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RE: Manipulated Bible? - 4/8/2008 12:01:12 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2278
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From: The Crossroads of America
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Those who want people to doubt the Bible will do it for the purpose of drawing you away from Christ and/or of promoting their own false teachings. The Book of Mormon really slams the Bible.
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RE: Manipulated Bible? - 4/8/2008 12:49:18 AM
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phyl2
Posts: 228
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quote:
To leave out grammatical errors and spellings should not be overlooked. A subtle thing as a change in a verb's tense can literally change doctrines. Yes, the overall agreements in any Bible text is quite remarkable and no other ancient literature comes close, but remember, either God is still busy creating humanity in His image, or God already created humanity in His image. Does this fall under a grammatical error, because it can change doctrines.
I didn't say grammatical errors, I said grammatical forms. The forms changed, not the verb tenses. No doctrine involved, it's not even a translateable difference.
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RE: Manipulated Bible? - 4/10/2008 12:58:11 PM
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Row1
Posts: 168
Joined: 12/2/2005
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"God left us a lot of proof that He exists, yet He chose to leave it in such a way that we don't have 100%, undeniable proof that He exists. He takes us almost there, but then leaves that last step to be a step of faith. I believe it is the same way with His word. He left us a vast amount of evidence that His word is perfect and preserved accurately. But, He again arranged it so that the last step is a step of faith."
I agree. The situation is not that if only you look for evidence enough, something undeniable will emerge.
The Israelites witnessed the plagues. Why? The plagues were NOT to convince the pharaoh to allow the Israelites to leave - remember, God hardened the pharaoh's heart so the pharaoh would NOT let them leave. The OT says that the plagues happened so that the generations would keep telling their children about the power and support from God.
Nonetheless, as soon as the Israelites were in the desert for a while, some soon started 1. making other gods and 2. saying that they should go back to Egypt.
So, obviously, some people just will not be convinced.
Why?
Free will.
God has allowed us to live a life of free will. This is an awesome gift.
Free will includes being able to choose one thing or another, even when we know one thing may not be good for us.
In other words, we can know right from wrong.
As in 'the tree of knowledge' right-from-wrong.
When each of us figures out that we can take our free will and live live according to God's info, versus our own will, things start going better.
but, since we have free will, this is something that we have to do willingly.
If there was perfect, convincing evidence, we would have no free will in the decision, would we?
So the best thing we can do with our free will is to give it back to God, as thanks, and declare that we are going to live by his will, not ours.
Then, things work out the best for everyone.
This is like: your parents give you good advice. But you are young and think you know everything, so you make your own rules.
Your parents eventually have to let you grow up and make your own decisions, without dictating or controlling you.
Sure, some of your ideas and goals are better, or the same. But eventually, you see the wisdom of your parents.
You give up on a lot of your own agenda, and start going by theirs.
Things work out the best for everyone.
Why do parents let their kids go and learn things the hard way? Because kids have free will, and parents let kids 'go' out of love, and hope that their influence will be remembered and followed. But they can't demand.
So, out of love, God has let us have free will, and has given us info on how to live in accord with him if and when we finally decide we can't be perfect and do perfect on our own, despite however many times we all declare that we all share the same values, we all should be free to discover our own spirituality etc.
For those of us who have figured this out, the Bible is our guidebook to live according to our Father's will rather than our own.
the Bible is not a book developed to convince anyone all the arguments for God. It is just our guidebook to be close to our Father, once we wise up and figure out that we don't know everything, and can't handle things optimally on our own. He has given us all that info so we can see how he has been there for us and cares about us with a father's love, even when we have gone off in some other direction thinking we know better.
Sure, it is fascinating to study the history of the Bible, and archaeology, and the fragments, etc. But to understand what it is good for, you have to read it in this way, as God's info for us, rather than as some book developed to prove he exists.
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RE: Manipulated Bible? - 4/10/2008 2:14:40 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 586
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Row1
"God left us a lot of proof that He exists, yet He chose to leave it in such a way that we don't have 100%, undeniable proof that He exists. He takes us almost there, but then leaves that last step to be a step of faith. I believe it is the same way with His word. He left us a vast amount of evidence that His word is perfect and preserved accurately. But, He again arranged it so that the last step is a step of faith."
I agree. The situation is not that if only you look for evidence enough, something undeniable will emerge.
The Israelites witnessed the plagues. Why? The plagues were NOT to convince the pharaoh to allow the Israelites to leave - remember, God hardened the pharaoh's heart so the pharaoh would NOT let them leave. The OT says that the plagues happened so that the generations would keep telling their children about the power and support from God.
Nonetheless, as soon as the Israelites were in the desert for a while, some soon started 1. making other gods and 2. saying that they should go back to Egypt.
So, obviously, some people just will not be convinced.
Why?
Free will.
God has allowed us to live a life of free will. This is an awesome gift.
Free will includes being able to choose one thing or another, even when we know one thing may not be good for us.
In other words, we can know right from wrong.
As in 'the tree of knowledge' right-from-wrong.
When each of us figures out that we can take our free will and live live according to God's info, versus our own will, things start going better.
but, since we have free will, this is something that we have to do willingly.
If there was perfect, convincing evidence, we would have no free will in the decision, would we?
So the best thing we can do with our free will is to give it back to God, as thanks, and declare that we are going to live by his will, not ours.
Then, things work out the best for everyone.
This is like: your parents give you good advice. But you are young and think you know everything, so you make your own rules.
Your parents eventually have to let you grow up and make your own decisions, without dictating or controlling you.
Sure, some of your ideas and goals are better, or the same. But eventually, you see the wisdom of your parents.
You give up on a lot of your own agenda, and start going by theirs.
Things work out the best for everyone.
Why do parents let their kids go and learn things the hard way? Because kids have free will, and parents let kids 'go' out of love, and hope that their influence will be remembered and followed. But they can't demand.
So, out of love, God has let us have free will, and has given us info on how to live in accord with him if and when we finally decide we can't be perfect and do perfect on our own, despite however many times we all declare that we all share the same values, we all should be free to discover our own spirituality etc.
For those of us who have figured this out, the Bible is our guidebook to live according to our Father's will rather than our own.
the Bible is not a book developed to convince anyone all the arguments for God. It is just our guidebook to be close to our Father, once we wise up and figure out that we don't know everything, and can't handle things optimally on our own. He has given us all that info so we can see how he has been there for us and cares about us with a father's love, even when we have gone off in some other direction thinking we know better.
Sure, it is fascinating to study the history of the Bible, and archaeology, and the fragments, etc. But to understand what it is good for, you have to read it in this way, as God's info for us, rather than as some book developed to prove he exists.
Good stuff Row1. The sad thing is that even when God stood right in front of man...they still rejected Him. They still could not recognize The Word.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Manipulated Bible? - 4/12/2008 4:19:11 AM
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BibleL7
Posts: 441
Joined: 2/1/2008
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To the OP you have received many arguments which give good info. I will only add my pennies worth on this end. Many people will say that Constantine changed the Bible or King James changed the Bible or the Pope changed the Bible. Church historical documents as to the reason for Nicene council and other meetings of early churches show they were to refute false teachings not to change scripture. So someone said that somebody changed the Bible and the rumor was told so often by unbelievers that it was thought to be true.
Here's the actuality of it. God gives His Holy Spirit to born again believers to teach us and He will confirm the Word of God. We dont need to worry about scribal errors or misinterpretations. When I read a bad translation the Spirit grieved me and I had many problems with the wording while reading. So it really does not matter what lies are told about the accuracy of the Bible the Holy Spirit can and will guide you to all truth. Most challenges of the Bible are because people dont want to admit they are sinners and will be judged. They love their sin and deny God so they will not feel bad about the choices they made to sin. Pure and simple. You are born again you will have truth of God not born again you will not have truth end of sentence.
Just the opinion of a small town preacher
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RE: Manipulated Bible? - 4/17/2008 3:22:00 AM
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1DISCIPLE
Posts: 3
Joined: 4/14/2008
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Glimmer; regardless of the issue of manipulation of the Bible or not, you cannot allow this to be your measuring stick of your faith. Either you surrendered your life to Christ Jesus or you didn't. Simple.
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RE: Manipulated Bible? - 4/18/2008 2:18:30 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3748
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Seul_Chemin
People will find any excuse to deny God's Word. The most favorite one is to deny the Bible's infallibility. Even if you prove 100% the Bible the unbeliever will still make excuses in order to ignore God.
I'm a believer, so your remark is off base. Bible "infallibility" is Bible worship. Scriptures were given to humans, fallible humans. Has God ever given humans anything that they maintained perfectly? None that I am able to recall.
Anybody that has ever taken a foreign language learns that it is impossible to perfectly translate from one language to another every word, idea and figure of speech.
Does this mean the Bible cannot be trusted? No. In fact, it is remakable that these books have been so inspirational as to be carried forward as accurately as they have. But human footprints are all over. That's why there are so many doctrinal issues among believers. Example, the Genesis accounts of creation.
Here is a link to an article noting "errors" in translation in the KJV. Note that it is a bit technical and that the overall theme does not change. But it does support my point that it is easy to become a "Bible-worshiper". LINK
_____________________________
Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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RE: Manipulated Bible? - 4/18/2008 2:26:16 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 831
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cow451: I will accept uyour arguement as long it is not used as a justification for neilism or hedenism. It is dishonest when ones back is against the wall in an argument to just say, "It doesn't matter because we can't really trust the bible anyway."
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Manipulated Bible? - 4/18/2008 5:27:34 PM
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Bluethread
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I gave you an example of what I meant. Could you give me an example of calling religion science?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Manipulated Bible? - 4/18/2008 10:15:13 PM
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lmwal931
Posts: 95
Joined: 4/16/2005
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GOD is the one and only creator. HE is the author of truth. HE is the author of science. the bible is inerrant. but it has to be interpreted.
it may have a double meaning. it may have a symbolic meaning.
HE is eternal. the bible can be simple. it can be impossible. and it can
be difficult. the calling is to love everybody.
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RE: Manipulated Bible? - 4/21/2008 1:01:24 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3748
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I gave you an example of what I meant. Could you give me an example of calling religion science?
Wanting creationism taught in science class.
_____________________________
Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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RE: Manipulated Bible? - 4/21/2008 2:16:58 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 831
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I gave you an example of what I meant. Could you give me an example of calling religion science?
Wanting creationism taught in science class.
We do need to stay on topic, there is a science thread or two, in one of these I stated the nature of science and its lack of relevance with regard to anything but the present, sensory verifiable world. If you wish to discuss that you might wish to go there. In short, I believe that the teaching of any belief system in a science class is inappropriate. This includes the evolutionary belief system.
That said, please relate your responses to the issue of whether the Scriptures have been corrupted.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 4/21/2008 2:26:02 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Manipulated Bible? - 4/21/2008 2:51:21 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3748
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I gave you an example of what I meant. Could you give me an example of calling religion science?
Wanting creationism taught in science class.
We do need to stay on topic, there is a science thread or two, in one of these I stated the nature of science and its lack of relevance with regard to anything but the present, sensory verifiable world. If you wish to discuss that you might wish to go there. In short, I believe that the teaching of any belief system in a science class is inappropriate. This includes the evolutionary belief system.
That said, please relate your responses to the issue of whether the Scriptures have been corrupted.
You asked. If evolutionary theory isn't taught, what is there to teach? I think I made my point.
_____________________________
Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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RE: Manipulated Bible? - 4/21/2008 4:33:04 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 831
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No, if evolutionary "theory" is not taught, then science can be taught. Science is the verification through the scientific precess of what is at the time of the experiment. If anything changes, the experiment may not be valid and must be repeated. Now the evolutionary system presumes change. Since, most of what is written in the Scriptures and what is proposed by evolution for that matter occured in the past, before the scientific method was adopted, there is no scientific evidence and we can not replicate what did take place in a controlled environment. That is yet another requirement of the scientific method.
Now, how do you believe the scientific method proves or disproves the integrity of the Scriptures?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 4/21/2008 4:40:13 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Manipulated Bible? - 4/21/2008 4:46:05 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3748
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
No, if evolutionary "theory" is not taught, then science can be taught. Science is the verification through the scientific precess of what is at the time of the experiment. If anything changes, the experiment may not be valid and must be repeated. Now the evolutionary system presumes change. Since, most of what is written in the Scriptures and what is proposed by evolution for that matter occured in the past, before the scientific method was adopted, there is no scientific evidence and we can not replicate what did take place in a controlled environment. That is yet another requirement of the scientific method.
Now, how do you believe the scientific method proves or disproves the integrity of the Scriptures?
It doesn't.
_____________________________
Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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