Miracles are Past

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Godhead -> Miracles are Past (4/2/2008 10:36:00 PM)
INTRODUCTION One of the many things that Jesus had to contend with while his blessed feet trod upon this fallen world, was men who did not understand the scriptures. A perfect example of this can be seen in the Gospel of Matthew 22:23-33. The Sadducees were a group of Jews in Jesus time, who did not believe that there would be a future resurrection from the dead, that there was no life after death and that there were no angels. Yet they believed in God. A strange religious sect indeed, one who’s hope was in this life alone. (Philippians 3:19) They were not much different than atheist really. What a sad religion that gives no hope for the future and no comfort to men’s souls, accept for a present blessing. These men could not believe in a spiritual world or heaven but still they believed in God, that’s something I guess. It was a religion without faith and we know that without faith its is impossible to please our blessed and eternal Father. (Hebrews 11:6) It is safe to say that this was not a religion that was pleasing to the Lord or on the right track. Yes it is quite possible for those kinds of religions to exist and many do so today, even in the body of Christ. Christian liberalism comes to mind, who I think are much like the Sadducees in many ways, for they lack faith and have a religion based on their inability to believe in God’s unlimited power. They believe that God is limited by the very laws of physics that He himself has instituted. They do not believe that all things are possible with God unlike our Lord Jesus Christ. (Mathew 14:36) What would be the point of praying to a God who could not answer prayer? So the Sadducees did not believe that the dead would be raised, and their argument for this was based on the Law as stated in Deuteronomy 25:5-10. Knowing that Jesus believed in the resurrection, (John 5:28-29) they wanted to trap him by their limited logic. The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. This is how Jesus answered them… Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine. Jesus had gotten right to the root of their problem straight off the bat, “You are in error because you neither know what the scriptures teach, nor do you know the power of God.” Then Jesus who is the light of all men went on to show them the truth. Since the Sadducees only could conceive of this life and all that pertains to it, they could not even consider a different kind of existence then that. Their reasoning was that if there was an afterlife, the same basic rules of the material world would apply there also, they envisioned that the next life would be no different than this one. Not so as the Lord had explain, “But they who are resurrected to life will be like the angels, and things such as sex and marriage will no longer exist.” The Sadducees could not believe in the supernatural and so interpreted all scripture within that light, which was really darkness that drove them into even more darkness. A good lesson can be learned here by all, that anyone who does not know what the scripture teaches, will be lead into error and walk in darkness just as the Sadducees had done. There is no safe or good erroneous doctrine. Anything that contradicts the Holy Scriptures will lead you away into darkness. People like the Sadducees glory in mans knowledge and places that above the God who mad him. (Romans 1:22) Thus we have so much sin and suffering in the world, and darkness. There are two very distinct movements in the body of Christ today, one which I have already mentioned, Liberalism, Christians who do not believe in the full authority of scripture and resort to mans limited logic to understand God. Their folly is obvious to all, but there is also another movement in the body of Christ today who claim to be fundamentalist, the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement. This is a very popular movement in the Church because their emphasis is on experience. They claims to have the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They claim to have the same filling of the Holy Ghost as did the Apostles at Pentecost, and believe or at least claim that they are having the same experiences as the early church, but is this true? The Apostle John wrote in His 1st letter Chapter 4 verse 1… Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God. So I will bring this modern movement that claims to be filled with the Holy Spirit under the scrutiny of the Holy Scriptures, to see whether it is from God. According to the scriptures it is alright to bring into question any kind of teaching or spirit, even if it is from God Himself. The Prophet Ezekiel did that very thing when he protested about eating anything unclean, since it was against the written law, even after God commanded him to do so. And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them. Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth. Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith. (Ezekiel 4:12-16) May God open our eyes then, that we may see the truth of the matter and may God bless you as you read this. AMEN! ( MORE TO COME[8D] )

abu_khomar -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/3/2008 12:45:01 AM)
Hello, Ok, so... what is it that your really trying to say about the gifts and such, that they have ceased? If this is what you are trying to say, can you please give scripture to support your claim?

1love1God1way -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/3/2008 12:56:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: abu_khomar Hello, Ok, so... what is it that your really trying to say about the gifts and such, that they have ceased? If this is what you are trying to say, can you please give scripture to support your claim? pssst. Go look in the tongues thread. He's posted plenty of "support."

LBolt -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/3/2008 10:37:26 AM)
I've witnessed to many miracles including salvation to agree that miracle are a thing of the past. I've even had the privelge of being used by God minister in this area. Maybe in your circle it a thing of the past...

Him4all -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/3/2008 11:22:47 AM)
1love1God1way, quote: Psst Go look in the tongues thread. He's posted plenty of "support." Psst. "support" which is equal to a kid who has to hold up his own stretched out underwear to keep from being embarrassed. [:D] Wes, If your daughter had received 'a miracle healing' they wouldn't be saying she has done "so well". They would say..."This is a miracle!!" I certainly don't say this to put down how well she has done. I'm sorry for her trajedy as well as your family. But as one to whom the doctor said, "I've never had anyone heal so well from similar injuries."...I must differentiate between that which is 'miraculous' or supernatural and that which is naturally super. Personally I do have some permanent damage as I assume your daughter does. But, I should have been dead or paralyzed. Personally I thank God that...like in Job's case...He limited just how far Satan could go. I just believe that we often call things miraculous which in my opinion are bringing down the true definition of that word. When Jesus miraculously healed the blind...they didn't see dimly thereafter...nor did the paralyzed limp from then on. I hope you see my point...they were miraculously healed 100%. Having said that, I do believe and have experienced miraculous healing...which must have come from the devil who, 'according to GH' POV manifests more supernatural power today than God. [:o] Hang on to those 'underfits' GH. [;)] DR

rcjames -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/3/2008 11:37:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Godhead INTRODUCTION One of the many things that Jesus had to contend with while his blessed feet trod upon this fallen world, was men who did not understand the scriptures. A perfect example of this can be seen in the Gospel of Matthew 22:23-33. The Sadducees were a group of Jews in Jesus time, who did not believe that there would be a future resurrection from the dead, that there was no life after death and that there were no angels. Yet they believed in God. A strange religious sect indeed, one who’s hope was in this life alone. (Philippians 3:19) They were not much different than atheist really. What a sad religion that gives no hope for the future and no comfort to men’s souls, accept for a present blessing. These men could not believe in a spiritual world or heaven but still they believed in God, that’s something I guess. It was a religion without faith and we know that without faith its is impossible to please our blessed and eternal Father. (Hebrews 11:6) It is safe to say that this was not a religion that was pleasing to the Lord or on the right track. Yes it is quite possible for those kinds of religions to exist and many do so today, even in the body of Christ. Christian liberalism comes to mind, who I think are much like the Sadducees in many ways, for they lack faith and have a religion based on their inability to believe in God’s unlimited power. They believe that God is limited by the very laws of physics that He himself has instituted. They do not believe that all things are possible with God unlike our Lord Jesus Christ. (Mathew 14:36) What would be the point of praying to a God who could not answer prayer? So the Sadducees did not believe that the dead would be raised, and their argument for this was based on the Law as stated in Deuteronomy 25:5-10. Knowing that Jesus believed in the resurrection, (John 5:28-29) they wanted to trap him by their limited logic. The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. This is how Jesus answered them… Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine. Jesus had gotten right to the root of their problem straight off the bat, “You are in error because you neither know what the scriptures teach, nor do you know the power of God.” Then Jesus who is the light of all men went on to show them the truth. Since the Sadducees only could conceive of this life and all that pertains to it, they could not even consider a different kind of existence then that. Their reasoning was that if there was an afterlife, the same basic rules of the material world would apply there also, they envisioned that the next life would be no different than this one. Not so as the Lord had explain, “But they who are resurrected to life will be like the angels, and things such as sex and marriage will no longer exist.” The Sadducees could not believe in the supernatural and so interpreted all scripture within that light, which was really darkness that drove them into even more darkness. A good lesson can be learned here by all, that anyone who does not know what the scripture teaches, will be lead into error and walk in darkness just as the Sadducees had done. There is no safe or good erroneous doctrine. Anything that contradicts the Holy Scriptures will lead you away into darkness. People like the Sadducees glory in mans knowledge and places that above the God who mad him. (Romans 1:22) Thus we have so much sin and suffering in the world, and darkness. There are two very distinct movements in the body of Christ today, one which I have already mentioned, Liberalism, Christians who do not believe in the full authority of scripture and resort to mans limited logic to understand God. Their folly is obvious to all, but there is also another movement in the body of Christ today who claim to be fundamentalist, the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement. This is a very popular movement in the Church because their emphasis is on experience. They claims to have the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They claim to have the same filling of the Holy Ghost as did the Apostles at Pentecost, and believe or at least claim that they are having the same experiences as the early church, but is this true? The Apostle John wrote in His 1st letter Chapter 4 verse 1… Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God. So I will bring this modern movement that claims to be filled with the Holy Spirit under the scrutiny of the Holy Scriptures, to see whether it is from God. According to the scriptures it is alright to bring into question any kind of teaching or spirit, even if it is from God Himself. The Prophet Ezekiel did that very thing when he protested about eating anything unclean, since it was against the written law, even after God commanded him to do so. And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them. Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth. Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith. (Ezekiel 4:12-16) May God open our eyes then, that we may see the truth of the matter and may God bless you as you read this. AMEN! ( MORE TO COME[8D] ) Hey Godhead, John promised that in the latter days; (2Ti 3:1) This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. (2Ti 3:2) For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, (2Ti 3:3) Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, (2Ti 3:4) Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; (2Ti 3:5) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. And I think you have reached that point. Just proves that Scripture is true. Thanks RC

Him4all -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/3/2008 1:23:32 PM)
Wes, Webster's: Miracle; an event or action that apparently contradicts known scientific laws and is hence thought to be due to supernatural causes, especially to an act of God. quote: The doctor stated this: "Her scars seem to be healing nicely. It is a good thing she did not receive any 3rd degree burns." But there were scars and therefore I say 'naturally super' healing but not 'supernatural'. Again I'm not putting down her wonderful progress, I'm just saying we've brought the definition of miracle down to levels which are atainable naturally, by saint or sinner IMO. Since we're swapping stories... In '04' I flipped my mountain bike on pavement at 17mph and landed directly on my chin and hands 'apparently' still on the bars. The only mark on my helmet was a 3" tire mark from the rear wheel hammering me into the pavement with the full force of the bike. I fractured my jaw centrally and it was shoved back shattering both TMJ joints. My upper jaw then hit the pavement knocking out and breaking 6 teeth and shattering both side of my face and right eye socket. The local hospital had me airlifted to Wichita because of the extent of injuries. There they placed 9 plates and 30 screws into my face putting me back together...along with wiring my jaw shut. My wife didn't even recognize me when she looked into the intensive care window and saw me along with another patient. Two weeks after unwiring my jaw the doctor made me open my mouth three times because he simply couldn't believe I had almost complete range of motion out of the two shattered TMJ's which he said he couldn't even operate on. He'd said the best I could hope for was two arthritic joints. I have zero pain today. But I'm not 100% and I will not call my naturally super healing 'a miracle'. Not breaking my neck or dying from the accident...might...have been more of a miracle...I honestly don't know. DR

GrahamCracker -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/3/2008 1:49:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Him4all Wes, Webster's: Miracle; an event or action that apparently contradicts known scientific laws and is hence thought to be due to supernatural causes, especially to an act of God. quote: The doctor stated this: "Her scars seem to be healing nicely. It is a good thing she did not receive any 3rd degree burns." But there were scars and therefore I say 'naturally super' healing but not 'supernatural'. Again I'm not putting down her wonderful progress, I'm just saying we've brought the definition of miracle down to levels which are atainable naturally, by saint or sinner IMO. DR Him4All Thank you for clarifying it. You worded it in a way that I could not have. Person A, says: "I had a car accident today. I got to the hospital and suffered only a broken leg. It was a miracle I survived." Person B, says: "That's proof that God still does miracles today. We have had so many testimonies of them, people should never say that God never does miracles anymore." Preacher C says: "That's right folks. You have all heard these two testimonies. Come to my service tonight and you will see God's divine miracles, signs and wonders like they had in Bible times." My editorial comment. Guys. The above is a semantic sleight of hand that people allow their words to be so obscured that my eyes glaze over and I get totally disinterested in the testimonies of alleged miracles. Further, it does no good to accuse me and others of unbelief that God is capable of miracles. It's not my unbelief that's the problem, it's people gullibility and lack of clarity on this subject that makes me incredulous. On the other hand, I had a personal discussion with an anesthesiologist, a medical doctor, who told me that his daughter was healed of a heart condition that was verified by medical tests. Although he was highly passionate, he seemed to be a very rational person to me. It is quite possible, of course, that something happened that was not miraculous in the literal sense. Obviously, I could confirm nor deny his testimony. I only know that he was 100 times more believable than those from the pulpit who claim miracles all the time. Frankly, I don't believe them in the least.

Ps103 -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/3/2008 1:57:23 PM)
I think there is a profound difference between some huckster claiming God will do miracles through him at 7pm on Thursday, and the miracles God does when He feels the time is right...

DaveW -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/3/2008 3:28:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ps103 I think there is a profound difference between some huckster claiming God will do miracles through him at 7pm on Thursday, and the miracles God does when He feels the time is right... Preach it Sister! Those who would claim that we no longer live in an era of miracles (or that deny biblical events were miraculous) are operating from an unbiblical world view. (I know - broken record) The God of the bible is the same 4000 years ago, 2000 years ago and today. The only limiting factor is our own lack of faith. We make up doctrines and pick out proof texts to support the lack (such as 1 Cor 13: ...When that which is perfect is come that which is in part is done away...) without trying to track down the context. 1Co 3:13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. The day of revelation is the final judgement, the Perfect (Jesus) will come and show us all - not in a mirror dimly but face to face. ....but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. God wants to be a vital part of our lives, bringing signs and wonders to a lost dying world. Do not let bad theology keep that from happening.

GrahamCracker -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/3/2008 4:46:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW Those who would claim that we no longer live in an era of miracles (or that deny biblical events were miraculous) are operating from an unbiblical world view. (I know - broken record) Really? Where are these miracles? Where are these apostles? quote: The God of the bible is the same 4000 years ago, 2000 years ago and today. The only limiting factor is our own lack of faith. We make up doctrines and pick out proof texts to support the lack (such as 1 Cor 13: ...When that which is perfect is come that which is in part is done away...) without trying to track down the context. We really don't have any biblical proof that "lack of faith" is the limiting factor. We have children dying because people are waiting on miracles that never happen.

Him4all -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/3/2008 5:22:14 PM)
Larry, quote: We really don't have any biblical proof that "lack of faith" is the limiting factor. MAR 6:5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 And he was amazed at their lack of faith. Wouldn't the above verse qualify as biblical proof that limited faith had at least something to do with limited miracles? quote: We have children dying because people are waiting on miracles that never happen. I would think that such situations neither confirm or deny miracles? Don't you think that 'despairing hope' could also be confused with 'faith' in those cases? DR

GrahamCracker -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/3/2008 5:41:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Him4all Larry, quote: We really don't have any biblical proof that "lack of faith" is the limiting factor. MAR 6:5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 And he was amazed at their lack of faith. Wouldn't the above verse qualify as biblical proof that limited faith had at least something to do with limited miracles? No. Not in the sense in we are discussing it here. Look carefully at the context. The people who Jesus is discussing did not disbelieve that miracles were taking place (the belief that miracles are possible is the kind of faith required to get them to happen, supposedly). These people did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. They charged Him with being the "son of the carpenter." Typically, Jesus' opponents believed the miacles happened. They just did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. The Pharisees said (paraphrase) of Peters' miracles in Acts: "A notable miracle has occurred and we cannot deny it." What kind of "unbelief" was that? Further, do you see MORE miracles in those places where faith in miracles are higher? No. You see more gullibility in charlatans. You see false doctrine IN MIRACLES, not purer doctrine. quote: quote: We have children dying because people are waiting on miracles that never happen. I would think that such situations neither confirm or deny miracles? Don't you think that 'despairing hope' could also be confused with 'faith' in those cases? DR Think about it. One of the Roman occupiers said "I believe but help thou mine unbelief." Wouldn't that qualify as despairing hope? Did Jesus deny a healing because the man had despairing hope? I am sure you are familiar with the exact scripture.

rcjames -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/3/2008 7:50:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker Really? Where are these miracles? Where are these apostles? My wife, Phyllis, was repeatedly beaten as a child, her ear drums were busted and scared the incus was damaged in both ears and she was classified as 85% deaf and was deemed totally disabled by the Social Security. She wore two hearing aids which only gave her a 10% gain in hearing. In 1983 we were home from the mission field and was visiting a SBC in Rio Hondo Texad. A sunday School teacher prayed and layed hands on my wife for healing. God healed her that morning instantly. She gave the hearing aids to the Pastor to give to someone else and 28 years later she still hears just fine. (Sometimes too well to suit me). Two interesting things about the healing, first the SBC did not believe in miracles or laying on of hands, but that sweet littly ole lady Sunday School teacher did. Second, my wife had been prayed for many times before without positive results. What was the difference. Well my wife had the night before finally had a break through in forgiving her step dad and grandfather for years of physical abuse and 5 years frorm age 3 to 8 of being repeatedly raped by both of them. We had worked on this unforgiveness she had for nearly 20 years, but that night she truly forgave them. I have often wondered how much the following verse had to do with the miracle; (Mat 18:35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. Where are the miracles; they are not uncommon, but most folks don't speak about them because of the ridicule that comes from those that don't believe Scripture. I have personally seem many absolute God performed miracles in my ministry. A few here in the States, but many many more on the mission field. Why more on the mission field? If you tell someone who has just been saved in a Church church or jungle clearing full of new Believers that the Word says do this, believe, and God will heal; they believe you and have faith that God will perform His Word. When these cynical folks here in the States are told the same thing they immediatly start to think and say that they prayed for Aunt so and so and she died the next day. So you have a group of folks that believe God will do what He says He will do vs. a group that would go into apoplexy if God did what He said He was going to do. There is another verse that fits here; (Mat 13:58) And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. So I will say with all sincerity that miracles are not past. Thsnks RC

GrahamCracker -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/3/2008 8:31:40 PM)
RC, I haven't denied miracles are taking place. But people are often claiming miracles are happening all over the place--that they are common place. But frankly, it doesn't do me any good for people to claim that they are common if they mis-define what a miracle is or isn't. And if they cannot rationally discuss the difference between Uncle Joe's "cure" that took place after he went to the doctor and one that happened either before he went to the doctor or never went at all. My position has consistently been (at least for the past several years): "show me."

GrahamCracker -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/3/2008 8:33:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames (Mat 13:58) And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. So I will say with all sincerity that miracles are not past. Thsnks RC Isn't that out of context?

Ezra -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/3/2008 8:48:30 PM)
quote: Those who would claim that we no longer live in an era of miracles (or that deny biblical events were miraculous) are operating from an unbiblical world view. (I know - broken record) Miracles are not past. However, signs and wonders are past. The greatest miracle is the New Birth. But God is doings all kinds of miracles every day and every minute. We may not hear of them or see them, because these are not signs and wonders. But they are indeed miracles, since God directly intervenes in the lives of humans and does things which are beyond natural explanation. There are all kinds of healings which God performs today. The marvel is that when Christ performed miracles, He admonished those who experienced them to say nothing to anyone else. Therefore we would be wise to keep our miracles to ourselves.

abu_khomar -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/4/2008 12:34:42 AM)
what do u define as signs and wonders? Tongues are sometimes used as a sign, do they not exist?

Ezra -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/4/2008 1:44:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: abu_khomar what do u define as signs and wonders? Tongues are sometimes used as a sign, do they not exist? Abu: Signs and wonders were miracles wrought by God through His prophets and apostles, and through His Christ. The purpose of these miracles was to convince unbelieving Jews that the Gospel was indeed from Heaven, and that the Lord Jesus Christ was indeed the Son of God. They were meant to demonstrate the power of God behind the Gospel, so that sinners would believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and repent. Notice the purpose of signs and wonders in these passages: "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book: but these are written, THAT YE MIGHT BELIEVE that Jesus is the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life thorugh His name" (John 20:30,31) "Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN APPROVED OF GOD AMONG YOU by miracles and wonders and signs, WHICH GOD DID BY HIM, as ye yourselves also know" (Acts 2:22). "GOD ALSO BEARING THEM [the apostles] WITNESS, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will" (Hebrews 2:4). Also, "Wherefore tongues are FOR A SIGN, not to them that believe, but TO THEM THAT BELIEVE NOT" (1 Corinthians 14:22). However, today's "tongues" are not biblical tongues, but "prayer language" as those who speak these tongues will attest. The days of signs and wonders are over. But God continues to work His daily miracles because He is gracious, and hears and answers prayers. When God intervenes in your life directly and does something beyond a naturalistic explanation, that is indeed a miracle. We can pray for miracles today, as Elijah prayed for no rain, and then for rain (James 5:17,18). God will heal in answer to prayer (James 5:14-16).

rcjames -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/4/2008 10:17:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames (Mat 13:58) And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. So I will say with all sincerity that miracles are not past. Thsnks RC Isn't that out of context? I don't think so, the unbelief referred to was unbelief in Jesus, and when we do not believe the Word of God in the area of healing that also is unbelief in Jesus. quote: I haven't denied miracles are taking place. But people are often claiming miracles are happening all over the place--that they are common place. But frankly, it doesn't do me any good for people to claim that they are common if they mis-define what a miracle is or isn't. And if they cannot rationally discuss the difference between Uncle Joe's "cure" that took place after he went to the doctor and one that happened either before he went to the doctor or never went at all. I agree with you here. There are many fake healings by the shucksters just as the New Testament claimed there would be, and there are many miraculous healing claimed when it was just a normal healing. But all that does not negate the truth of the Word of God. There should be a discussion as to what a "Miracle" is. I consider a healing miracle to be a healing that cannot be explained by any thing other than a miracle. As with my wife; it was instantanious, the doctor whem she had been going to for years could not explain it, and honestly he got very angry over her getting her hearing. Angry to the point that he thought we were tricking him some kind of way, just because he could not explain it by medical means. Are miraculous healings common place; NO, but they should be and would be if folks faith was in the Word of God and in God watching over and performing that Word. Thanks RC edited for spelling

Him4all -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/4/2008 12:28:41 PM)
Larry, I see, and agree, with your point that it was a belief concerning Jesus as Messiah in that verse. quote: Further, do you see MORE miracles in those places where faith in miracles are higher? No. You see more gullibility in charlatans. You see false doctrine IN MIRACLES, not purer doctrine. Actually I would have to say 'yes miracles are more common where belief in them abounds.' And I would also have to agree with you and say 'yes there are more charlatans too.' Where else would you expect the adversary to be working the hardest to discredit that which is true and of God? Also, and this is a different twist, I heard a tape one time where a pastor who had just witnessed a very 'charismatic' weekend conference in his church where many 'signs/wonders/words ect. abounded. After, in prayer, he sought God on the matter. He said Lord how much of what we experienced was truly of you? The Spirit answered, "About 25%, and that's more than you normally see." The pastor was incredulous and said 'So why do you let it go on Lord?' And the Spirit said 'So my people will learn discernment.' quote: Think about it. One of the Roman occupiers said "I believe but help thou mine unbelief." Wouldn't that qualify as despairing hope? Did Jesus deny a healing because the man had despairing hope? I am sure you are familiar with the exact scripture. I honestly don't know if that would be 'desparing hope' or just 'little faith'. quote: GrahamCracker: My position has consistently been (at least for the past several years): "show me." Larry, what do you do with a testimony like this one of RC's wife? Do you believe it or doubt it? Just curious. RC, What a wonderful testimony. And how sad that there are those who think miracles/signs/wonders are past. While at the same time they'll actually give credit to the devil for what happened...since they 'know' God doesn't do miracles anymore. DR

GrahamCracker -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/4/2008 1:15:41 PM)
RCJames said quote: I don't think so, the unbelief referred to was unbelief in Jesus, and when we do not believe the Word of God in the area of healing that also is unbelief in Jesus. That is circular reasoning. You are trying to prove that the healings are taking place. You accept that they are taking place and trying to prove they happened. And then, you are stating the quality of my faith (in your conclusion) based upon the premise you're starting with (that true faith accepts the claims of said miracles). Isn't it possible to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God without believing charlatans are behind healings? I think the miracles ought to be objectively verifible. I don't think any such demands are unreasonable. Hucksters would question my sincerity just as quickly. quote: I agree with you here. There are many fake healings by the shucksters just as the New Testament claimed there would be, and there are many miraculous healing claimed when it was just a normal healing. But all that does not negate the truth of the Word of God. No one is saying it is. When phonies are going about, it does not do honor to God to accept them as real. What's interesting is that while everyone agrees that there are phonies, no one believes they are being phonies. Of course, that would almost be the very definition of deception. quote: Are miraculous healings common place; NO, but they should be and would be if folks faith was in the Word of God and in God watching over and performing that Word. Think about. Charismatic Christianity is one of most influential areas of Christianity in the United States. We common acceptance (at least in those churches) that a strong enough faith will yield more miracles. What do we see in reality? I would say that we see MORE phonies than ever. Him4All said quote: Actually I would have to say 'yes miracles are more common where belief in them abounds.' And I would also have to agree with you and say 'yes there are more charlatans too.' Where else would you expect the adversary to be working the hardest to discredit that which is true and of God?.... Everyone has their explanation. God hasn't told me. Frankly, I don't think God told him. quote: I honestly don't know if that would be 'desparing hope' or just 'little faith'. And the difference is what? I know what you mean by despairing hope. But since no scripture identifies anything as such, you base it upon what? quote: Larry, what do you do with a testimony like this one of RC's wife? Do you believe it or doubt it? Just curious. I doubt it, of course. You need to understand that I have never seen a miracle. Those who I have met and claim to have seen them are not credible people, IMHO. That's not to say that I consider RC a liar or anything. He certainly believes he witnessed a miracle. But look at it from my POV. It's really hard to determine that a tangible miracle occurred even if I accept everything he says at face value. The ability to hear better or worse is not something most of us can measure. I can see a withered hand get restored, if that happened in front of me. I could see the dead raised to life, if a decaying body were suddenly restored to life. But changes in hearing are mostly subjective, something I cannot determine. There are psychosomatic possibilities as well.

WesP -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/4/2008 1:18:59 PM)
quote: There are psychosomatic possibilities as well. psy·cho·so·mat·ic / Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sahy-koh-suh-mat-ik, -soh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1. of or pertaining to a physical disorder that is caused by or notably influenced by emotional factors. 2. pertaining to or involving both the mind and the body. That was nice.

rcjames -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/4/2008 1:46:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker RCJames said quote: I don't think so, the unbelief referred to was unbelief in Jesus, and when we do not believe the Word of God in the area of healing that also is unbelief in Jesus. That is circular reasoning. You are trying to prove that the healings are taking place. You accept that they are taking place and trying to prove they happened. And then, you are stating the quality of my faith (in your conclusion) based upon the premise you're starting with (that true faith accepts the claims of said miracles). Isn't it possible to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God without believing charlatans are behind healings? I am not trying to "Prove" anything, you are the one trying to dis-prove that God can and will do what He said He would. How can a person claim belief in Christ, but deny the promises made in the New Testament? Is not this the new "Buffett" stlye of christianity; you know take what you want and ignore the rest of it. And you close out the above quoted statement by all healings are fake, that. my friend. is denying the Word of God, and threreby God Himself. (James 5:14-15) quote: I think the miracles ought to be objectively verifible. I don't think any such demands are unreasonable. Hucksters would question my sincerity just as quickly. I agree. quote: There are psychosomatic possibilities as well Well I will just believe what God had written in the New Testament and accept the greater possibility that God watched over His Word and performed it. Graham, when you are sick do you ask the Elders to annoint you with oil and pray for you? Thsnks RC edited for spelling

GrahamCracker -> RE: Miracles are Past (4/4/2008 4:20:47 PM)
quote: How can a person claim belief in Christ, but deny the promises made in the New Testament? Is not this the new "Buffett" stlye of christianity; you know take what you want and ignore the rest of it. Nice try RC. But you don't have me on record as saying any such thing. I believe the resurrection of Christ actually happened and His miracles like the raising of the dead, whithered arms restored, and stuff like that. But, we also have scriptural references to deceivers and "workers of miracles." If nothing else, we have the more blatant examples by the anti-christ. Should we assume that all such claims are actually valid or isn't it possible that they are phony? I am simply saying that many such claims are deceptions. I have not personally witnessed any dramatic instantaneous healing or miracle--not in the sense that we are discussing here. quote: And you close out the above quoted statement by all healings are fake, that. my friend. is denying the Word of God, and threreby God Himself. (James 5:14-15) I don't take the above scripture as the defacto testimony of scripture that all healings will happen. That scripture, in context and in my view, refers to sickness caused by sin. If you are going to claim that scripture, then I suppose you would be acknowledging that the person's sickness was caused by their personal sin. quote: Well I will just believe what God had written in the New Testament and accept the greater possibility that God watched over His Word and performed it. Graham, when you are sick do you ask the Elders to annoint you with oil and pray for you? Since I don't know of any sickness that was directly attributable to my personal sin, no. And I have never had anything more serious than an ulcer. There was medical treatment that cured that. Look. I hope you don't take my previous comments personally. I wrote them as I did because I thought you could take it without being personally offended. I still believe you are that kind of person. My skepticism is not intended as a personal attack on your integrity or anything of the sort. But you need to know, I wasn't there. I couldn't verify the event(s) before or after. But I do know there are published claims of the most bizarre kind. When I compare what is logical, what makes sense with what I know--versus what I do not know nor have I personally seen, what can I conclude? I have never said "It is not possible" nor have I said "God cannot do this or that" nor "God never does...." But I have said, "I have not seen it and if it is happening somewhere, show me." I don't think I am being unreasonable to ask for something tangible or something that can be investigated.

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