|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/17/2008 7:06:54 PM
|
|
|
Godhead
Posts: 364
Joined: 1/28/2006
Status: offline
|
(I am a big fan of Elvis, love his gospel songs. I hope to see him in heaven)
Reasons why we should be concerned about the modern miracle movement.
I believe that this modern movement that obsesses's over miracles and the supernatural is preparing the way for the coming of the Anti-Christ, or man of sin, the son of perdition, in whom The Apostle Paul warned about in his letter to the Thessalonians.
Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.... whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved.
(2Th 2:3-10)
And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. And it had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke like a dragon... And it does great wonders, so that it makes fire come down from the heaven onto the earth in the sight of men. And it deceives those dwelling on the earth, because of the miracles which were given to it to do before the beast, saying to those dwelling on the earth that they should make an image to the beast who had the wound by a sword and lived.
(Rev 13:11-14)
Are real miracles happening today?
And answering, Jesus said to them, Go and tell John what you have seen and heard; that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the gospel is proclaimed to the poor.
(Luk 7:22)
There is much talk about miracles and stories circulating but unless you actually see any of the above miracles occurring do not believe it. God does not want us to be gullible or ignorant. It is obvious that the one spoken of by Paul will be able to do miracles, signs and wonders and by them deceive people. (not necessarily the ones that Jesus did) He will pretend to be God or the giver of Gods Holy Spirit, "so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God." He will appear to be a Christian, "And it had two horns like a lamb," yet deceive, "and he spoke like a dragon."
This person has not come yet, and already there is a movement who is being prepared to follow him. If you are a part of this movement then you are playing a very dangerous game. Believe nothing that you hear and only half of what you see. This person will deceive by doing miracles. what movement today wants and obsesses over miracles. They believe stories and rumors, how much more will they not be able to resist the real thing.
Seek Jehovah while He may be found; call on Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return to Jehovah, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon. For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways, says Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain comes down, and the snow from the heavens, and does not return there, but waters the earth, and makes it bring out and bud, and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater; so shall My Word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do.
(Isa 55:6-11)
_____________________________
There is too much truth in that common proverb, “The nearer the church, the further from God;” it is pity it should be so. (Matthew Henry commentary)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/17/2008 7:44:18 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
Godhead,
We should be concerned (down right upset) over any fakery of any sort in the Church.
But we should not negate the truth of Scripture and the ministry of the Holy Spirit in our zeal.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/19/2008 12:04:15 AM
|
|
|
Godhead
Posts: 364
Joined: 1/28/2006
Status: offline
|
I agree wholeheartedly, but its being able to discern one from the other. In all my years I have never seen one miracle in the church. Although I have been around Christians who believe for a miracle and talk about them. Don't you think that it is a concern when the bible says, "And it deceives those dwelling on the earth, because of the miracles which were given to it to do before the beast, saying to those dwelling on the earth that they should make an image to the beast who had the wound by a sword and lived. " (Rev 13:14)
Now you claim that there is a great outpouring of the holy spirit in the church, but I am not seeing it with my eyes. I am just hearing it with my ears. Nothing is happening in the church other then babbling tongues, slaying in the spirit and holy laughter. none of which is in the New Testament. these things are obviously false signs and wonders and if you cannot discern that, how will you be able to resist the Son of perdition when he comes. Christians who are involved with these false signs and wonders are playing a very dangerous game. Your interpretation of scripture is wrong. No matter what you claim you cannot say that, "The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear; the dead are raised." (Mat 11:5) So any sane person would have to stand back and say, "Well how come these things are not happening, and why are all these other things that are not recorded in the New Testament are." no matter what you say, no matter what you claim, the great outpouring of the holy spirit in the New Testament is not happening today. How can you even suggest that the minuscule supernatural things happening today are associated with the Holy Spirit.
Paul said that these things would cease, and they have. Its the truth that matters and not miracles. They served for a time to establish the truth but we have it now, and yet that for most is not good enough. " because they did not receive the love of the truth." (2Th 2:10) It is a love for the supernatural that they have, not the truth. That is being fulfilled today, right this very second. Do you realize what is at stake here. Why do you think that the son of perdition will be able to deceive them. These things will sound out for all eternity, we are playing for keeps and having a multitude of Christians who agree wont amount to a single speck of sand on the day of judgement. No matter what I say you will not listen. You cannot show me any great works and so you have no foundation for what you claim. I have tried my best and yet that is no where good enough to persuade you.
_____________________________
There is too much truth in that common proverb, “The nearer the church, the further from God;” it is pity it should be so. (Matthew Henry commentary)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/19/2008 12:45:34 AM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1834
Status: offline
|
quote:
In all my years I have never seen one miracle in the church.
The only thing that proves is unbelief (not yours personally -- which could also be part of the problem) but where you have seen no miracles. Jesus did no miracles where there was unbelief.
You yourself are so preoccupied with false signs and wonders, that you have stopped expecting genuine miracles.
Whereas the genuine signs and wonders passed away with the apostles and prophets, God is performing miracles daily through the prayers of faith.
But where there is no faith, there are no miracles.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/19/2008 12:54:51 AM
|
|
|
Godhead
Posts: 364
Joined: 1/28/2006
Status: offline
|
No they are not happening as a whole, are the blind seeing, the dead being raised, the deaf hearing. Don't make this about me, its about false claims and self deception. But I don't care, only those whose name is not written in the book of life will be deceived. No miracles are happening and that's the truth.
And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world.
(Rev 13:8)
Do the words worship and miracles ring a bell?
_____________________________
There is too much truth in that common proverb, “The nearer the church, the further from God;” it is pity it should be so. (Matthew Henry commentary)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/19/2008 10:37:08 AM
|
|
|
ukfan
Posts: 347
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant1
Rcjames, look at these 2 verses. They both warn us about miraculous powers and deception.
"That is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-10)
"And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone." (Revelation 19:20)
I think you should remember the saying abusus non tollit usum...
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/19/2008 10:54:28 AM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2017
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
You should really give your definition of the phrase because the general understanding does not really apply: "Abuse of a right does not invalidate use "
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/19/2008 11:20:38 AM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
No they are not happening as a whole, are the blind seeing, the dead being raised, the deaf hearing. Don't make this about me, its about false claims and self deception.
And it did not happen as a Whole for Jesus;
(Mat 13:58) And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
So maybe it is about you and others because of the unbelief.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/19/2008 7:45:13 PM
|
|
|
Godhead
Posts: 364
Joined: 1/28/2006
Status: offline
|
Not so, it happened plenty of times in the ministry of Jesus and the Apostles. It also happened where there was unbelief but not as much if you read that verse. In the church today it is not happening at all period. It is damage control on your part to blame the lack of faith for there not being any miracles. But its not happening anywhere at all in your church or any other. There are plenty of people willing to spread lies about the miraculous and there are as many so gullible to believe them. I was in a church that had this supposedly south African Prophet. He was telling them of all these great miracles happening in his country, and everyone was believing it without question. funny though, with all of their accumulative belief in what he was saying, not one miracle was actually done in the church by him or anyone else. I think the biggest problem in the church is the level of gullibility opening the way for con men to take advantage of them. This great prophet did nothing but tell stories and he got a large donation of cash for his troubles.
_____________________________
There is too much truth in that common proverb, “The nearer the church, the further from God;” it is pity it should be so. (Matthew Henry commentary)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/19/2008 7:47:30 PM
|
|
|
Godhead
Posts: 364
Joined: 1/28/2006
Status: offline
|
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.
(2Th 2:8-9)
And it does great wonders, so that it makes fire come down from the heaven onto the earth in the sight of men. And it deceives those dwelling on the earth, because of the miracles which were given to it to do before the beast, saying to those dwelling on the earth that they should make an image to the beast who had the wound by a sword and lived. (Rev 13:13-14)
It is clear that this man spoken of by both Paul and John will be able to do miracles. I believe that this man will arise within the church. From amongst us.
If a prophet rises among you, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder which he foretold to you occurs, saying, Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us serve them, you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For Jehovah your God is testing you to know whether you love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
(Deu 13:1-3)
We should be on our guard then. Doing miracles are not the basis for following anyone. I would rather speak two words of truth then a hundred miracles. Make sure that you know what the truth is, and focus on that and not miracles or the supernatural. The Bible is so clear about this that we would be willingly ignorant to continue on haphazardly after miracles, signs and wonders.
_____________________________
There is too much truth in that common proverb, “The nearer the church, the further from God;” it is pity it should be so. (Matthew Henry commentary)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/20/2008 12:42:26 AM
|
|
|
ukfan
Posts: 347
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
You should really give your definition of the phrase because the general understanding does not really apply: "Abuse of a right does not invalidate use "
Bob
From Websters; - abuse does not take away use, i.e., is not an argument against proper use.
Or in other words, quoting Scripture to warn people that false prophets and other agents of Satan will use false miracles to deceive people does not mean true, Godly miracles do not occur.
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/20/2008 12:53:07 AM
|
|
|
ukfan
Posts: 347
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
No they are not happening as a whole, are the blind seeing, the dead being raised, the deaf hearing. Don't make this about me, its about false claims and self deception.
And it did not happen as a Whole for Jesus;
(Mat 13:58) And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
So maybe it is about you and others because of the unbelief.
Thanks
RC
Kind of reminds me of the quote, "If you believe in something, no proof is necessary. If you don't, none is sufficient."
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/20/2008 9:21:39 AM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Not so, it happened plenty of times in the ministry of Jesus and the Apostles. It also happened where there was unbelief but not as much if you read that verse. In the church today it is not happening at all period.
That is where you are just flat out wrong. There are healings and miracles that God performs in many Churches and many lives. Maybe not where you attend, but it is happening.
At your Church (what denomination are you by the way) is the leadership obedient to the following if someone is sick:
(Jas 5:14) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
If not then how would the promised outcome take place;
(Jas 5:15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/25/2008 2:47:14 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
How interesting. Their website makes NO mention of healing, period. Seems like these miracles would merit some mention in their website.
It is also most interesting how Jesus felt about folks needing a sign to believe;
(Mat 16:4) A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/25/2008 3:20:55 PM
|
|
|
cow451
Posts: 3970
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
How interesting. Their website makes NO mention of healing, period. Seems like these miracles would merit some mention in their website.
It is also most interesting how Jesus felt about folks needing a sign to believe;
(Mat 16:4) A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Thanks
RC
Or that miracles would be hidden. LINK In fairness, on very close scrutiny was a passing reference to people being "mended".
(Luke 11:33 KJV) No man, when hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/25/2008 3:41:45 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Or that miracles would be hidden. LINK In fairness, on very close scrutiny was a passing reference to people being "mended".
(Luke 11:33 KJV) No man, when hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
Miracles are not "Hidden" they happen all the time in many mnay Churches (and without the Chruches) around the world and in the United States, get your head out of the sand and your unbelief and rejoince in the truth that is in Jesus Christ.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/25/2008 4:06:40 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Or that miracles would be hidden. LINK In fairness, on very close scrutiny was a passing reference to people being "mended".
Jesus' norm was to tell folks He healed to not tell anyone, not many minded Him, but that was his request more often than not.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/26/2008 7:04:47 PM
|
|
|
cow451
Posts: 3970
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Or that miracles would be hidden. LINK In fairness, on very close scrutiny was a passing reference to people being "mended".
Jesus' norm was to tell folks He healed to not tell anyone, not many minded Him, but that was his request more often than not.
Thanks
RC
They don't seem shy about any other aspect of their ministry. Sorry, Padre, it just doesn't wash. Remember, we're talking about raising the dead, not just your garden variety "my rash disappeared" healing.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/26/2008 7:12:43 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Or that miracles would be hidden. LINK In fairness, on very close scrutiny was a passing reference to people being "mended".
Jesus' norm was to tell folks He healed to not tell anyone, not many minded Him, but that was his request more often than not.
Thanks
RC
They don't seem shy about any other aspect of their ministry. Sorry, Padre, it just doesn't wash. Remember, we're talking about raising the dead, not just your garden variety "my rash disappeared" healing.
I do not know the folks you are talking about so I have no idea if they are full of the Holy Ghost or full of Bull pucky; But if you think that God cannot raise the dead, I feel for you.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/28/2008 12:44:48 PM
|
|
|
cow451
Posts: 3970
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Or that miracles would be hidden. LINK In fairness, on very close scrutiny was a passing reference to people being "mended".
Jesus' norm was to tell folks He healed to not tell anyone, not many minded Him, but that was his request more often than not.
Thanks
RC
They don't seem shy about any other aspect of their ministry. Sorry, Padre, it just doesn't wash. Remember, we're talking about raising the dead, not just your garden variety "my rash disappeared" healing.
I do not know the folks you are talking about so I have no idea if they are full of the Holy Ghost or full of Bull pucky; But if you think that God cannot raise the dead, I feel for you.
Thanks
RC
So, have you seen anybody raised from the dead? I'm not saying He cannot. You misunderstood my point. I'm saying that, for whatever reasons, He isn't in modern times.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/28/2008 1:54:41 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
So, have you seen anybody raised from the dead? I'm not saying He cannot. You misunderstood my point. I'm saying that, for whatever reasons, He isn't in modern times.
There was a baby that had been dead for two days in La Union, Tamps, Mexico in 1987. The flies were crawling in and out of her mouth (probably laying maggot eggs). The baby was anointed with oil and the prayer of faith offerd. That baby in now teaching Sunday School in the village and is engaged to be married.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Miracles are Past - 4/28/2008 3:28:02 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2017
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
It would appear that Satan can also perform miracles. It is stated he will do so in the latter days so I would assume he has that power today. I would assume that this ability would also transfer to the lesser fallen angels. One has to wonder how many miracles have been preformed that would lead people in a wrong direction, misdirecting their attention from the one true God.
I'm not saying the miracle cited by you RC is such but it is just a question in general.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
