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Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited?
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(last vote on : 4/24/2008 5:00:34 PM)
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 9:52:39 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bekalc
It's funny but so many Protestants say that we Catholics don't understand God's Grace. But I think this is an area where man Protestants don't get and don't understand how big God's grace is. I wonder if it's so hard for you guys to understand because there is so much emphasis in your Tradition on belief (it's by faith that you are saved) and that's why you have difficulty understanding what we Catholics are talking about...So the fundamental difference in our divide is what makes it so much easier for Us Catholics to understand how God can offer Grace to a non professing Christian. But I guess I'll put it to you this way. Do you really truly think that God is going to reject the Muslim, the sincere Muslim who calls out to God every day, and tries their best to follow God, and acknowledge him, and their lives reflect a knowledge of God by their actions. Because there are righteous Muslims out there. Do you really truly believe God would really reject that person.
Yes... Because the bible says the following...
2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
As for the "good deeds" of those who deny Christ...
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
John
2 John 1:9-10 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 4/16/2008 10:02:36 PM >
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 9:54:51 PM
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EverLearning
Posts: 1287
Joined: 5/25/2005
Status: offline
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I for one am disheartened that the Pope came and not because he is Catholic, not because he is the pope. I am disheartened by his visit because it has brought out in "christians" the reason that it took me so long to come to the Church after my absense. In my days in the desert of faith I looked at these "Christians" that claimed to be extending their love even to an unsaved sinner such as i was and i knew it to be a bunch of lies because these people can't even extend love to other Christians because they have gotten wrapped up in a big doctrinal game of "I know you are but what am I". I know for a fact that nothing is more damaging to attracting the poor lost souls of the world than to let them see us fighting and being that they are looking in from the outside, unblemished by the doctrinal biases that we all suffer from, they see plainly that each side casts half truths and outright lies. These lies are then retold by the "believers" who accept them as whole truths because they can not bear to be wrong and would rather be right than to heal the rift in the Christian Church. I would ask that we all take a time out and at the very least recognize our biases so that we may be more likely to recognize when we are accepting something as fact regardless of the validity of the claim just to be right but that would be a foolish request since having really looked at it from the outside and sought through numerous churches looking for my home I know without a doubt that for the vast majority of the "christians" out there it isn't about Truth, it is about being right at all costs.
_____________________________
Normal people believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Engineers believe that "if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough
features yet
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 10:13:28 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EverLearning
I for one am disheartened that the Pope came and not because he is Catholic, not because he is the pope. I am disheartened by his visit because it has brought out in "christians" the reason that it took me so long to come to the Church after my absense. In my days in the desert of faith I looked at these "Christians" that claimed to be extending their love even to an unsaved sinner such as i was and i knew it to be a bunch of lies because these people can't even extend love to other Christians because they have gotten wrapped up in a big doctrinal game of "I know you are but what am I". I know for a fact that nothing is more damaging to attracting the poor lost souls of the world than to let them see us fighting and being that they are looking in from the outside, unblemished by the doctrinal biases that we all suffer from, they see plainly that each side casts half truths and outright lies. These lies are then retold by the "believers" who accept them as whole truths because they can not bear to be wrong and would rather be right than to heal the rift in the Christian Church. I would ask that we all take a time out and at the very least recognize our biases so that we may be more likely to recognize when we are accepting something as fact regardless of the validity of the claim just to be right but that would be a foolish request since having really looked at it from the outside and sought through numerous churches looking for my home I know without a doubt that for the vast majority of the "christians" out there it isn't about Truth, it is about being right at all costs.
I for one believe that the Truth is not served by pretending we all agree... If lost souls need to see appeasement of false doctrine in order to be attracted that speaks volumes.
The most damaging thing to lost souls is false doctrine, whatever it may be... Prior to salvation the views of person regarding anything of the Spirit is suspect so it's hard to take your view of Christains(prior to your salvation) without a huge grain of salt... Prior to salvation we hate God, His people, and love ourselves and the things of the world.
John
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 10:23:24 PM
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EverLearning
Posts: 1287
Joined: 5/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I for one believe that the Truth is not served by pretending we all agree... If lost souls need to see appeasement of false doctrine in order to be attracted that speaks volumes.
The most damaging thing to lost souls is false doctrine, whatever it may be... Prior to salvation the views of person regarding anything of the Spirit is suspect so it's hard to take your view of Christains(prior to your salvation) without a huge grain of salt...
Oh that reminds me of the holier than thou attitude that i found so off putting. You have obviously missed my entire point since your attacks continue without you even stepping back to take a look at where your beliefs in false doctrines of the other side come from. You may believe you have all the answers but your attitude is exactly what i spoke of in my previous statement. You cant even show love to fellow Christians becaue you are so dead set on proving how right you are, arrogance is not a Christly virtue.
quote:
Prior to salvation we hate God, His people, and love ourselves and the things of the world.
John
That is not only narrow minded but incorrect, to not be saved is not analogous to hating God. It can be many things, a lack of the true knowledge of God being most common. Those who parrot your views are the most off putting to those seeking meaning in the empty life of the unsaved. The vast majority of the unsaved that I knew and still know harbor no hatred for God nor any excessive love of self or of the "things of the world" and when "christians" insist that to be the case it is yet more evidence (as if any more were needed) that these people do not in fact offer the love of Christ to the unsaved (not even to the saved most times).
_____________________________
Normal people believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Engineers believe that "if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough
features yet
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 10:26:55 PM
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EverLearning
Posts: 1287
Joined: 5/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I for one believe that the Truth is not served by pretending we all agree...
I never said pretend we all agree. I said quite clearly that we need to heal the rift in the Christian Church. You heard pretend to agree when that isn't what i said at all.
_____________________________
Normal people believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Engineers believe that "if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough
features yet
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 10:34:19 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 544
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I for one believe that the Truth is not served by pretending we all agree... If lost souls need to see appeasement of false doctrine in order to be attracted that speaks volumes.
The most damaging thing to lost souls is false doctrine, whatever it may be... Prior to salvation the views of person regarding anything of the Spirit is suspect so it's hard to take your view of Christains(prior to your salvation) without a huge grain of salt... Prior to salvation we hate God, His people, and love ourselves and the things of the world.
John
But of course, truth is not served by spreading falsehood either. There has been much falsehood spread by Christians, even here on this board. For example, one poster claimed that the Vatican is rich, because it exploits poor people. When asked for evidence, the person cannot provide any. People have made many claims, on this thread alone, that are not completely truthful. Most of these are not outright lies, but they represent the fruits of sloppy research, which is still a form of bearing false witness. I like what Haddon Robinson says: If we are to criticize our neighbor, we have to understand what our neighbor is saying and what he actually means. Would the requirement that we love our enemy require at least this much out of us?
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 10:54:59 PM
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bekalc
Posts: 218
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Yes... Because the bible says the following...
2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
As for the "good deeds" of those who deny Christ...
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
John
2 John 1:9-10 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
The point though is that In order to Deny something, you have to know what your denying. You don't know that the Muslim living in Sauda Arabia, knows really anything about Christ. He may know absolutely nothing about Christian doctrine, so how pray tell can He be denying Jesus Christ. Only God knows if someone has denied Him or Not. You don't know that, you can't look or read into People's hearts. Catholic Doctrine is very clear: IF someone knows the truth about Jesus Christ and his Church, and they still refuse to follow Jesus Christ and Join his Church, than there is no Salvation for that Person. But the point is that they have to KNOW about God's demands there, and they have to KNOW the Truth. If they don't know the Truth, than God will hold them responsible for the Truths He has revealed to them.
The point of that matter is that God who reads and knows people's hearts. He will be the one who judges People... It is not for you and I to say that. God Knows who has denied him, God also knows the Heart of the Person (who may not have known his name) but he knows their hearts and intentions. (And God's grace is out there for them in their lives. It's God's desire that NO one perishes. I refuse to believe that God is going to send someone to Hell just because they didn't know the Truth about the Gospel. That's not Justice, and that's not Love. God's not going to give only "those who heard" an opportunity to come to Him. God's desire is for all to Come to Him.)
As for being saved through Christ Amen. We Catholics believe that Salvation is only through Jesus Christ. The point we are making si that a person doesn't necessarily have to Know (on earth) that Jesus Christ saved them in order to be saved. Christ can save the person who never heard His name, He is that powerful, (He's God after all, and He died for everyone, even the Muslim, and even the Person who never heard the name of Jesus Christ. He died for them.
And the Catholic Church holds Truth to a very high standard. It's not saying that the Islamic religion is from God. (No, it's from Satan because it's not the full truth) But God in his Grace can still save the Muslim, that's the point we are making.
< Message edited by bekalc -- 4/16/2008 11:01:55 PM >
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 10:56:06 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EverLearning
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I for one believe that the Truth is not served by pretending we all agree... If lost souls need to see appeasement of false doctrine in order to be attracted that speaks volumes.
The most damaging thing to lost souls is false doctrine, whatever it may be... Prior to salvation the views of person regarding anything of the Spirit is suspect so it's hard to take your view of Christains(prior to your salvation) without a huge grain of salt...
Oh that reminds me of the holier than thou attitude that i found so off putting. You have obviously missed my entire point since your attacks continue without you even stepping back to take a look at where your beliefs in false doctrines of the other side come from. You may believe you have all the answers but your attitude is exactly what i spoke of in my previous statement. You cant even show love to fellow Christians becaue you are so dead set on proving how right you are, arrogance is not a Christly virtue.
I saw your point and it is why I posted what I did... Love is not found in prettending we agree... You can call it whatever you wish but that's the bottom line... You desire unity at the sake of the Truth and that will not bring people to Christ... Love is found in the Truth not prettending to agree...
quote:
That is not only narrow minded but incorrect, to not be saved is not analogous to hating God. It can be many things, a lack of the true knowledge of God being most common. Those who parrot your views are the most off putting to those seeking meaning in the empty life of the unsaved. The vast majority of the unsaved that I knew and still know harbor no hatred for God nor any excessive love of self or of the "things of the world" and when "christians" insist that to be the case it is yet more evidence (as if any more were needed) that these people do not in fact offer the love of Christ to the unsaved (not even to the saved most times).
The bible says otherwise...
People that don't believe are enemies of God... Christ speak of the world hating Him and His people...Do you believe He was only speaking of part of those who don't believe? The bible is quite clear there are two master, and you can only serve one... One is God, and their other is anything other than God...
Your post is great example of the problem... The bible speaks of the conditions of the unbeliever, yet your personal experience trumps the Word...
John
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 10:57:48 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EverLearning
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I for one believe that the Truth is not served by pretending we all agree...
I never said pretend we all agree. I said quite clearly that we need to heal the rift in the Christian Church. You heard pretend to agree when that isn't what i said at all.
Ok.... What's the formula?
John
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 11:00:38 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11589
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
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I am failing to see why a lot of these posts should not be redirected to a one-stop thread....
Can we stay on topic please?
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 11:08:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bekalc
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Yes... Because the bible says the following...
2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
As for the "good deeds" of those who deny Christ...
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
John
2 John 1:9-10 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
The point though is that In order to Deny something, you have to know what your denying. You don't know that the Muslim living in Sauda Arabia, knows really anything about Christ. He may know absolutely nothing about Christian doctrine, so how pray tell can He be denying Jesus Christ. Only God knows if someone has denied Him or Not. You don't know that, you can't look or read into People's hearts. Catholic Doctrine is very clear: IF someone knows the truth about Jesus Christ and his Church, and they still refuse to follow Jesus Christ and Join his Church, than there is no Salvation for that Person. But the point is that they have to KNOW about God's demands there, and they have to KNOW the Truth. If they don't know the Truth, than God will hold them responsible for the Truths He has revealed to them.
The point of that matter is that God who reads and knows people's hearts. He will be the one who judges People... It is not for you and I to say that. God Knows who has denied him, God also knows the Heart of the Person (who may not have known his name) but he knows their hearts and intentions. (And God's grace is out there for them in their lives. It's God's desire that NO one perishes. I refuse to believe that God is going to send someone to Hell just because they didn't know the Truth about the Gospel. That's not Justice, and that's not Love. God's not going to give only "those who heard" an opportunity to come to Him. God's desire is for all to Come to Him.)
As for being saved through Christ Amen. We Catholics believe that Salvation is only through Jesus Christ. The point we are making si that a person doesn't necessarily have to Know (on earth) that Jesus Christ saved them in order to be saved. Christ can save the person who never heard His name, He is that powerful, (He's God after all, and He died for everyone, even the Muslim, and even the Person who never heard the name of Jesus Christ. He died for them.
And the Catholic Church holds Truth to a very high standard. It's not saying that the Islamic religion is from God. (No, it's from Satan because it's not the full truth) But God in his Grace can still save the Muslim, that's the point we are making.
Salvation is through Christ... If a person is saved it through the Holy Spirit by the shed blood of Christ according to the perfect will of God... Christ said one must be born again... He made it point it repeat it... The belief of the Muslim is not a partial stepping stone to the Truth as the Catholic Church like sto portray, but a HUGE stumbling block and a direct denial of the Truth and it will lead millions to eternal death. The bible is rather clear on this matter and it's not I who says, "He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.", The fact that whomever denies Christ is a outward sign that they are not saved, right? You shall know them by their fruits... God can and does save whom He chooses, but they will not get there via a false religion but in spite of it... The Catholic Church is not doing Muslims a favor by cuddling up to their false doctrine...
I need to repeat...
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Mankind is accountable...
John
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 11:14:18 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
I am failing to see why a lot of these posts should not be redirected to a one-stop thread....
Can we stay on topic please?
Yup... Sorry about the last post... Didn't see this until after the fact...
John
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/16/2008 11:43:41 PM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 522
Joined: 4/24/2005
Status: offline
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To help get this thread back on topic I would like to say, as a former Catholic, I am not too excited about Pope Benedict's visit to America. I say this mainly because he strikes me more as an individual fulfilling his role as a head of state, which he is, more so than fulfilling his role as the head of the Catholic Church. However, I do believe that he is trying to reconnect the two roles that his unique position holds.
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/17/2008 12:22:37 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
I don't get the anger and animosity. He is a head of state as well as the head of the largest Church. For those who are Catholic it is an opportunity to participate in a once in a lifetime event.
I for one wish he would stay in his own country and not bring his false doctrine to these shores... Oh... And if it's not too much trouble when one of his workers rapes a child it would be nice if they didn't hide and or cover up the crime since that tends to make it worse and spread. Of course they were too worried about the big picture to deal with the real problem...
As well... The fact so many people are considering this to be a once in a lifetime event is very telling and par for the course...
John
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/17/2008 12:32:23 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11589
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
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quote:
As well... The fact so many people are considering this to be a once in a lifetime event is very telling and par for the course...
Well, ya know, today was his 81st birthday.
I would just be happy to make it to the beach when I am 81, much less endure a trans-Atlantic flight. Those things are murder under the best of circumstances...and jet lag really stinks.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/17/2008 12:45:05 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
As well... The fact so many people are considering this to be a once in a lifetime event is very telling and par for the course...
Well, ya know, today was his 81st birthday.
I would just be happy to make it to the beach when I am 81, much less endure a trans-Atlantic flight. Those things are murder under the best of circumstances...and jet lag really stinks.
I doubt he flew coach...
John
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RE: Pope Benedict XVI in America. Are you excited? - 4/17/2008 12:50:57 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2003
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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Good grief, martyrfan, I made one statement, and you took dragged it down the rabbit hole. It's off topic. That is why I have not continued my posting on it.
So, to return to it. . . no, I don't care too much what the pope does. Just another guy who does some good, and does some bad, like the rest of us.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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