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[Poll]
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Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited?
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Total Votes : 64
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(last vote on : 4/24/2008 5:00:34 PM)
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 11:00:28 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 547
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: vixir
Sorry, I'm still not getting it. Maybe I'll do some research for a more clear understanding.
Actually, that is an excellent idea. As you have seen, many people form ideas of the pope, not based on actual research, but based on myths that have developed over time. If they hear something that sounds good, they accept it hook, line and sinker. Like the idea that the Vatican is rich because they are out exploiting poor people. You see lots of accusations, but zero in the way of actual facts.
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 12:34:30 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1510
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
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I'm disappointed that President Bush, a born again believer in Jesus Christ, would go out of his way to meet with the leader of the largest child exploitation ring in the world.
Not to mention someone that twists the holy Bible to fit into his passed down man-made myths and traditions.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 12:53:21 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
I'm disappointed that President Bush, a born again believer in Jesus Christ, would go out of his way to meet with the leader of the largest child exploitation ring in the world.
Not to mention someone that twists the holy Bible to fit into his passed down man-made myths and traditions.
Mr. Bush hasn't met a religion he didn't like... He declares Islam a religion a peace so it shouldn't be a surprise he welcomes the filth from the Vatican with open arms... In fact like the pope Mr Bush believes they all worship the same god... Strange times we are in...
John
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 1:06:58 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
Joined: 10/1/2007
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Post #99 strikes again. We're no better than the Sunnis and Shiites.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 1:48:47 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2384
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Primarily, yes. I don't have specific numbers. All I know is "when the coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs."
At least you are honest enough to admit that you base your beliefs on unsubstantiated claims. Is your quote from an official Vatican document? Or does it come from someone who has an axe to grind?
Johann Tetzel was the one who was known for saying that.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 1:57:29 PM
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rnershigh
Posts: 1226
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: somewhere over the rainbow
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Well, the pope is finally here in DC. They were talking about it on the local news last night, interviewing people. I just don't get the big deal about it myself, but I suppose it's like any other celebrity or famous person, gets a lot of air time when they come into town.
_____________________________
O Grave! where is thy Victory?
O Death! where is thy Sting?
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 1:59:22 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 547
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
Johann Tetzel was the one who was known for saying that.
Of course, he died in 1519. I think it is quite telling that when you accuse the Vatican of making money off the backs of poor people, the best that you can come up with is an alleged quote from someone who died almost 500 years ago.
Of course, if you are really interested in the truth, rather than just looking for something that tickles your ears, perhaps you need to investigate further. Consider the following:
quote:
History presents few characters that have suffered more senseless misrepresentation, even bald caricature, than Tetzel. "Even while he lived stories which contained an element of legend gathered around his name, until at last, in the minds of the uncritical Protestant historians, he became the typical indulgence-monger, upon whom any well-worn anecdote might be fathered" (Beard, "Martin Luther", London, 1889, 210). For a critical scholarly study which shows him in a proper perspective, he had to wait the researches of our own time, mainly at the hands of Dr. Nicholas Paulus, who is closely followed in this article. In the first place, his teaching regarding the indulgences for the living was correct. The charge that the forgiveness of sins was sold for money regardless of contrition or that absolution for sins to be committed in the future could be purchased is baseless. An indulgence, he writes, can be applied only "to the pains of sin which are confessed and for which there is contrition". "No one", he furthermore adds, "secures an indulgence unless he have true contrition". The confessional letters (confessionalia) could of course be obtained for a mere pecuniary consideration without demanding contrition. But such document did not secure an indulgence. It was simply a permit to select a proper confessor, who only after a contrite confession would absolve from sin and reserved cases, and who possessed at the same time facilities to impart the plenary indulgence (Paulus, "Johann Tetzel", 103).
As much cannot be said about his teaching regarding indulgences for the dead. The couplet attributed to him --
As soon as the gold in the casket rings
The rescued soul to heaven springs,
like that attributed to Luther,
Who loves not wine and wife and song
Remains a fool his life long;
though verbally spurious, can in both instances be in substance unfailingly traced to the writings of their respective authors. By Tetzel they are substantially acknowledged in his Frankfort theses. Here he accepted the mere school opinion of a few obscure writers, which overstepped the contents of papal indulgence Bulls. This opinion found no recognition but actual condemnation at the hands of authoritative writers, and was rejected in explicit terms by Cardinal Cajetan as late as 1517-19. By the teaching he laid himself open to just censure and reproach. To condition a plenary indulgence for the dead on the mere gift of money, without contrition on the part of the giver, was as repugnant to the teaching of the Church, as it violated every principle of elementary justice. "Preachers act in the name of the Church", writes Cardinal Cajetan, "so long as they teach the doctrines of Christ and the Church; but if they teach, guided by their own minds and arbitrariness of will, things of which they are ignorant, they cannot pass as representatives of the Church; it need not be wondered at that they go astray" (Paulus, "Johann Tetzel", 165). It was this deviation from the correct teaching of the Church and the obtrusive and disgraceful injection of the treasury chest, that led to abuses and scandals reprobated by such contemporaries as Cochlæus, Emser, and Duke George (Paulus, op. cit., 117-18). "Grave abuses arose; the attitude of the preachers, the manner of offering and publishing the indulgences aroused many scandals; above all, Tetzel is in no way to be exonerated" (Janssen-Pastor, "Geschichte des deutsch. Volkes", 18th ed., Freiburg, II, 84).
If you want to learn the truth, I would direct you to the following website:
Johann Tetzel
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 2:10:33 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2384
Joined: 5/16/2005
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Goodness, you sure can take a little comment and take it to the extreme. Don't get your knickers in a twist.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 2:54:59 PM
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bekalc
Posts: 214
Joined: 5/3/2005
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quote:
Oh, I wont be quiet. The vatican receives money from poor parrishes all over the world, all the time. They have sold indulgences to the poor for centuries. They have become wealthy off backs of the poor.
Where do you think they get all their money? How could anyone justify the selling of indulgences to anyone? When the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs... yeah... right.
In 1994, an audit listed:- 1,483 billion lire in assets [About $848 million]: -- 732 billion lire [about $419 million] in liabilities (in the"Consolidated Financial Statements of the Holy See" (410 billion in cash, 479 billion in stocks and bonds, 29 billion in gold, and 470billion in fixed assets - investments and real-estate) . 269 billionlire are in deposits and accounts of Vatican entities, 96 billion foremployees' severance indemnities and 262 billion at the value ofpensions to present employees;- 750 billion are in net assets [$430 million].
What possible reason can a "so called" church have for having this kind of wealth? What is the reason for the church anyway?????
Please... gimme a break.
Plus this "so called" "holy father"... (again, gimme a break) dissed all protestants last year by saying that protestant pastors have no standing to offer communion..?? doesn't that mean, in his opinion, protestants are not saved?
I wish the pope would stay home. I am offended by him and offended that President Bush would honor this man by going to the airport to meet him... that is an embarassment. The pope deserves no such honor.
I believe the last pope was actually a Christian, not sure about this one.
How do you know how much money your Church has? I'm really curious about this one...Does your church question people's wealth to make sure that they aren't getting money from the poor.
What about you, do you attend one of those churches with gymns and coffee shops etc... And what about all those fancy buildings...
Yes, the Catholic Church has a lot of assests and money, but we also have things like Universities, schools and hospitals, tons of charitable organizations etc.. Things which make it quite wise to save up money, if the Church wants to be well responsible.
As for a lot of our "assests" well some of those real estate assests involve things like Churches, schools and hospitals. I'm sure that the Catholic Church could get a lot of money if they sold off St Patricks in Chicago which is located on the loop, prime property surely, but well what about all the ministry that comes from that particular church.
Those buildings etc doesn't just belong to the Pope, but rather they belong to all the Church faithful. (Including those poor people half way around the world you just mentioned)
Also a lot of our Cathedrals etc, were build for centuries by people of faith, who spent their time, talent and effort to build a place to worship God. I think you need to look at the Old Testament and see what God required out of the Temple. God wanted "an Ark of Pure Gold" God is entitled to the very best, we have to offer.
And Catholic concept of worship is build on the idea of art and beauty. That we can use our ability to create as a means to worship God, and that beauty can lift people's eyes to contemplate God. In fact, for most of the Catholic Church's existence most of the people couldn't even read.. So you know how the Church was able to evangelize them, to teach them the truths about the faith. Through art. Through Stain Glass Windows, through Statues. Through Icons. They were able to convey the Truth through people's eyes. This art is a gift that still enspires awe out of people and still can inspire people to their knees.
So what should the Church do with all this art, that we have collected for 2,000 years, with the Churches that have been built by people's hands, should we just hand it over. To people who may not even treat the art right? Are all Art Museums foolish and worthless efforts to you...
And the thing of the matter too is that the Catholic Church allows people to see this art. The Vatican is open for all to come into, of any faith, or none faith. They also send their art on exhibitions. And the point is that it still inspires people to Christ.
In fact this Current pope said that "the Greatest apologetic tools of the Catholic Church are our Saints and are Art."
< Message edited by bekalc -- 4/16/2008 3:10:46 PM >
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 3:03:53 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 547
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Goodness, you sure can take a little comment and take it to the extreme. Don't get your knickers in a twist.
In other words, truth is irrelevant? You make a claim, therefore we should automatically believe it, without considering whether or not it is true?
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 3:08:26 PM
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bekalc
Posts: 214
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
bekalc,
While you are at it, mention the time when pope said the muslims worship the same god. He's kewl! 
The pope may have said that I don't know.... But the Pope has also been critical of Islam and I think may have also said the Muslims "claim they worship the same God" even if they do worship "the Same God" their concept of God is misconscrued.
Besides don't believe that every Muslim is destined for Hell. (But that's a long explanation) But we do believe Islam is dangerous. Just as any religion that has Untruth's is dangerous...
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 3:45:39 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
While you are at it, mention the time when pope said the muslims worship the same god. He's kewl!
Don't Christians believe that we worship the same God as the Jewish people even though they don't believe in Christ or the Trinity. When you take it in this context what the Pope said makes more sense.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 4:03:25 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
While you are at it, mention the time when pope said the muslims worship the same god. He's kewl!
Don't Christians believe that we worship the same God as the Jewish people even though they don't believe in Christ or the Trinity. When you take it in this context what the Pope said makes more sense.
If you deny Jesus, you deny God. So to answer your question: no.
Romans 11:28 In relation to the Good News, the Jews are God's enemies for your sakes; but in relation to God's choice they [the Jews] are dearly loved for the sake of their forefathers. Looks like Jews have a grandfather clause!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 4:40:11 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
So the Jews who follow the Torah will be in heaven? No need for Jesus for them? Do not misunderstand. I am in no way against the Jews or any other people. I just refuse to agree that something is other than what it is.
I'll use Jesus' own words to answer this.
Matthew 5:17
"Do not think I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not to abolish them, but to fulfill them."
Also not all Christians will get a ticket to heaven. Matthew 7:21-23
"None of those who cry out, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kindom of God but only the one who does the will of the Father in heaven. When that day comes, many will plead with me, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? Have we not exorcised demons by its power? Did we not do many miracles in your name as well? Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Out of my sight, evildoers'."
Following the law and the prophets means following God by following the Great Commandment: loving God and loving neighbor as yourself. And remember, the neighbor Jesus used in the parable when asked "Who is my neighbor?" was the heathen, apostate, Samaritan!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 4:42:04 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2451
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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stella,
I do agree with what you are saying, but from the direction mapachito was coming, it does not equate. It was a deliberate attempt to excuse the pope's inability and/or unwillingness to defend Christianity.
mapachito,
Let me clarify my earlier statement. The Jews are God's people. They worship God; the muslims don't. Now, I said no because the pope says that since the muslims pray to the God of Abraham, they pray to the same God. That is an encompassing judgment that disallows the NT, and it is devastating to the salvation of anyone who hears that and accepts it as truth. The Jews pray to the God of Abraham as well, but they have not added a new bible to it like the muslims have. I should have answered in a different way rather than just saying: no. Sorry.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 5:04:32 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
mapachito,
Let me clarify my earlier statement. The Jews are God's people. They worship God; the muslims don't. Now, I said no because the pope says that since the muslims pray to the God of Abraham, they pray to the same God. That is an encompassing judgment that disallows the NT, and it is devastating to the salvation of anyone who hears that and accepts it as truth. The Jews pray to the God of Abraham as well, but they have not added a new bible to it like the muslims have. I should have answered in a different way rather than just saying: no. Sorry.
Now I can concur with that statement. And hey, we're all brothers in the same Lord just having a discussion so no harm, no foul. God bless! I know I am way too blunt and sarcastic at times.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 6:38:58 PM
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bekalc
Posts: 214
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
So the Jews who follow the Torah will be in heaven? No need for Jesus for them? Do not misunderstand. I am in no way against the Jews or any other people. I just refuse to agree that something is other than what it is.
That's not what Catholicism teaches....Of course Christ is needed without Christ nobody would be saved.
But Catholics don't believe that God is going to send someone to Hell because they never understood the truth about Christ and/or never heard about Christ are going to go to heaven. To explain are point of view
quote:
All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, 6 while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus. Romans 2:50-16 American Bible Translation
What we believe basically is that God is out to save all mankind, even those who don't know his name, and maybe are let's say Muslim and don't know the truth about Christ.. God is still out to save them, and He wrote his law until their Hearts and His grace is there for them. Basically we would consider these people "anonymous Christians"... We believe these are people that if they knew really knew that God required them to be Catholic, they would be Catholic...But they don't know that and God holds them responsible for what they know.
Now does this mean that it's a-okay to be a Muslim no. Because there is a lot of lies missed into the "little truth that it has" and these lies lead people a-stray and yes to Hell. So of course Truth matters and it's important tell people the Truth. So yes, God can save a Muslim, and God can save (hey a Protestant too) but it is a lot easier for a Protestant to go to heaven than a Muslim, and it is all the more easier for a Catholic to go to Heaven the a Protestant. Because we Catholics have the entire Truth, and all of the vehicles of God's grace that he meant to give His People.
But God is bigger than You and Me, and He came to save you and Me. So as for Islam, Islam does teach that the God of Abraham is the True God. And so according to our Catechism, it says the Muslims profess "that they Worship the God of Abraham" (Notice that's what the Muslims profess, and in one sense they are right. Abraham worshipped the One true God.) It's important to note that it's not known how much of True Christianity Mohammed actually knew. So to suggest that the Muslims just openly "rejected Christ when Islam was created, isn't necessarily the case."
For example, do you know that Muslism (and I believe the Qu'ran talks about this) think that the Trinity refers to God the Father, Jesus, and Mary. Do you also know that they think we believe that God came down from heaven, Had Sex with Mary, and that's how we Got Jesus. So when they are rejecting Jesus as "God's Son"and the Trinity, these are the things they are rejecting. When you look at what THEY say they are rejecting, can you really say that they are purposely rejecting the Truth?
All the Pope is trying to do is point to the commonalities that Islam and Christianity share, but he has also pointd to the differences as well. For example a big Muslim group in the United States has refused to meet with the Pope because of some of the comments th Pope has made about Islam. Also the Pope openly baptized a prominent Muslim convert this Easter...
Many Jewish Groups are angry because th Pope has allowed prayer that calls for Jewish Conversion to Catholicism. So in many ways, Catholics can't really win with people. Many really strict Evangelicals don't like us because we refuse to Condemn all non Christians unequivicably, and then there are the non Christian groups who don't like us because we refuse to tell them that their religions are okay. Talk about being unpopular either way, but I'd rather stick on this path, then on to the left or the right. (One side that argues Truth is unimportant, and another that puts a box on God's grace)
It's funny but so many Protestants say that we Catholics don't understand God's Grace. But I think this is an area where man Protestants don't get and don't understand how big God's grace is. I wonder if it's so hard for you guys to understand because there is so much emphasis in your Tradition on belief (it's by faith that you are saved) and that's why you have difficulty understanding what we Catholics are talking about...So the fundamental difference in our divide is what makes it so much easier for Us Catholics to understand how God can offer Grace to a non professing Christian. But I guess I'll put it to you this way. Do you really truly think that God is going to reject the Muslim, the sincere Muslim who calls out to God every day, and tries their best to follow God, and acknowledge him, and their lives reflect a knowledge of God by their actions. Because there are righteous Muslims out there. Do you really truly believe God would really reject that person.
< Message edited by bekalc -- 4/16/2008 7:12:55 PM >
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 9:44:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
stella,
I do agree with what you are saying, but from the direction mapachito was coming, it does not equate. It was a deliberate attempt to excuse the pope's inability and/or unwillingness to defend Christianity.
mapachito,
Let me clarify my earlier statement. The Jews are God's people. They worship God; the muslims don't. Now, I said no because the pope says that since the muslims pray to the God of Abraham, they pray to the same God. That is an encompassing judgment that disallows the NT, and it is devastating to the salvation of anyone who hears that and accepts it as truth. The Jews pray to the God of Abraham as well, but they have not added a new bible to it like the muslims have. I should have answered in a different way rather than just saying: no. Sorry.
Prayer is by the Holy Spirit(Romans 8:26).... So are you willing to say that they Holy Spirit prays for them around Jesus Christ and not in the truth, and yet it's still to God?
The bible says(Romans 1:20) creation alone speaks to the truth of God and no one has an excuse...
As well...
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John
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