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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/6/2008 4:53:21 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1962
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
Larry, what am I missing in your responses? Above you seem to be saying that seeing miracles, which would cause greater belief, is 'non sense'. But in the following comment a little later you say the disciples deserved chiding because they'd seen miracles before and therefore should have 'more faith'. Your responses seem inconsistent to me.
Well, first of all, I don't believe that God is trying to produce faith in miracles. I think even RCJames would agree with that. God wants for us to have greater faith in Him. If greater faith in miracles produces more miracles, then it doesn't matter what causes us to have more faith. The phonies ought to be commended for fooling people, if that's the case.
As for the disciples, Jesus wanted His disciples to trust Him. They were supposed to have certain expectation of Him, that He repeatedly tried to communicate to them. For example, while He told them that He would not die before His appointed time, they were still afraid that the storm on the Sea of Galilee would destroy them all. Rhetoically, He would say things like: "Why do you marvel?" ("Why are you surprised?")
When they failed to believe He could do miracles, they were chided because for the umpteenth time, they were caught by surprise.
quote:
Concerning your 'faith' definition I'm puzzled. You said your two points were specific for 'our discussion on this thread', so why did you put in that last part in the parenthesis? Your whole position has been very much based upon verifiability...hasn't it?
quote:
1) The acceptance that something is factually true (whether or not it can be verified).
quote:
2) The trust in something or someone, dependence upon that person or that thing. His or its integrity or ability to do what he or it is supposed to do.
I was saying that the definition of faith does not inherently require that its object is worthy of that faith or that the alleged facts be true. I could believe that the moon is made of green cheese. That might be acceptance that something is factually true even if it isn't true. It's still faith on my part.
But for me to believe in the miracles you guys claim, I expect something I can check out. I can believe with investigation--or not. IOW, I can choose to accept it without verification. The definitions and conditions for being defined as "faith" might mean that it does not get verified. But before I accept them as factual, I do require it.quote:
quote:
: Look. I like you guys and everything.
Likewise.
quote:
quote:
Instead, some of you are ready to stone me (not literally) for unbelief.
For what it's worth Larry...I have no stones to throw, only a hope to help edify or encourage...just as I hope is your motive toward me.
I wasn't attempting flattery but only my frail attempts to diffuse what might be perceived as personal.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/6/2008 5:06:27 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1962
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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RCJames said:
quote:
Larry I never said that you lacked faith.
Then what am I to make of post #24?
quote:
How can a person claim belief in Christ, but deny the promises made in the New Testament? Is not this the new "Buffett" stlye of christianity; you know take what you want and ignore the rest of it.
Or this?
quote:
And you close out the above quoted statement by all healings are fake, that. my friend. is denying the Word of God, and threreby God Himself. (James 5:14-15)
(For the record, I never said that all healings are fake, only that I have never observed any that I could judge to be genuine.)
quote:
And no, I do not think that you have answered if you call upon the Elders to annoint you with oil and pray the prayer of faith when you are sich; why are you dodging such a simple question.
A more direct answer presupposes that I agree with your interpretation, and I have already said that I don't. You attempted to corner me is unfortunate. Once or twice is excusable, I guess. But to attempt it again when I have already said that I viewed it differently---let me say that I expected differently.
I would be inclined to interpret it differently if I had something to base it on---like some actual miracle or some actual healing.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 4/6/2008 5:48:29 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/6/2008 7:23:20 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5257
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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Larry, in Reference to
(Jam 5:14) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
(Jam 5:15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
You Stated;
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Further, I have already said that I believe the context is not a universal challenge to get healing. It specifically applies to healing which results from sin.
Please reread the passage as you certainly err in your interpretation. The passage says if you are sick, call the elders, anoint with oil, pray the prayer of faith, and you will be healed.
Then the passage says IF any sins have been committed they will be forgiven.
So the passage is definately not about sickness caused by sins.
You also stated this;
quote:
I would be inclined to interpret it differently if I had something to base it on---like some actual miracle or some actual healing.
But since you do not believe Scripture in the area of God healing sicknesses in responce to the instructed anointing with oil by the Elders and offering a prayer of faith; I doubt you will ever see it.
And as a side note; Jesus did not take very well to folks that demanded a sign to believe His Word.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/6/2008 9:34:13 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1962
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
Please reread the passage as you certainly err in your interpretation. The passage says if you are sick, call the elders, anoint with oil, pray the prayer of faith, and you will be healed.
Then the passage says IF any sins have been committed they will be forgiven.
So the passage is definately not about sickness caused by sins.
Not every IF passage uses "if" in the sense that the sickness issue may be only peripheral. I have explained my POV regarding the passage.
quote:
But since you do not believe Scripture in the area of God healing sicknesses in responce to the instructed anointing with oil by the Elders and offering a prayer of faith; I doubt you will ever see it.
Think what you want.
quote:
And as a side note; Jesus did not take very well to folks that demanded a sign to believe His Word.
RCJames. You guys got nothing. You say you do but I frankly think it is only talk. I have discussed this honestly and openly. I have attempted to be generous in considering your POV.
You want me to buy your song and dance without ever once seeing anything substantive. Look at it from my POV. What do I know? Have I ever seen any indication that it is more than emotion and words? No. I have not. But you are asking me to buy into the whole thing on your say-so. That's asking a lot. My approach has been "wait-and-see." But you want me accept not only your claims but also your interpretation of things when I haven't seen a thing.
To the contrary. In spite of claims for miracles, I have certainly seen some phonies, without a doubt. On your say-say, I must over-haul my whole perspective on things? I don't think so.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 4/6/2008 9:50:36 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/7/2008 10:12:39 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5257
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
You want me to buy your song and dance without ever once seeing anything substantive. Look at it from my POV. What do I know? Have I ever seen any indication that it is more than emotion and words? No. I have not. But you are asking me to buy into the whole thing on your say-so. That's asking a lot. My approach has been "wait-and-see." But you want me accept not only your claims but also your interpretation of things when I haven't seen a thing.
To the contrary. In spite of claims for miracles, I have certainly seen some phonies, without a doubt. On your say-say, I must over-haul my whole perspective on things? I don't think so.
Well does your "Show me attitude" go for other parts of our faith? Have you ever seen heaven? Or hell? Have you seen Jesus?
I guess it is just a different way of looking at things; you say you have to see to believe, and I believe to see exactly what Scripture says..
Thanks for the discussion.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/7/2008 10:58:10 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 426
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Larry,
quote:
Well, first of all, I don't believe that God is trying to produce faith in miracles.
Wouldn't the following scripture disagree with your above comment?
JOH 4:48 Jesus therefore said to him, "Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe."
quote:
But for me to believe in the miracles you guys claim, I expect something I can check out. I can believe with investigation--or not. IOW, I can choose to accept it without verification.
Your above stated position sounds like someone else in scripture...his name was Thomas. Not that I think you should believe, everything that anyone says here, on 'blind faith' either. I just believe that if you've been a believer as long as you have, and have not one miracle to testify to...your faith is certainly different than mine. Equal faith in the Lord Jesus maybe, but certainly a different amount of faith in His works.
quote:
I wasn't attempting flattery but only my frail attempts to diffuse what might be perceived as personal.
I understand, but it is still a pleasant change from the Larry I saw posting here years ago. I like this one better. 
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/7/2008 4:47:48 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1962
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
Wouldn't the following scripture disagree with your above comment?
JOH 4:48 Jesus therefore said to him, "Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe."
Uh, no. The issue with their unbelief generally was not that unbelief that miracles would happen. They refused to believe that Jesus was the Christ, who He said He was. In the case of the above passage, they kept wanting more miracles. They had no doubt that they had occurred.
It is the difference in WHAT was being believed. Can you find a single passage where there was a question that a miracle had taken place? Or, that the controversy about faith was with regard to whether or not there even was a miracle?
I submit that what Jesus was challenging concerning the miracles was either His authority or His identity, but never with regard to whether or not the miracles actually happened.
quote:
Your above stated position sounds like someone else in scripture...his name was Thomas. Not that I think you should believe, everything that anyone says here, on 'blind faith' either. I just believe that if you've been a believer as long as you have, and have not one miracle to testify to...your faith is certainly different than mine. Equal faith in the Lord Jesus maybe, but certainly a different amount of faith in His works.
Perhaps, perhaps not.
Wouldn't it more correct to say that our experiences were different?
Let me ask--honestly. Since you say that you have seen miracles, would they hold up to objective investigation?
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 4/7/2008 5:46:25 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/7/2008 6:38:23 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 528
Joined: 4/16/2007
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I will say what I believe on this topic. I believe that signs and wonders are past. Why? The gift of tongues, and miracles of healing and stuff like that were for a time so that the church could grow. Now that we have the canon of scripture in our hands, I believe most signs and wonders have ceased since the time the bible was put into our hands.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/7/2008 6:58:14 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5739
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From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
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Scripture and history shows that miracles, signs & wonders do not bring people to faith. Heck, at the height of Jesus' ministry right when He was crucified he had only a handful of followers.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/7/2008 7:10:46 PM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 103
Joined: 1/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
I will say what I believe on this topic. I believe that signs and wonders are past. Why? The gift of tongues, and miracles of healing and stuff like that were for a time so that the church could grow. Now that we have the canon of scripture in our hands, I believe most signs and wonders have ceased since the time the bible was put into our hands.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
Do you have scripture for this view, or do u just believe that way because someone else believes that way?
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/7/2008 7:11:11 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 426
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Larry,
quote:
They refused to believe that Jesus was the Christ, who He said He was. The woman with the issue of blood didn't say he was/wasn't the Christ. She said if I touch his garment I will be healed. And Jesus said her faith made her well. Faith in what? Sounds like she had faith in healing (whether he was Christ or not). And what did Jesus subsequently say to her? "Your faith has made you well..."
quote:
Let me ask--honestly. Since you say that you have seen miracles, would they hold up to objective investigation?
I just got off the phone from talking to a brother who testified that he had been healed of cancer a couple of months ago. I asked him for the objective evidence. He said his local physician had three separate urinalysis tests, all showing advanced cancer according to the MD. The doctor said only thing they didn't know was where it was at. He was set up to see an oncologist specialist. In the meantime he was prayed for and anoinnted with oil by the elders, he claimed healing scriptures ect. When he went to have those further testings done all the tests were negative. Biopsies, CAT scans, as well as three more urinalysis tests. He said he just had another urinalysis last Friday which was still negative.
I already told you about my bike wreck. One thing I didn't share was this: A few days after getting home from the hospital, I had a scab on my upper lip the size of my lilttle fingernail. It was the place where a crooked front tooth and pavement met (mashed). It was one of those soft scabs with no edge where you could have even begun to pull it off without bleeding. I remember looking at it in the mirror one night and just lifting it up to the Lord and saying God how long will it take for this to heal. Why was it so important when my face looked a whole lot worse??? Because I had to eat through a straw and it was painful to even suck with. The next morning as I washed my face it fell off and there was perfectly pink skin underneath. I was truly shocked. I honestly feel, that part, of my healing was miraculous and supernatural. And in my case, no big formula.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/7/2008 7:38:43 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 528
Joined: 4/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
I will say what I believe on this topic. I believe that signs and wonders are past. Why? The gift of tongues, and miracles of healing and stuff like that were for a time so that the church could grow. Now that we have the canon of scripture in our hands, I believe most signs and wonders have ceased since the time the bible was put into our hands.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
Do you have scripture for this view, or do u just believe that way because someone else believes that way?
Maybe I should reword that. I believe most of the "miracles" that are talked about in the charismatic movement are deceiving spirits.
I agree with Ezra on this topic, and here are some scriptures that he posted.
"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book: but these are written, THAT YE MIGHT BELIEVE that Jesus is the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life thorugh His name" (John 20:30,31)
"Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN APPROVED OF GOD AMONG YOU by miracles and wonders and signs, WHICH GOD DID BY HIM, as ye yourselves also know" (Acts 2:22).
"GOD ALSO BEARING THEM [the apostles] WITNESS, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will" (Hebrews 2:4).
Also, "Wherefore tongues are FOR A SIGN, not to them that believe, but TO THEM THAT BELIEVE NOT" (1 Corinthians 14:22).
It seems like most of the miracles were either done by Jesus himself or the Apostles.
Here is a scripture I would like to quote also:
John 20:24-29
24Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe."
26Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe." 28Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Meaning, when Jesus talks about Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believed, are also those who never experienced signs and wonders.
I believe in miracles, and the greatest miracle of all is the resurrection of the dead, which we are waiting for. But contrast that with the charismatic movement, (which many are con-artists and deceivers) there is a big difference.
Your sister in Chrit Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/7/2008 7:55:52 PM
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happyhippie
Posts: 45
Joined: 4/7/2008
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If miracles are no more then why bother praying.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/7/2008 9:43:19 PM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 103
Joined: 1/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
I will say what I believe on this topic. I believe that signs and wonders are past. Why? The gift of tongues, and miracles of healing and stuff like that were for a time so that the church could grow. Now that we have the canon of scripture in our hands, I believe most signs and wonders have ceased since the time the bible was put into our hands.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
Do you have scripture for this view, or do u just believe that way because someone else believes that way?
Maybe I should reword that. I believe most of the "miracles" that are talked about in the charismatic movement are deceiving spirits.
I agree with Ezra on this topic, and here are some scriptures that he posted.
"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book: but these are written, THAT YE MIGHT BELIEVE that Jesus is the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life thorugh His name" (John 20:30,31)
"Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN APPROVED OF GOD AMONG YOU by miracles and wonders and signs, WHICH GOD DID BY HIM, as ye yourselves also know" (Acts 2:22).
"GOD ALSO BEARING THEM [the apostles] WITNESS, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will" (Hebrews 2:4).
Also, "Wherefore tongues are FOR A SIGN, not to them that believe, but TO THEM THAT BELIEVE NOT" (1 Corinthians 14:22).
It seems like most of the miracles were either done by Jesus himself or the Apostles.
Here is a scripture I would like to quote also:
John 20:24-29
24Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe."
26Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe." 28Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Meaning, when Jesus talks about Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believed, are also those who never experienced signs and wonders.
I believe in miracles, and the greatest miracle of all is the resurrection of the dead, which we are waiting for. But contrast that with the charismatic movement, (which many are con-artists and deceivers) there is a big difference.
Your sister in Chrit Jesus,
Jessica
Hello,
Ok, I do believe that the miraculous gifts such as prophecy and the gift of tongues as well as interpretation are still in use today. I believe this because I have experienced them, and I do not see scriptural support for them having ceased. And the gifts were not only operated by the apostles, as we see in the apostles letters to the church, especially that of Corinth. We can also see these gifts being exercised in church history. I still dont see much support in your post for the miraculus gifts, such as tongues and prophecy to be non existent today.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/7/2008 10:17:26 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1962
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
The woman with the issue of blood didn't say he was/wasn't the Christ.
Yes. And she wasn't rebuked for lack of faith either was she?
quote:
She said if I touch his garment I will be healed. And Jesus said her faith made her well. Faith in what? Sounds like she had faith in healing (whether he was Christ or not). And what did Jesus subsequently say to her? "Your faith has made you well..."
Should I assume that you really believe what you're saying or that you are merely asking my opinion? Look, there are literary and writing terms where a single word represents an entire concept. They are often expressed as idioms but our literalistic interpretation of words demand a rigid interpretation--but that's not necessary.
("Uncle Same wants you."---"America wants more money.")
If it was the faith itself, then it really doesn't matter what her faith was in does it? She could put her faith in the devil and the result would be the same. Surely, you don't believe that. BTW, the prosperity teachers would say that faith itself has spiritual energy due to fixed laws ordained by God. They use passages such as you cite as proof.
quote:
I just got off the phone from talking to a brother who testified that he had been healed of cancer a couple of months ago. I asked him for the objective evidence. He said his local physician had three separate urinalysis tests, all showing advanced cancer according to the MD. The doctor said only thing they didn't know was where it was at.
Well, that's certainly something. Three separate tests would be pretty hard/impossible to gainsay. One could certainly be a mistake. The medical reports could certainly be used as documentation.
quote:
I already told you about my bike wreck. One thing I didn't share was this: A few days after getting home from the hospital, I had a scab on my upper lip the size of my little fingernail. It was the place where a crooked front tooth and pavement met (mashed). It was one of those soft scabs with no edge where you could have even begun to pull it off without bleeding.
Gee, I dunno. Scabs can be deceptive things.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 4/8/2008 6:51:00 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/8/2008 1:49:34 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1795
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Larry,
quote:
They refused to believe that Jesus was the Christ, who He said He was. The woman with the issue of blood didn't say he was/wasn't the Christ. She said if I touch his garment I will be healed. And Jesus said her faith made her well. Faith in what? Sounds like she had faith in healing (whether he was Christ or not). And what did Jesus subsequently say to her? "Your faith has made you well..."
I'm sure she had faith in Christ. She didn't follow some other man so she could be healed. Faith in healing doesn't heal you.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/8/2008 8:13:22 AM
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WesP
Posts: 2463
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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quote:
I just got off the phone from talking to a brother who testified that he had been healed of cancer a couple of months ago. I asked him for the objective evidence. He said his local physician had three separate urinalysis tests, all showing advanced cancer according to the MD. The doctor said only thing they didn't know was where it was at. He was set up to see an oncologist specialist. In the meantime he was prayed for and anoinnted with oil by the elders, he claimed healing scriptures ect. When he went to have those further testings done all the tests were negative. Biopsies, CAT scans, as well as three more urinalysis tests. He said he just had another urinalysis last Friday which was still negative.
I already told you about my bike wreck. One thing I didn't share was this: A few days after getting home from the hospital, I had a scab on my upper lip the size of my lilttle fingernail. It was the place where a crooked front tooth and pavement met (mashed). It was one of those soft scabs with no edge where you could have even begun to pull it off without bleeding. I remember looking at it in the mirror one night and just lifting it up to the Lord and saying God how long will it take for this to heal. Why was it so important when my face looked a whole lot worse??? Because I had to eat through a straw and it was painful to even suck with. The next morning as I washed my face it fell off and there was perfectly pink skin underneath. I was truly shocked. I honestly feel, that part, of my healing was miraculous and supernatural. And in my case, no big formula.
Him4all,
I am not sure I can follow your discussions. On page one of this thread, you immediately tore the story of what happened to my daughter to pieces, but now you defend miracles. 
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/8/2008 1:13:43 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 426
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Larry,
quote:
Yes. And she wasn't rebuked for lack of faith either was she?
No she wasn't rebuked. But her faith, as stated in scripture, wasn't 'If Jesus is the Christ I will be healed'. She had faith in Jesus AND she had faith in healing. Those not seeing that simply don't have eyes to see IMO.
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If it was the faith itself, then it really doesn't matter what her faith was in does it?
For the record I don't believe that it's 'faith in faith' or 'faith in the bible' that accomplishes healing. I believe that it's faith that comes from hearing a word/rhema from God. But a lack of faith certainly will derail receiving too. It was "by faith that men of old received approval of God" (when there was no Jesus/messiah to believe in). And if you don't believe God is a rewarder 'here and now' to those that diligently seek Him, then you aren't as likely to receive either IMO. For it is "according to your faith" that you will or will not receive IMO. Because if it's based, as you say, upon only believing in Christ...then you must not believe in Christ. The only other option is you don't believe in miracles.
MAT 9:28 When he entered the house, the blind men came to him; and Jesus said to them, "Do you believe that I am able to do this? (NOT, do you believe I'm the Christ!) " They said to him, "Yes, Lord." 29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, "According to your faith be it done to you."
I believe they had faith in Him and they had faith in healing. To believe in him and not believe in healing will allow you to sink like Peter without ever taking the few supernatural steps that Peter did take. Anyone can continue to give lip service to the supernatural all the while sinking in the 'faith robbing reality' of the naturalhot wind that blows in the churches today.
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Gee, I dunno. Scabs can be deceptive things. So can 'heel spurs', so I guess that unless you've walked in the experience it can make a difference as to what you can believe is a reality. I've had enough scabs to know what should have fallen off and what shouldn't. Not a "notable miracle" maybe Larry but for me it was real and I am giving God the glory.
Ephesians4_32,
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I'm sure she had faith in Christ. She didn't follow some other man so she could be healed. Faith in healing doesn't heal you.
I agree with you, but she didn't just believe in the man, she also believed in healing. I'm not limiting my belief/faith/hope. There are those here who are. That's why this thread was started...unbelief. Certainly not 'unbelief' in God...not from GH himself. But certainly an unbelief that God is doing miracles.
Wes,
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I am not sure I can follow your discussions. On page one of this thread, you immediately tore the story of what happened to my daughter to pieces, but now you defend miracles.
I'm sorry if you misunderstood. I do believe in miracles, signs and wonders. I just believe that there is a 'middle of the road' approach that leaves both extremes in the ditch. The one extreme is those who want to call the miraculous as gone or of the devil, and those who want to call miraculous that which is naturally explainable. For me your daughter fell in that last catagory. I know those lines can be blurry at times too Wes, so I hope this helps. At least your position on miracles believes 'for more' and the other position believes 'for nothing'.
DR
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When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/8/2008 1:49:45 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1795
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: happyhippie
If miracles are no more then why bother praying.
We pray because God wants us to:
Matthew 6
6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11Give us this day our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
I find it interesting that Jesus didn't mention healing or sickness in this prayer.
Is every answer to prayer a miracle? What is the biblical definition of miracle?
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/8/2008 2:01:24 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2463
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: happyhippie
If miracles are no more then why bother praying.
We pray because God wants us to:
Matthew 6
6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11Give us this day our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
I find it interesting that Jesus didn't mention healing or sickness in this prayer.
Is every answer to prayer a miracle? What is the biblical definition of miracle?
The Lord's prayer is a model of things to include in prayer. It is not necessary to list all possibilities in a model. The prayer does acknowledge that all is within the power of God (verse 13), so would that not include miracles?
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Peace,
Wes
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<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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