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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/10/2008 10:28:12 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
A Christian should NEVER base his faith and trust upon someone performing miracles, but on the word of God.
Not even if it is Jesus of Nazareth or His apostles?
Actually the apostle John says that he recorded the miracles of Jesus so that we would believe that He is the Son of God, and believing have life through His name (Jn. 20:30,31). It was the miracles of Christ which convinced Nicodemus that He was "come" from God (Jn. 3:2).
So what you are suggesting is against the Word of God. Our faith and trust is in God, and when we see genuine miracles, we must believe that that is the work of God. The miracles of Christ were proof that they were the work of God (Jn.14:9-12).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/10/2008 10:49:13 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1760
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
I looked up the words in the Greek and I cannot find any clearcut distinction between miracles versus signs and wonders.
You won't find the distinction in a dictionary. But you will find it in Scripture. Signs and wonders accompany prophets and apostles.
Nope. It was a Greek concordance that I checked. I will try to do a closer look. The terms as translated appear to be somewhat interchangeable.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/10/2008 11:14:24 PM
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GrahamCracker
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hfr said in post 124quote:
This lady is not even a believer. But when the child reached the age to have her surgery, the doctors went in and said the holes were COMPLETELY healed. The DR said that there's no way he missed this diagnosis and he couldn't give an explanation for the healing. This is something that's verifiable with before/after tests. Would something like this fit your definition of a miraculous healing? Maybe God is trying to get this family's attention?
There are too many unanswered questions here. I don't know enough about that type of medicine. I don't know if there are any normal processes whereby the body heals itself. I don't know whether or not the doctor could have been mistaken. (I just read a story the other day about four cancerous organs accidently transplanted into people needing organ transplants.) People can and do make mistakes.
I have read of normal body processes healing themselves like that. At least, I think I did. But considering that all of the information involves technical issues that none of us are knowlegable about, I am hesitant to call it a miracle right now. (#4 of my post 78, also #1 and 2)
bob97 saidquote:
I was hesitant to even bring the subject up because those who have never experienced this refuse to believe. My whole point it telling the story is... if you learned to listen to the quite voice of God or maybe an angel, you have the same ability as I do at odd times. If it had appeared to happen only once or twice I wouldn’t believe it my self and the first....
Since you are the only witness to the events described, how could we know? People make all kinds of claims. How could we possibly verify it especially in view of the subjective nature of your claims?
(See #5 of my post #78)
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/10/2008 11:42:00 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 413
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Hello everyone!
Does 1 Corinthians 12 apply to us Christians today such as 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles,
I believe in miracles and to another the ability to distinguish between spirits,
1 Corinthians 12:1-31
Spiritual Gifts
PeterD
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/11/2008 2:51:25 AM
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J_Michael80
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quote:
original: Ezra
What you are suggesting is against the Word of God.
When we see genuine miracles, we must believe that that is the work of God.
Do not falsely accuse me of doing against the word of God. You claim that we must believe all these miracles are the work of God? Is that what the scripture says, Ezra? So now your telling people to put their faith in these so-called "geniune miracles?" Who determines which miracles are "geniune," Ezra? Indeed, one of us is suggesting against the will of God.......
"Her prophets have smeared whitewash for them, seeing false visions and divining lies for them, saying, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,' when the LORD has not spoken." (Ezekiel 22:28)
"For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect." (Mark 13:22)
< Message edited by faithfulservant1 -- 4/11/2008 7:45:06 PM >
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/11/2008 3:32:41 AM
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J_Michael80
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Here is the definition of miracle in Hebrew and Greek:
1. Hebrew (mirari) means: to wonder at
2. Greek (semeion) means: sign
< Message edited by faithfulservant1 -- 4/11/2008 2:01:52 PM >
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/11/2008 6:14:37 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1760
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant1
Here is the definition of miracle in Hebrew and Greek:
1. Hebrew (mirari) means: to wonder at
2. Greek (semeion) means: miracle, sign, wonder, token
Faithfulservant:
It appears that you have gotten the meanings from a concordance of some sort. But you have not given us the definition but the translation. When one provides a definition, the "definition" should not include the word we are seeking to define.
Let me quote from Zodhiates Lexical Aids to th New Testament page 1874 as part of the Hebrew Greek Key Study Bible:
4592 Semeion: sign; miracle with an ethical end and purpose. In the pl. miracles which which lead to something out of and beyond themselves; finger-posts of God; valuable not so much for what they are as for what they indicate of the grace and power of the doer of his immediate connection with a higher spiritual world (Mt. 16:20; Acts 14:3; Heb:2:4) See dunammeis (1411), mighty works; megleia (3167), great works, endoxa (1741) glorious works; paradoxa (3861), strange works, thaumasia (2297), admirable works, terata (5959), terrifying works.
I cannot find the Hebrew one just yet. Would you happen to have the Strong's identification number?
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/11/2008 6:26:38 AM
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GrahamCracker
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Ezra,
The Greek Semeion, which I referred to earlier typically means sign. It is translated miracle in the following scriptures. John 2:11, John 2:23, 6:2, 6:14, 4:48.
It is translated sign in the following scriptures. Acts 2:19, 2:22, 2:43, 5:12; 15:19; 2 Cor 2:12.
The use of the term is not always what we would call either miraculous nor wonderous. Paul's signature was called a sign in 2 Thess. 3:17.
The examples I gave above are just a small sample. I could provide many, many more. So, the distinction between sign and miracle in scripture doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
For the rest of you, I gave the Strong's numbers of similar words in order that you may compare.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/11/2008 9:09:26 AM
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pws
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I suspect that most non-charismatics believe that God heals today, most often providentially (through medicine or natural processes), but occasionally through direct intervention. But that is different than the gift of healing as a sign or miracle. In the New Testament we see that God gave certain men the power to heal people in the name of Jesus. I think there are multiple reasons for thinking that he does not do that today. Two of them:
1. CHURCH HISTORY tells us that miracles were not done in the early church after the New Testament period. B. B. Warfield writes about the ending of miracles after the Apostolic period in his book, Miracles : Yesterday and Today. Concerning the second century he writes, “The writings of the so-called Apostolic Fathers contain no clear and certain allusion to miracle-working or to the exercise of the charismatic gifts, contemporaneous with themselves.” Concerning the third century he says, “and so we pass on to the fourth century in an ever-increasing stream, but without a single writer having claimed himself to have wrought a miracle of any kind or having ascribed miracle-working to any known name in the church, and without a single instance having been recorded in detail” (p. 12).
About AD 392 Augustine asked, “Why do not these things take place now?” His answer: “Because they would not move unless they were wonderful, and if they were customary they would not be wonderful. . . God has dealt wisely with us, therefore, in sending his miracles once for all to convince the world, depending afterward on the authority of the multitudes thus convinced.”
Chrysostom wrote in the fourth century, “Argue not because miracles do not happen now, that they did not happen then . . . In those times they were profitable, and now they are not . . . Of miraculous powers, not even a vestige is left.”
2. MIRACLES HAVE BEEN RARE throughout history. “God has wisely protected the significance of miracles in history by the rarity of their occurrence, even in Bible Times. Enoch’s translation was the only recorded miracle in over 1,700 years between Adam and the Flood. For centuries Israel suffered in Egypt with no special voice from heaven. Only rarely did a miracle occur during the centuries from Joshua to David. And God protected the absolute uniqueness of His Son’s miraculous ministry by withholding all miracles for centuries beforehand--even from John the Baptist, the forerunner himself (John 11:41).” (Quoted from John C. Whitcomb, “Does God want Christians to perform Miracles Today?” p. 5)
We know that there will be another period of miracles, this one associated with the end times. "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders..." (2 Thess 2:9).
Jesus said in Matt 7:22-23 that MANY will do miracles in his name who are not even saved.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/11/2008 9:33:24 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1760
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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pws,
May I quote your words for future reference?
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/11/2008 9:46:09 AM
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pws
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
pws,
May I quote your words for future reference?
Of course.
I'm new at this. When I posted it I didn't know there were six pages in the thread. I only saw the first page, so I wasn't up with the conversation. I'm learning.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/11/2008 9:48:26 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pws
I suspect that most non-charismatics believe that God heals today, most often providentially (through medicine or natural processes), but occasionally through direct intervention. But that is different than the gift of healing as a sign or miracle. In the New Testament we see that God gave certain men the power to heal people in the name of Jesus.
Yes, and the certain people are:
(Mark 16-17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(James 5: 14,15) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Here the Word of God gives the priveledge of healing in the Name of Jesus to Elders specifically and to all believers in general.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 4/11/2008 9:56:45 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/11/2008 10:14:07 AM
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jbow
Posts: 629
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
How many people were saved that were healed by Jesus. HOW MANY! How many followed Jesus in the hope of a physical healing, or to get food. A multitude. Yet when he spoke about the realities of the Kingdom of God. Many that followed turned away. Promising physical healing and financial reward may get people into church and praising God. But not into the Spirit. And promises are one thing, but being able to bring them to pass is another. START preaching the realities of sin, and selfishness then see how many people turn away.
Finally... a post from you that I can agree with. Salvation, (justification and sanctification), are what people need. Prosperity gospel is no gospel at all from what I can tell. I serve a God who give's and take' away... blessed be the name of the Lord. However, He will also heal. Not all get healed and if they don't, it is not because they didn't have enough faith. He is sovereign. Sometimes He heals, sometimes He does not. He can do anything. I do think that faith has much to do with it and that, I think, is the reason we hear of the miricalous happening in jungles and remote villages... because the people there are acquainted with the supernatural already from a tradition of "witches" or santeria. Demons and evil spirits can certainly excercise power and bring manifestation into the physical world... but when these people come to hear about Jesus they really believe, they believe it all, they don't doubt and Jesus show's forth His power among them.
As for the western, civilized world... well, we have had a church on every corner for our whole lives and we "know better", we know of the scammers and the kooks and we, even new believers, start out as skeptics. Even being taught to doubt by those who doubted before us.
To sum... God is sovereign. He still heals. He still performs miricles, we just don't see many of them because we do not believe. If we hear about one... we doubt. If there is evidence presented, we suspect it to be fake. If it is not fake we suspect that it is psychosematic. If not that... we suspect that the devil did it... that it is a fake. We believe ANYTHING other that God did it, because that would call into question our superior western intelluctial theology.
There are people in the jungles of central and south America who cannot read or write, who have not seen a TV, who have never read a Bible who have more faith than any of us because they receive the word with joy and simple childlike faith... they believe that God is God and when He deliver's them from the demons who have oppressed them... they KNOW that He is greater. These people have no problem whatever with believing in the spiritual realm... they are overjoyed when they find out that it is not all evil. However, here in the civilized world, most people don't even believe in demons or demon possession. We are very naturalistic, we think that if we can't see it, it's not real. That, IMO, is the big difference and is the reason that we see almost none of the miricalous power of God.
Still, I agree with you. Solid teaching on salvation, the depravity of man, on sanctification, on holiness is paramount. A man can live a fruitful life, Christ living through him, and be glorified at death, having been sick his whole life, having never tasted the healing power of God and that man is far better off than a man who was healed by God and then lived in the flesh.
I don't think that anyone here is "majoring" in healing. There may be a few who are into the WOF prosperity teaching but God can heal that too. Paul said, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthen's me" and he was NOT talking about being the "head and not the tail", he was not talking about "confessing that he was healed and rich", when really he was sick and poor... he was talking about enduring whatever circumstance and whatever place that our Lord saw fit for him, Paul, to be in. He was talking about walking in the Spirit. Paul prayed and saw people healed but all the while he suffered with damaged eyes from seeing the brightness of Christ on the road to Damascus. As far as I know Jesus never healed that. Paul mentioned that some believers would have plucked out their own eyes and given them to him if possible. Then he was also given a messenger of Satan to buffet him so that he would not become puffed up by all the marvelous revelation Christ gave him. Paul advised Timothy to take a little wine for this health... God does not heal everyone, everytime. He is sovereign... but that does not mean that He does not heal anyone at anytime anymore. He still does, He is God.
Julien
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/11/2008 10:23:26 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1760
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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Julien,
Having posted with many of the Charismatics in these forums, I think I can confidently say that none of them are of the prosperity variety.
[edited: none of them in this thread]
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 4/12/2008 4:44:41 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/11/2008 8:11:24 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 364
Joined: 1/28/2006
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Jesus Did Miracles, so that we would focus on the one doing the Miracles.
It is Salvation we should seek, and our goal is to live a life that is pleasing to God.
The church should always focus on Jesus Christ our Lord and Savour.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Well, Godhead, I don't know what to say.
Yes, we are refined through trials, and yes we are to count it all joy when we encounter them and trust God to see us through them in His way, but I do wish you would quote the Scripture that say we are specifically to seek these.
Are we to assume that you are poor, homeless and being pursued by those bent on doing you harm?
My circumstances are waht they are, they could be better and they could be worse.
A disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
(Mat 10:24)
For Christ also suffered on our behalf, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps.
(1Pe 2:21)
Therefore, Christ having suffered for us in the flesh, also you arm yourselves with the same thought, that he suffering in the flesh has been made to rest from sin, in order no longer to live in the lusts of men, but in the will of God the remaining time in the flesh.
(1Pe 4:1-2)
Search me, O God, and know my heart; try me, and know my thoughts, and see if any wicked way is in me; and lead me in the way everlasting.
(Psa 139:23-24)
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father does not chasten? But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are ****s and not sons.
(Heb 12:7-8)
Beloved, do not be astonished at the fiery trial which is to try you, as though a strange thing happened to you, but rejoice according as you are partakers of Christ's suffering, so that when His glory shall be revealed, you may be glad also with exceeding joy. If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of God and of glory rests on you. Truly according to them, He is blasphemed, but according to you He is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or an evildoer, or a meddler in the affairs of others. But if one suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God because of this.
(1Pe 4:12-16)
Do you want more?
_____________________________
There is too much truth in that common proverb, “The nearer the church, the further from God;” it is pity it should be so. (Matthew Henry commentary)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/11/2008 9:04:42 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1834
Status: offline
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quote:
It is translated sign in the following scriptures. Acts 2:19, 2:22, 2:43, 5:12; 15:19; 2 Cor 2:12.
Larry:
Other than the last two references (which do not have the word "sign" or any reference to miracles), you will note that the word "sign" is associated with either Christ or the apostles.
And the reason for this is found in Acts 2:22 and Heb. 2:4, where the sign is to authenticate the messenger and the message. The same applies to "wonders".
However, miracles are direct interventions of God generally in answer to prayer. The healing of Hezekiah was not a sign but an answer to prayer.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/11/2008 9:09:02 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11745
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Jesus Did Miracles, so that we would focus on the one doing the Miracles.
It is Salvation we should seek, and our goal is to live a life that is pleasing to God.
The church should always focus on Jesus Christ our Lord and Savour.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Well, Godhead, I don't know what to say.
Yes, we are refined through trials, and yes we are to count it all joy when we encounter them and trust God to see us through them in His way, but I do wish you would quote the Scripture that say we are specifically to seek these.
Are we to assume that you are poor, homeless and being pursued by those bent on doing you harm?
My circumstances are waht they are, they could be better and they could be worse.
A disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
(Mat 10:24)
For Christ also suffered on our behalf, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps.
(1Pe 2:21)
Therefore, Christ having suffered for us in the flesh, also you arm yourselves with the same thought, that he suffering in the flesh has been made to rest from sin, in order no longer to live in the lusts of men, but in the will of God the remaining time in the flesh.
(1Pe 4:1-2)
Search me, O God, and know my heart; try me, and know my thoughts, and see if any wicked way is in me; and lead me in the way everlasting.
(Psa 139:23-24)
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father does not chasten? But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are ****s and not sons.
(Heb 12:7-8)
Beloved, do not be astonished at the fiery trial which is to try you, as though a strange thing happened to you, but rejoice according as you are partakers of Christ's suffering, so that when His glory shall be revealed, you may be glad also with exceeding joy. If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of God and of glory rests on you. Truly according to them, He is blasphemed, but according to you He is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or an evildoer, or a meddler in the affairs of others. But if one suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God because of this.
(1Pe 4:12-16)
Do you want more?
No need to proof-text for me, but I do have another question: Did you post this from home or from work?
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/11/2008 9:13:53 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1834
Status: offline
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You said:
quote:
A Christian should NEVER base his faith and trust upon someone performing miracles, but on the word of God.
and I responded:
quote:
quote:
original: Ezra
What you are suggesting is against the Word of God.
When we see genuine miracles, we must believe that that is the work of God.
Since I focused on genuine miracles, your first statement was indeed false. Christ and the apostles performed genuine miracles, therefore we can and should put our faith and trust in them.
quote:
Do not falsely accuse me of doing against the word of God. You claim that we must believe all these miracles are the work of God? Is that what the scripture says, Ezra? So now your telling people to put their faith in these so-called "geniune miracles?"
You are indeed going against the Word of God, since God says in His written Word that He performed signs and wonders through Christ and His apostles so that we would believe on Him. These are indeed the works of God, and I quoted the words of Christ to establish that. These are "genuine" miracles and we must believe it is so.
I was not referring to false apostles, false prophets, and their false miracles, and neither were you at the beginning. You simply made a blanket statement about miracles, which was simply false.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 4/11/2008 9:20:48 PM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/11/2008 10:30:46 PM
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pws
Posts: 6
Joined: 4/9/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: pws
I suspect that most non-charismatics believe that God heals today, most often providentially (through medicine or natural processes), but occasionally through direct intervention. But that is different than the gift of healing as a sign or miracle. In the New Testament we see that God gave certain men the power to heal people in the name of Jesus.
Yes, and the certain people are:
(Mark 16-17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(James 5: 14,15) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Here the Word of God gives the priveledge of healing in the Name of Jesus to Elders specifically and to all believers in general.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
1 Corinthians 12:30: “Do all have gifts of healing?” The apostle’s answer is no -- all believers in general do not have the gift of healing.
It is unlikely that the Mark passage was in the original manuscripts. I do believe that these gifts were given to the church (although there is no record of anyone drinking deadly poison), but clearly that doesn’t mean every believer will have them (or, by implication, that they would necessarily be present throughout the church age.)
Currently my inclination is to think that the “prayer of faith” in James is prayer in a local church context with a God-given assurance that this healing is in the will of God. God (not the elders) will heal in answer to the prayer of faith.
The gift of healing was given to the 12 apostles, and there are no apostles today. It is not completely clear that only apostles had the gift of healing. It is listed as a separate gift in 1 Corinthians 12:28-30. But reading Acts, which is the history of the spread of the Gospel in the early decades of the church, one does not get the impression that other believers went around doing miracles as a common occurrence. Acts 2: 43 states, “and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.” Acts 5:12 reads, “And at the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people.” There are no examples of healings in the New Testament done by anyone other than Jesus, the Apostles, or those closely associated with them.
Furthermore, miracles and healings were pointed to by the Apostle Paul as signs of his apostleship. If miracles and healings were done all of the time by many people, they would lose their value as signs of special authority from God. Paul said, “ ...for in no respect was I inferior to the most eminent apostles, ... The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.” (2 Corinthians 12:11-12).
It is clear that not all spiritual gifts were to continue permanently. Paul said that the gifts of prophecy and knowledge would be done away with, and that the gift of tongues would cease of itself, (1 Corinthians 13:8) It appears that the gift of healing ceased even in the period covered by the New Testament record. Paul exercised the gift of healing in Acts 19:11-12, but he did not or could not use it in the cases of Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:27), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), and Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20) He himself was not healed of his thorn in the flesh (2 Corinthians 12:8-9).
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/12/2008 10:57:18 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pws
1 Corinthians 12:30: “Do all have gifts of healing?” The apostle’s answer is no -- all believers in general do not have the gift of healing.
It is unlikely that the Mark passage was in the original manuscripts. I do believe that these gifts were given to the church (although there is no record of anyone drinking deadly poison), but clearly that doesn’t mean every believer will have them (or, by implication, that they would necessarily be present throughout the church age.)
Oh that's nice, if you don't agree with a passage; just claim that the passage should not be there.
quote:
Currently my inclination is to think that the “prayer of faith” in James is prayer in a local church context with a God-given assurance that this healing is in the will of God. God (not the elders) will heal in answer to the prayer of faith.
Of course it is God that does the healing, it is always God that does the healing.
In that passage it is the Elders that offer up the prayer of Faith, and the Scripture says God will raise them up; not might raise them up, but will raise them up.
So if the Elders anoint with oil, pray, and the person is not raised up them evidently the prayer was not in faith.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/12/2008 4:42:55 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1760
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
It is translated sign in the following scriptures. Acts 2:19, 2:22, 2:43, 5:12; 15:19; 2 Cor 2:12.
Larry:
Other than the last two references (which do not have the word "sign" or any reference to miracles), you will note that the word "sign" is associated with either Christ or the apostles.
And the reason for this is found in Acts 2:22 and Heb. 2:4, where the sign is to authenticate the messenger and the message. The same applies to "wonders".
However, miracles are direct interventions of God generally in answer to prayer. The healing of Hezekiah was not a sign but an answer to prayer.
Ezra,
Pay attention. The words translated "sign" and "miracle" are translated from the same Greek word. If there is no difference in the original Greek, how can the English translation prove anything?
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/12/2008 5:56:32 PM
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J_Michael80
Posts: 399
Joined: 3/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
original: Ezra
These are "genuine" miracles and we must believe it is so.
You claim we must believe in these so-called "genuine miracles." So who determines when a miracle is so-called "genuine?" Couldn't anyone perform miracles and claim it is from God?
"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves." (Matthew 7:15)
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/12/2008 6:01:28 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1760
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
It is unlikely that the Mark passage was in the original manuscripts. I do believe that these gifts were given to the church (although there is no record of anyone drinking deadly poison), but clearly that doesn’t mean every believer will have them (or, by implication, that they would necessarily be present throughout the church age.)
Oh that's nice, if you don't agree with a passage; just claim that the passage should not be there.
RC,
IF that were the motive. There is evidence that the last section of Mark is not original. It is not wishful thinking on anyone's part nor is it based on the need to eliminate one more proof. Please don't question people's motives. They may not be what you think they are.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/12/2008 6:07:39 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I've witnessed to many miracles including salvation to agree that miracle are a thing of the past. I've even had the privelge of being used by God minister in this area. Maybe in your circle it a thing of the past...
Yeah, tell that to my friend Lisa who was born bow-legged and, while receiving prayer from a traveling preacher, had the very large space between here knees removed as HaShem straightened her legs. Before this, she had a space between her knees that was two fists wide.
She had gone forward during the meeting for prayer because of health problems from a bicycle crash she had been in and she walked away healed of that pain and with her bow-legs gone!
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Miracles are Past - 4/12/2008 6:34:36 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
RC,
IF that were the motive. There is evidence that the last section of Mark is not original. It is not wishful thinking on anyone's part nor is it based on the need to eliminate one more proof. Please don't question people' | | |
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