family, health, etc one by one that he would end up turning his back on God.

The devil made out that Job was only following God because of the great blessings in his life given by God. However, to cut a long story short, despite the tremendous loss experienced by Job - he did not lose his faith in God which proved the devil's theory wrong!

What a witness this was to the heavenly hosts and you and I today also. Job held onto his rest in God and God brought him through.

Personally, I had just surrendered my life to God a few days previous to this awful tragedy and I believe at this time that I too was bang in the centre of God's will at the time of this happening - I would never have coped had I not been. Now don't get me wrong, as with Job, I too have a lot of precious lessons I have to learn in this situation and my question to God is still "what do You want to teach me in all of this Lord?"

I just want to mention this because it is important that anyone going through a difficult time reading this to realise that whilst their situation may be due to something in their lives that is displeasing to the Lord - that this is not necessarily always the case as we can suffer even in the centre of God's will.

I believe if we want to get closer to the Lord, i.e. "That I may know Him and the fellowship of His sufferings......" then suffering is something that we may need to experience in order for this to be truly realised in our lives and testimony.



cwb -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (4/9/2008 8:30:05 PM)

No; a Christian does not deny the power of the Holy Spirit.

NON-Christians? Don't know, don't concern myself with that too much. Christians? No.



4ChristisLove -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (4/16/2008 1:36:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Little_1

Philippians 3:1-11

1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.


Paul is already a Christian when he recorded verse 10. Paul ever presses on to strengthen and build his relationship with the Lord by the power of the Holy Spirit - that is his testimony.

The 'power of the resurrection' is what helps us to live out the life that Jesus wants us to live - the very same power that raised Jesus from the dead is the only means by which we can truly live for Jesus - it is a life surrendered (willingly given) to the Holy Spirit to work with for God's glory. Not I who lives but Christ who lives in me.

From what I can see in the churches today, Christians seem to be denying the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit which raised Christ from the dead by trying to follow Jesus' teachings in their own strength rather than living for Him in the power of the Holy Spirit which is available to all those who ask. The Galatians fell into the very same trap:

Galatians 3:2-4

2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The results spell the same for the much of the church of Christ today as it did for the Galatians Christian church many centuries ago - defeat, disillusionment and powerless testimonies! [&o]

Christians should not be afraid to surrender to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our friend and Counsellor - He wants to grow us up into a deeper and more meaningful relationship with the Lord. Anything less than what Paul here mentions (verse 10) is merely existing and not real, abundant life as God intends for us.

Does anyone else agree? Is the Holy Spirit resurrection power a reality in our lives? Is the Holy Spirit a reality in your life? If not - He can be - He is available to anyone who asks.


- Does anyone else agree?


Yes Yes Yes! I'm just seeing that in another thread now. [;)] I think you know where. :)



gmc4Jesus -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (4/23/2008 1:05:18 AM)

Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit?

Overall, I would say we fall somewhere into three groups.

1. All have the Holy Spirit, but not all are aware of it and don't know how to tap the Holy Spirit's power and purpose.
2. Many are beginning to realize that the Holy Spirit sets them apart from the world and gives them power to live for God that they did not have before coming to Christ.
3. The last group is comprised of those who realize that they have the Holy Spirit in them and are using His power to resist temptation, live victoriously over sin and use their special talents and gifts for the glory of God.

When we received Christ, we received the Holy Spirit, His power to say "NO" to temptation and live a victorious life. Cf. Acts 2:38; Romans 6:1-23. The problem is that many do not realize that they have the Holy Spirit or what His purpose is in their lives.

In John 14:26, Jesus said the Holy Spirit will teach us what God desires of us.

John 16:5-14 says, “Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilta in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

The Holy Spirit makes us aware of temptation so we can have the Spirit's power to say "NO" to temptation. The Holy Spirit guides us to greater understanding of God's Word so we can live it in our lives and impart it's truths to the lives of others. The Holy Spirit points us to Jesus as the Son of God who saves us from our sin.

Notice that the Holy Spirit no where draws us to focus on Him, but points us to Jesus. There are some Christians who, though well intended, place to much emphasis on having some sort of sign as evidence that they have the Holy Spirit in them, but they aren't focusing on who Jesus is and how they can become more like Him. They are missing what the Holy Spirit is really about.

I pray that you all realize that when you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit took up resicence in you (along with the Father and the Son). The Spirit's purpose is to help you mature as a Christian by pointing you to Jesus, helping you recognize temptation and refrain from sin and grow to maturity in your walk with God.

God bless you as the Spirit empowers you to greater levels of maturity!



drmark -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (4/23/2008 11:59:17 AM)

quote:

1. All have the Holy Spirit, but not all are aware of it and don't know how to tap the Holy Spirit's power and purpose.
2. Many are beginning to realize that the Holy Spirit sets them apart from the world and gives them power to live for God that they did not have before coming to Christ.
3. The last group is comprised of those who realize that they have the Holy Spirit in them and are using His power to resist temptation, live victoriously over sin and use their special talents and gifts for the glory of God.
This is not a bad description, gmc4, but I would add an important note. While it's true that all Christians have the Holy Spirit (group 1), there are Christians who have not given all of themselves to the Holy Spirit. In my doctrinal tradition, this is called entire sanctification. When, by God's grace, we are entirely sanctified, then the power of the Holy Spirit is free to work in all aspects of our lives to accomplish those wonderful outcomes you listed in group 3.



Bluethread -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (4/23/2008 12:12:13 PM)

Sorry, drmark but I doubt that. That is this idea of being "entirely sanctified". As Yeshayahu(Isaiah) says, none is rightious, no not one.



drmark -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (4/23/2008 12:29:07 PM)

quote:

Sorry, drmark but I doubt that. That is this idea of being "entirely sanctified". As Yeshayahu(Isaiah) says, none is rightious, no not one.
Sorry, Bluethread, but I'll take God's Word over your doubt on this one! Try Ezek 20:12, Rom 5:19, Hebr 2:11, 10:14, 12:23 and 2 Tim 2:21. We cannot be righteous on our own but God can make all of us righteous, by His grace and power!



Bluethread -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (4/23/2008 1:04:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Sorry, drmark but I doubt that. That is this idea of being "entirely sanctified". As Yeshayahu(Isaiah) says, none is rightious, no not one.
Sorry, Bluethread, but I'll take God's Word over your doubt on this one! Try Ezek 20:12, Rom 5:19, Hebr 2:11, 10:14, 12:23 and 2 Tim 2:21. We cannot be righteous on our own but God can make all of us righteous, by His grace and power!


Eze 20:10 Therefore I led them out of Egypt and brought them into the desert. 11 I gave them my decrees and made known to them my laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. 12 Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the Lord made them holy. 13 "'Yet the people of Israel rebelled against me in the desert. They did not follow my decrees but rejected my laws--although the man who obeys them will live by them--and they utterly desecrated my Sabbaths.

I am glad to see that you acknowledge Adonai's appointed times as their purpose is to remind us that we are holy(set apart for a purpose). However, as the son of man(Ezekiel) goes on to tell us we have and continue to desecrate His Sabbaths.

To avoid a diatribe I will post my response to each passage seperately.



ta_mosquito -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (4/23/2008 1:41:04 PM)

MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE

Please keep this on the topic of the OP instead of turning into yet another debate on entire sanctification.

Please visit one of the following threads for current discussions on entire sanctification:

A Christian Stopped Sinning!

So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul and Mind

Hyper-Forgiveness: Real or Imagined

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drmark -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (4/23/2008 2:14:56 PM)

quote:

To avoid a diatribe I will post my response to each passage seperately.
There's really nothing to respond to, Bluethread. The Bible states God makes some holy, righteous, pure, perfect, etc. Those that are not made holy generally are ignoring, misunderstanding, or outright denying the power of the Holy Spirit, just as gmc4 described above.



Bluethread -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (4/23/2008 3:54:30 PM)

I have moved the discussion of complete sanctification to "Jesus as a role model" where it might be more on topic. Whether that is possible or not, I acknowledge that nothing is impossible for Adonai? We do need to be open to any act of Ruach Ha Adonai(Spirit of the Lord) as long as it is consistant with Ha Torah Adonai(The Character of the Lord).



drmark -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (4/23/2008 4:26:54 PM)

quote:

We do need to be open to any act of Ruach Ha Adonai(Spirit of the Lord) as long as it is consistant with Ha Torah Adonai(The Character of the Lord).
There is NO act of the Holy Spirit that could ever be inconsistent with the Character of Christ! I look forward to checking out the new thread - thanks, Bt.



Bluethread -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (4/24/2008 12:24:24 PM)

That is why we need to test what we may presume to be the power of Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit) so that we can determine if it is indeed of Ruach Ha Chedosh or some other spirit.



gmc4Jesus -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (4/24/2008 5:07:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus

Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit?

Overall, I would say we fall somewhere into three groups.

1. All have the Holy Spirit, but not all are aware of it and don't know how to tap the Holy Spirit's power and purpose.
2. Many are beginning to realize that the Holy Spirit sets them apart from the world and gives them power to live for God that they did not have before coming to Christ.
3. The last group is comprised of those who realize that they have the Holy Spirit in them and are using His power to resist temptation, live victoriously over sin and use their special talents and gifts for the glory of God.

When we received Christ, we received the Holy Spirit, His power to say "NO" to temptation and live a victorious life. Cf. Acts 2:38; Romans 6:1-23. The problem is that many do not realize that they have the Holy Spirit or what His purpose is in their lives.



I have read the comments and other posts from my original statement and I will respond to expand on what I originally said.

1. When we become Christians, we receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. However, until we realize that (step 2) we may not act like it. This has nothing to do with the manifestations that are a common thought of charismatic groups, but a gift from God as Jesus promised in John 14-16. This is something that God says, not something that you do. The only "say so" that we have in this is whether we choose to believe in Jesus as our Lord and continue to walk in that belief. (If we choose to rebel and fall away, God no longer forces Himself on us, but that is another discussion).

2. As we mature in Christ, we come to the point of realization that the Holy Spirit is in us and that God has made us righteous. This is not something we did, earned, can pay for or even deserve, but something God does for us because He chose to do so. This does not mean that we can't rebel, walk away from God's saving grace or return to sin if we so choose (that is probably a topic for another discussion on another thread). It is simply a point of recognition and realization that we are set apart, sanctified, holy, saints (all synonyms). It is at this point that we become more conscious of trying to act like we claim to believe.

3. When we take our sanctification, sainthood, holiness, etc. personally, then we work more consciously at recognizing temptation and seeking to refrain from sin and live like a Godly person. This is when we have reached a level of spiritual maturity that is reflected by our Christ-like behavior.

All new Christians start out at level 1. Some take years to realize that God says that this person is a saint. Once they realize it and take it seriously to heart, they will start to be more conscious of their behavior and avoid things that are unChristian and live more like the saint that they are (as declared by God).



pmilst -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (5/7/2008 6:16:39 AM)

When we minimize or disavow the Gifts of the Spirit then the Body of Christ has no arms and legs to go with Christ the Head. The church becomes a redundant, powerless institution with only human febile works.

When the church diminishes or disavows the ability of the Spirit to build character in our lives, then love , joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness .... become a distant drum beat and the church loses its testimony and influence as the "salt of the earth".

Oh to be Holy Spirit oriented. Then like the Apostle Paul I can be humanly weak, but carry great inner spiritual strengh derived from the Spirit of God.



fyibiz4u -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (5/12/2008 1:10:53 PM)

The key to answer the question in the original post: “Is the Holy Spirit resurrection power a reality in our lives?” is found in verses 8 & 9 of the scriptures used in the original post.
Vs. 8 .........knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: .....
Vs. 9 ........Not having mine own righteousness, which is the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Summed up it can only be answered on an individual basis. To do that we must all ask ourselves; “How is our relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ?” and then examine our truthful answer.

As Borne again Believers (Christians) we all want to be led by the Spirit of God. Our deep desire is not to purposely be led off course by others with wrong teachings or even a wrong spirit. Unfortunately it happens! But is does not have to happen today with all of the scripture availability and sound Christian Bible teachings available to us today. The problem occurs when we rely on someone else other than the Holy Spirit to write verses in our hearts. After a while we receive what man has said about the Word of God rather than finding out what God has said about His Word Himself. We live in our own righteousness, our own knowledge, and our own understanding of His Words and we struggle with really knowing if it is God Speaking to us through our spirit or are we just acting on what we heard someone else say.

You see, if we can not explain it, we are usually afraid of it. That is the reason righteousness which is of God by faith is not seen today, even in so-called Christians. The words, “by faith” is the key here. Living in the righteousness of God demands us to accept the supreme sacrifice paid by God, Jesus Christ His Son, and to walk by that faith in Him. We cannot live and walk by that faith in Him without first knowing Him. We cannot know Him unless we accept who He is and what He has done for us, through faith, and learn to fellowship with Him on a constant basis; for we really do not know anyone unless we spend time with them. The more time spent the more we know about that person. We might be acquainted with them but we do not get to know them until we have had life long fellowship with them.
It is the same way with knowing the Spirit of God. Unless we get to know the character and nature of God it is hard to recognize His leading by His Spirit. Without faith it is impossible to please Him.



gmc4Jesus -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (5/12/2008 1:48:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fyibiz4u
Summed up it can only be answered on an individual basis. To do that we must all ask ourselves; “How is our relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ?” and then examine our truthful answer.

As Borne again Believers (Christians) we all want to be led by the Spirit of God.


I believe that if we would focus more on our relationship with Jesus Christ, the Fruit of the Spirit would be strong in us and His Power would help us live with little or no sin in our lives. That power will help us witness to others as they see the Fruit in our lives.

Oh that we can persuade more Christians to invest some serious time and emphasis in getting to know Jesus.



JimboFletch -> RE: Are Christians denying the power of the Holy Spirit? (5/12/2008 1:56:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus

quote:

ORIGINAL: fyibiz4u
Summed up it can only be answered on an individual basis. To do that we must all ask ourselves; “How is our relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ?” and then examine our truthful answer.

As Borne again Believers (Christians) we all want to be led by the Spirit of God.


I believe that if we would focus more on our relationship with Jesus Christ, the Fruit of the Spirit would be strong in us and His Power would help us live with little or no sin in our lives. That power will help us witness to others as they see the Fruit in our lives.

Oh that we can persuade more Christians to invest some serious time and emphasis in getting to know Jesus.

AMEN and WELL SAID!!!

Anytime the Holy Spirit is given much attention it is a red flag that He isn't in it, since His ministry in the Church age is to glorify Christ Jesus, not bring attention to himself.



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