quote:

ORIGINAL: saved9201

Evangel70 wrote:

quote:

IMO the greatest tragedy of the religious right is that they have reduced Christianity to a political party whose main concern are overturning Roe v. Wade and keeping gays from getting civil rights. To the un-churched, the religious right has as much credibility as Ralph Nader or Ron Paul and their followers.

Lots of truth in those words.

Former Education Secretary and current conservative talk show host William J. Bennett wrote in his book, "The De-Valuing of America", :

"There is much validity to the concerns of many on the "religious right."............Sadly, on some occasions, some of their spokesmen present their views that are unnecessarily narrow and seemingly hostile to those outside the group. I emphasize the word "unnecessarily." Just as we speak differently to our families and to the public, conservative Christians need to appeal to the general moral conscience of most Americans. This does not mean compromising their principles, which the majority of Americans doubtless share. It means only to recognize that in public discourse one of the priorities is to persuade those who don't share your views, and not simply to speak to those with whom you have an affinity."

IMO, "persuading" is not questioning the Christianity of anyone who votes democratic, accusing democrats of being "baby murderers", and throwing hostile tantrums at anyone who disagrees with you. And that's how fellow Christians are treated. The "un-churched" are simply dismissed and ignored. Personally, I don't think a lot of Christians are interested in persuading others at all. I think all they want to do is stand on their pedestals and beat their chests and talk about how much righter with God they are because they vote republican. They're not looking to change people's minds, they're looking for "amens" from others of "like mind". And at the same time, they unmercilessly, dispassionately pounce on anyone who doesn't support their candidate.

- Julius

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: inthysite

Evangel70, I couldn't agree with you more! You don't change things from the outside in, you change them from the inside out.

When Peter and John started preaching the gospel they went to the temple but not to tell the priests, the Pharisees, the Sadducees that they were wrong but rather to proclaim the truth for all to hear so that they could make the right choice. They did it by preaching the truth.

Same thing goes for today. Even if Roe v Wade was overturned (highly unlikely by the way) do you really think that would stop abortions? If you recall abortions were going on long before they became legal. No the way you change society is by change the minds of the people around you, in your community. You do this by lovingly presenting the truth and allow them to make the right choice.

Now when it comes to politics and the presidency I believe the best thing to do is to vote for the person who will do the best for the country, who ever that may be. Sometimes this means voting for the person who will do the least amount of damage.

As far as I can tell the Democrats want to increase taxes but any economics expert will tell you that when a society is headed for or in a recession tax increases only serve to make the recession worse.

Also lets take a look at how democrats run things. They have been in control of the congress for the last year and what has happened in this last year? Unemployment has risen, the stock market has fallen, the housing market has collapsed and then there was the sub prime mortgage fiasco. People want to try and blame Bush for all this but when it comes down to it Congress is responsible for a lot more than people like to admit.

And voting independent doesn't send a message to anyone. Both parties already know that Conservatives are not happy this election year but they don't give a rat's behind. If all Conservatives vote independent it would guarantee a Democratic victory.

Anyone who understands abortion issues and Death Roe knows overturning it would not "stop abortion." That is a common misconception spread by abortion lovers attempting to cause panic among the ignorant.

Overturning Death Roe would leave abortion up to the states, exactly as it was before. Prior to Death Roe there were hundreds of thousands of legal abortions. Places that loved abortion like NY had a thriving killing business as they do today. Other places more interested in justice had many restrictions on it.

Overturning Death Roe also says something about us as a people and a nation. Do we really want to be a nation that is so unjust that we offer no protection to the innocent?

quote:

And yet, McCain STILL has NOT promised that he would use an anti-abortion litmus test on SC justice appointees; and scores a measly 66% from the NRLC - a measure that is highly revered on this site. There are Democrats in the House and Senate that score higher than this! But no, people here will STILL make excuses for this and look silly doing so - because all they are doing is making excuses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

And yet, McCain STILL has NOT promised that he would use an anti-abortion litmus test on SC justice appointees; and scores a measly 66% from the NRLC - a measure that is highly revered on this site. There are Democrats in the House and Senate that score higher than this! But no, people here will STILL make excuses for this and look silly doing so - because all they are doing is making excuses.

What does Obama score from the NRLC?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lizahana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

And yet, McCain STILL has NOT promised that he would use an anti-abortion litmus test on SC justice appointees; and scores a measly 66% from the NRLC - a measure that is highly revered on this site. There are Democrats in the House and Senate that score higher than this! But no, people here will STILL make excuses for this and look silly doing so - because all they are doing is making excuses.

What does Obama score from the NRLC?

Hi Jack,

I don't know why you brought Obama up - I am still undecided as to whom I'm going to vote for. But I'll say this - I can't stand people that boast that they are morally better than everyone else when they are not perfect themselves. There are democrats that are more pro-life than the prince of the GOP, and people here just do not care to admit this.

And, again, which is better: to tout you are the champion of the pro-life movement and look down on 'the other party', and on top of this not do all that you can do to put credence to your word - or, is it better to not lie about what you stand for, and mean what you say?

Peace and God bless,

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

What makes you think Republicans are not pro-life. They could run on the Democratic ticket, if they wish to do so? Why do you doubt Republicans are pro-life?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lizahana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

And yet, McCain STILL has NOT promised that he would use an anti-abortion litmus test on SC justice appointees; and scores a measly 66% from the NRLC - a measure that is highly revered on this site. There are Democrats in the House and Senate that score higher than this! But no, people here will STILL make excuses for this and look silly doing so - because all they are doing is making excuses.

What does Obama score from the NRLC?

Hi Jack,

I don't know why you brought Obama up - I am still undecided as to whom I'm going to vote for. But I'll say this - I can't stand people that boast that they are morally better than everyone else when they are not perfect themselves. There are democrats that are more pro-life than the prince of the GOP, and people here just do not care to admit this.

And, again, which is better: to tout you are the champion of the pro-life movement and look down on 'the other party', and on top of this not do all that you can do to put credence to your word - or, is it better to not lie about what you stand for, and mean what you say?

Peace and God bless,

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

Liz's analysis is full of flaws.

McCain "...scores a measly 66% from the NRLC - a measure that is highly revered on this site."
The whole story: McCain has been on the campaign trail and has missed four of the seven votes the NRLC has kept scores on. This tiny sample size is not representative of McCain's voting pattern on abortion.
Of the three votes he cast, two were with the NRLC and one about embryonic stem cell research was against.
When was the last time you saw someone even mention the NRLC, let alone their "higly revered" scoring system?

"There are Democrats in the House and Senate that score higher than this!"
The real story: There is ONE Democrat in the Senate that scored higher than McCain. I'm sure there is a proportionally paltry few in the House.

"...and people on these forums think that you cannot touch any Republicans record on the issue of abortion because they are all flawless."
Nobody has written that.

By the way, Obama scored zero. Clinton scored zero. About thirty Democrats in the Senate scored zero. Put it this way, thirty Democratic Senators added together made two fewer pro-life votes than John McCain did when he was hardly in Washington at all.

http://www.capwiz.com/nrlc/scorecard.xc?chamber=S&state=US&session=110&x=12&y=11

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lizahana

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

Liz's analysis is full of flaws.

McCain "...scores a measly 66% from the NRLC - a measure that is highly revered on this site."
The whole story: McCain has been on the campaign trail and has missed four of the seven votes the NRLC has kept scores on. This tiny sample size is not representative of McCain's voting pattern on abortion.
Of the three votes he cast, two were with the NRLC and one about embryonic stem cell research was against.
When was the last time you saw someone even mention the NRLC, let alone their "higly revered" scoring system?

"There are Democrats in the House and Senate that score higher than this!"
The real story: There is ONE Democrat in the Senate that scored higher than McCain. I'm sure there is a proportionally paltry few in the House.

"...and people on these forums think that you cannot touch any Republicans record on the issue of abortion because they are all flawless."
Nobody has written that.

By the way, Obama scored zero. Clinton scored zero. About thirty Democrats in the Senate scored zero. Put it this way, thirty Democratic Senators added together made two fewer pro-life votes than John McCain did when he was hardly in Washington at all.

http://www.capwiz.com/nrlc/scorecard.xc?chamber=S&state=US&session=110&x=12&y=11

No - ljmac, you have generalized ALL democrats as 'murdering, blood-thirsty' heathens - you have done so numerous times on these forums - I'd be happy to pull quotes for you. And when asked to qualify your answer - which site do you use? Why, none other than the nrlc.org. Then, on this note, you conveniently leave out the fact that McCain scores lower on the nrlc.org than some democrats. You also then, neglect to mention that, surprisingly (I was definitely surprised) there are quite a few Republicans that score lower than the democrats that I am about to mention.

And no - you are so biased that you do not want to see - that is the problem here.

Here are the nrlc.org scores of democrats that score as good or better than McCain:

House Reps:
8. Jim Marshall (D-GA-8) X X O X X X NV 5 1 83%
3. Dan Lipinski (D-IL-3) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
12. Jerry Costello (D-IL-12) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
2. Joe Donnelly (D-IN-2) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
8. Brad Ellsworth (D-IN-8) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
1. Bart Stupak (D-MI-1) X X O X X X O 5 2 71%
7. Collin Peterson (D-MN-7) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
8. James Oberstar (D-MN-8) X X O X X X O 5 2 71%
4. Gene Taylor (D-MS-4) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
7. Mike McIntyre (D-NC-7) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
11. Heath Shuler (D-NC-11) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
. Charlie Wilson (D-OH-6) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
4. Lincoln Davis (D-TN-4) NV X O X X X X 5 1 83%
1. Alan Mollohan (D-WV-1) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
3. Nick Rahall (D-WV-3) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%

Senators:
Mary Landrieu (D-LA) X NV O X X O X 4 2 66%
Ben Nelson (D-NE) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%

And on this note, ljmac - I noticed a surprisingly number of OTHER Republicans that score LOWER than even these 'evil' democrats! - would you like me to post their scores? And if you say that's not true - you are in denial and I will post them. And if you don't address this note - I will assume that you know this and that it is fair to say that the Republican, then are not the flawless princes on the subject of anti-abortion that you make them out to be.

And I also see that you do not care to address the fact that overturning RVW thru judicial appointments has NOT worked for DECADES. Republican presidents have appointed the majority of SC justices in the last 3 decades - and this has NOT overturned RVW.

And I also see that you fail to address the fact that Republicans did NOTHING at the Congressional level from 2000-2006 when they controlled both the legislative and executive branches of government - to return jurisdictin to the states on the matter of sanctity of life. They could have done what Ron Paul is trying to do right now with HR 2597. And where are the Republicans on this? And if you dismiss what Ron Paul is trying to do - then you must address the fact that overturning RVW through the judicial arm is plainly NOT working. And dismissing what Ron Paul is doing is simply making excuses for Republicans inactivity when it comes to returning federal jurisdiction to the states. Anyone who is not so biased they can't see or refuse to see; can plainly see this.

By the way - I know the scores of Clinton and Obama - I was pointing out that there are democrats that score better than McCain on being anti-abortion. And surprising to even me - there are even MORE Republicans that score lower than the aforementioned democrats!!! Unreal - and how convenient that you have never pointed this out - how very interesting.

And I also see that you did not address another VERY important point - that McCain has STILL NOT promised that he will use an anti-abortion litmus test on SC justices appointees. If he does not promise this, with his 66% rating from the nrlc.org, why all the fuss over him?

Peace and God bless,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lizahana

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

Liz's analysis is full of flaws.

McCain "...scores a measly 66% from the NRLC - a measure that is highly revered on this site."
The whole story: McCain has been on the campaign trail and has missed four of the seven votes the NRLC has kept scores on. This tiny sample size is not representative of McCain's voting pattern on abortion.
Of the three votes he cast, two were with the NRLC and one about embryonic stem cell research was against.
When was the last time you saw someone even mention the NRLC, let alone their "higly revered" scoring system?

"There are Democrats in the House and Senate that score higher than this!"
The real story: There is ONE Democrat in the Senate that scored higher than McCain. I'm sure there is a proportionally paltry few in the House.

"...and people on these forums think that you cannot touch any Republicans record on the issue of abortion because they are all flawless."
Nobody has written that.

By the way, Obama scored zero. Clinton scored zero. About thirty Democrats in the Senate scored zero. Put it this way, thirty Democratic Senators added together made two fewer pro-life votes than John McCain did when he was hardly in Washington at all.

http://www.capwiz.com/nrlc/scorecard.xc?chamber=S&state=US&session=110&x=12&y=11

No - ljmac, you have generalized ALL democrats as 'murdering, blood-thirsty' heathens - you have done so numerous times on these forums - I'd be happy to pull quotes for you. And when asked to qualify your answer - which site do you use? Why, none other than the nrlc.org. Then, on this note, you conveniently leave out the fact that McCain scores lower on the nrlc.org than some democrats. You also then, neglect to mention that, surprisingly (I was definitely surprised) there are quite a few Republicans that score lower than the democrats that I am about to mention.

And no - you are so biased that you do not want to see - that is the problem here.

Here are the nrlc.org scores of democrats that score as good or better than McCain:

House Reps:
8. Jim Marshall (D-GA-8) X X O X X X NV 5 1 83%
3. Dan Lipinski (D-IL-3) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
12. Jerry Costello (D-IL-12) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
2. Joe Donnelly (D-IN-2) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
8. Brad Ellsworth (D-IN-8) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
1. Bart Stupak (D-MI-1) X X O X X X O 5 2 71%
7. Collin Peterson (D-MN-7) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
8. James Oberstar (D-MN-8) X X O X X X O 5 2 71%
4. Gene Taylor (D-MS-4) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
7. Mike McIntyre (D-NC-7) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
11. Heath Shuler (D-NC-11) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
. Charlie Wilson (D-OH-6) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
4. Lincoln Davis (D-TN-4) NV X O X X X X 5 1 83%
1. Alan Mollohan (D-WV-1) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
3. Nick Rahall (D-WV-3) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%

Senators:
Mary Landrieu (D-LA) X NV O X X O X 4 2 66%
Ben Nelson (D-NE) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%

And on this note, ljmac - I noticed a surprisingly number of OTHER Republicans that score LOWER than even these 'evil' democrats! - would you like me to post their scores? And if you say that's not true - you are in denial and I will post them. And if you don't address this note - I will assume that you know this and that it is fair to say that the Republican, then are not the flawless princes on the subject of anti-abortion that you make them out to be.

And I also see that you do not care to address the fact that overturning RVW thru judicial appointments has NOT worked for DECADES. Republican presidents have appointed the majority of SC justices in the last 3 decades - and this has NOT overturned RVW.

And I also see that you fail to address the fact that Republicans did NOTHING at the Congressional level from 2000-2006 when they controlled both the legislative and executive branches of government - to return jurisdictin to the states on the matter of sanctity of life. They could have done what Ron Paul is trying to do right now with HR 2597. And where are the Republicans on this? And if you dismiss what Ron Paul is trying to do - then you must address the fact that overturning RVW through the judicial arm is plainly NOT working. And dismissing what Ron Paul is doing is simply making excuses for Republicans inactivity when it comes to returning federal jurisdiction to the states. Anyone who is not so biased they can't see or refuse to see; can plainly see this.

By the way - I know the scores of Clinton and Obama - I was pointing out that there are democrats that score better than McCain on being anti-abortion. And surprising to even me - there are even MORE Republicans that score lower than the aforementioned democrats!!! Unreal - and how convenient that you have never pointed this out - how very interesting.

And I also see that you did not address another VERY important point - that McCain has STILL NOT promised that he will use an anti-abortion litmus test on SC justices appointees. If he does not promise this, with his 66% rating from the nrlc.org, why all the fuss over him?

Peace and God bless,

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lizahana

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

Liz's analysis is full of flaws.

McCain "...scores a measly 66% from the NRLC - a measure that is highly revered on this site."
The whole story: McCain has been on the campaign trail and has missed four of the seven votes the NRLC has kept scores on. This tiny sample size is not representative of McCain's voting pattern on abortion.
Of the three votes he cast, two were with the NRLC and one about embryonic stem cell research was against.
When was the last time you saw someone even mention the NRLC, let alone their "higly revered" scoring system?

"There are Democrats in the House and Senate that score higher than this!"
The real story: There is ONE Democrat in the Senate that scored higher than McCain. I'm sure there is a proportionally paltry few in the House.

"...and people on these forums think that you cannot touch any Republicans record on the issue of abortion because they are all flawless."
Nobody has written that.

By the way, Obama scored zero. Clinton scored zero. About thirty Democrats in the Senate scored zero. Put it this way, thirty Democratic Senators added together made two fewer pro-life votes than John McCain did when he was hardly in Washington at all.

http://www.capwiz.com/nrlc/scorecard.xc?chamber=S&state=US&session=110&x=12&y=11

No - ljmac, you have generalized ALL democrats as 'murdering, blood-thirsty' heathens - you have done so numerous times on these forums - I'd be happy to pull quotes for you. And when asked to qualify your answer - which site do you use? Why, none other than the nrlc.org. Then, on this note, you conveniently leave out the fact that McCain scores lower on the nrlc.org than some democrats. You also then, neglect to mention that, surprisingly (I was definitely surprised) there are quite a few Republicans that score lower than the democrats that I am about to mention.

And no - you are so biased that you do not want to see - that is the problem here.

Here are the nrlc.org scores of democrats that score as good or better than McCain:

House Reps:
8. Jim Marshall (D-GA-8) X X O X X X NV 5 1 83%
3. Dan Lipinski (D-IL-3) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
12. Jerry Costello (D-IL-12) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
2. Joe Donnelly (D-IN-2) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
8. Brad Ellsworth (D-IN-8) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
1. Bart Stupak (D-MI-1) X X O X X X O 5 2 71%
7. Collin Peterson (D-MN-7) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
8. James Oberstar (D-MN-8) X X O X X X O 5 2 71%
4. Gene Taylor (D-MS-4) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
7. Mike McIntyre (D-NC-7) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
11. Heath Shuler (D-NC-11) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
. Charlie Wilson (D-OH-6) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
4. Lincoln Davis (D-TN-4) NV X O X X X X 5 1 83%
1. Alan Mollohan (D-WV-1) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
3. Nick Rahall (D-WV-3) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%

Senators:
Mary Landrieu (D-LA) X NV O X X O X 4 2 66%
Ben Nelson (D-NE) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%

And on this note, ljmac - I noticed a surprisingly number of OTHER Republicans that score LOWER than even these 'evil' democrats! - would you like me to post their scores? And if you say that's not true - you are in denial and I will post them. And if you don't address this note - I will assume that you know this and that it is fair to say that the Republican, then are not the flawless princes on the subject of anti-abortion that you make them out to be.

And I also see that you do not care to address the fact that overturning RVW thru judicial appointments has NOT worked for DECADES. Republican presidents have appointed the majority of SC justices in the last 3 decades - and this has NOT overturned RVW.

And I also see that you fail to address the fact that Republicans did NOTHING at the Congressional level from 2000-2006 when they controlled both the legislative and executive branches of government - to return jurisdictin to the states on the matter of sanctity of life. They could have done what Ron Paul is trying to do right now with HR 2597. And where are the Republicans on this? And if you dismiss what Ron Paul is trying to do - then you must address the fact that overturning RVW through the judicial arm is plainly NOT working. And dismissing what Ron Paul is doing is simply making excuses for Republicans inactivity when it comes to returning federal jurisdiction to the states. Anyone who is not so biased they can't see or refuse to see; can plainly see this.

By the way - I know the scores of Clinton and Obama - I was pointing out that there are democrats that score better than McCain on being anti-abortion. And surprising to even me - there are even MORE Republicans that score lower than the aforementioned democrats!!! Unreal - and how convenient that you have never pointed this out - how very interesting.

And I also see that you did not address another VERY important point - that McCain has STILL NOT promised that he will use an anti-abortion litmus test on SC justices appointees. If he does not promise this, with his 66% rating from the nrlc.org, why all the fuss over him?

Peace and God bless,

Liz,
Out of over perhaps 225 Democrats in the House you come up with about a dozen that score higher than McCain and offer that as proof of Democrats being pro-life? That's incredibly weak analysis. And let's not forget, that they voted for Nancy Pelosi for Speaker, and she'll surely kill any pro-life legislation as surely as liberals will kill the unborn.

I think you make things up as you go along. I never, "have generalized ALL democrats as 'murdering, blood-thirsty' heathens - you have done so numerous times on these forums - I'd be happy to pull quotes for you." Please pull my quote, but not out of thin air.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jkdjr25

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lizahana

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

Liz's analysis is full of flaws.

McCain "...scores a measly 66% from the NRLC - a measure that is highly revered on this site."
The whole story: McCain has been on the campaign trail and has missed four of the seven votes the NRLC has kept scores on. This tiny sample size is not representative of McCain's voting pattern on abortion.
Of the three votes he cast, two were with the NRLC and one about embryonic stem cell research was against.
When was the last time you saw someone even mention the NRLC, let alone their "higly revered" scoring system?

"There are Democrats in the House and Senate that score higher than this!"
The real story: There is ONE Democrat in the Senate that scored higher than McCain. I'm sure there is a proportionally paltry few in the House.

"...and people on these forums think that you cannot touch any Republicans record on the issue of abortion because they are all flawless."
Nobody has written that.

By the way, Obama scored zero. Clinton scored zero. About thirty Democrats in the Senate scored zero. Put it this way, thirty Democratic Senators added together made two fewer pro-life votes than John McCain did when he was hardly in Washington at all.

http://www.capwiz.com/nrlc/scorecard.xc?chamber=S&state=US&session=110&x=12&y=11

No - ljmac, you have generalized ALL democrats as 'murdering, blood-thirsty' heathens - you have done so numerous times on these forums - I'd be happy to pull quotes for you. And when asked to qualify your answer - which site do you use? Why, none other than the nrlc.org. Then, on this note, you conveniently leave out the fact that McCain scores lower on the nrlc.org than some democrats. You also then, neglect to mention that, surprisingly (I was definitely surprised) there are quite a few Republicans that score lower than the democrats that I am about to mention.

And no - you are so biased that you do not want to see - that is the problem here.

Here are the nrlc.org scores of democrats that score as good or better than McCain:

House Reps:
8. Jim Marshall (D-GA-8) X X O X X X NV 5 1 83%
3. Dan Lipinski (D-IL-3) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
12. Jerry Costello (D-IL-12) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
2. Joe Donnelly (D-IN-2) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
8. Brad Ellsworth (D-IN-8) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
1. Bart Stupak (D-MI-1) X X O X X X O 5 2 71%
7. Collin Peterson (D-MN-7) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
8. James Oberstar (D-MN-8) X X O X X X O 5 2 71%
4. Gene Taylor (D-MS-4) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
7. Mike McIntyre (D-NC-7) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
11. Heath Shuler (D-NC-11) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
. Charlie Wilson (D-OH-6) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
4. Lincoln Davis (D-TN-4) NV X O X X X X 5 1 83%
1. Alan Mollohan (D-WV-1) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
3. Nick Rahall (D-WV-3) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%

Senators:
Mary Landrieu (D-LA) X NV O X X O X 4 2 66%
Ben Nelson (D-NE) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%

And on this note, ljmac - I noticed a surprisingly number of OTHER Republicans that score LOWER than even these 'evil' democrats! - would you like me to post their scores? And if you say that's not true - you are in denial and I will post them. And if you don't address this note - I will assume that you know this and that it is fair to say that the Republican, then are not the flawless princes on the subject of anti-abortion that you make them out to be.

And I also see that you do not care to address the fact that overturning RVW thru judicial appointments has NOT worked for DECADES. Republican presidents have appointed the majority of SC justices in the last 3 decades - and this has NOT overturned RVW.

And I also see that you fail to address the fact that Republicans did NOTHING at the Congressional level from 2000-2006 when they controlled both the legislative and executive branches of government - to return jurisdictin to the states on the matter of sanctity of life. They could have done what Ron Paul is trying to do right now with HR 2597. And where are the Republicans on this? And if you dismiss what Ron Paul is trying to do - then you must address the fact that overturning RVW through the judicial arm is plainly NOT working. And dismissing what Ron Paul is doing is simply making excuses for Republicans inactivity when it comes to returning federal jurisdiction to the states. Anyone who is not so biased they can't see or refuse to see; can plainly see this.

By the way - I know the scores of Clinton and Obama - I was pointing out that there are democrats that score better than McCain on being anti-abortion. And surprising to even me - there are even MORE Republicans that score lower than the aforementioned democrats!!! Unreal - and how convenient that you have never pointed this out - how very interesting.

And I also see that you did not address another VERY important point - that McCain has STILL NOT promised that he will use an anti-abortion litmus test on SC justices appointees. If he does not promise this, with his 66% rating from the nrlc.org, why all the fuss over him?

Peace and God bless,

Liz,
Out of over perhaps 225 Democrats in the House you come up with about a dozen that score higher than McCain and offer that as proof of Democrats being pro-life? That's incredibly weak analysis. And let's not forget, that they voted for Nancy Pelosi for Speaker, and she'll surely kill any pro-life legislation as surely as liberals will kill the unborn.

I think you make things up as you go along. I never, "have generalized ALL democrats as 'murdering, blood-thirsty' heathens - you have done so numerous times on these forums - I'd be happy to pull quotes for you." Please pull my quote, but not out of thin air.

The point that was trying to be made is that, by and large, the republicans are stereotyped as being pro-life and the democrats being pro-choice. There are people who make the egregious claim that all democrats have the same opinion, just like there are people who say that all republicans are the same on some issues.

The quoted statistics show that there are some democrats who have a better record on pro-life issues than the man who is running for President. That's pretty telling in a lot of ways, at least in my own humble opinion.

quote:

Then you're willingly and knowingly ignoring the NRLC's own data which was linked and posted above.

McCain scored 66% and the democrats listed in the study scored better. If you want to ignore those findings that's your choice. However you shouldn't be surprised when someone calls you on it.

The republicans are just as corrupt as any other party. They use Christians to get votes the same way that democrats use minorities. It's all a game to them. One big popularity contest and constant one upsmanship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Then you're willingly and knowingly ignoring the NRLC's own data which was linked and posted above.

McCain scored 66% and the democrats listed in the study scored better. If you want to ignore those findings that's your choice. However you shouldn't be surprised when someone calls you on it.

The republicans are just as corrupt as any other party. They use Christians to get votes the same way that democrats use minorities. It's all a game to them. One big popularity contest and constant one upsmanship.

First off, I am fairly certain if we were to list votes by party there would be no dispute here that the most Democrats vote to sustain the abortion status quo, or advance the use of the procedure, and many more Republicans oppose such measures.

Indeed, if McCain were running for President against any of the Democrats listed, there might be some validity to the argument; but as he is running against two strong proponents of the use of abortion, who would certainly extend it's use and appoint Justices who did the same (which is where it really matters) this discussion is moot.

And while there certainly are corrupt individuals in both parties, it doesn't change the reality of the equation.

quote:

All I'm saying is that McCain isn't the best person ever on the issue of abortion and I believe that was what the other poster was pointing out. If he's going to put his record on the line then he has to be prepared for hard questions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jkdjr25

Then you're willingly and knowingly ignoring the NRLC's own data which was linked and posted above.

McCain scored 66% and the democrats listed in the study scored better. If you want to ignore those findings that's your choice. However you shouldn't be surprised when someone calls you on it.

The republicans are just as corrupt as any other party. They use Christians to get votes the same way that democrats use minorities. It's all a game to them. One big popularity contest and constant one upsmanship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lizahana

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

Liz's analysis is full of flaws.

McCain "...scores a measly 66% from the NRLC - a measure that is highly revered on this site."
The whole story: McCain has been on the campaign trail and has missed four of the seven votes the NRLC has kept scores on. This tiny sample size is not representative of McCain's voting pattern on abortion.
Of the three votes he cast, two were with the NRLC and one about embryonic stem cell research was against.
When was the last time you saw someone even mention the NRLC, let alone their "higly revered" scoring system?

"There are Democrats in the House and Senate that score higher than this!"
The real story: There is ONE Democrat in the Senate that scored higher than McCain. I'm sure there is a proportionally paltry few in the House.

"...and people on these forums think that you cannot touch any Republicans record on the issue of abortion because they are all flawless."
Nobody has written that.

By the way, Obama scored zero. Clinton scored zero. About thirty Democrats in the Senate scored zero. Put it this way, thirty Democratic Senators added together made two fewer pro-life votes than John McCain did when he was hardly in Washington at all.

http://www.capwiz.com/nrlc/scorecard.xc?chamber=S&state=US&session=110&x=12&y=11

No - ljmac, you have generalized ALL democrats as 'murdering, blood-thirsty' heathens - you have done so numerous times on these forums - I'd be happy to pull quotes for you. And when asked to qualify your answer - which site do you use? Why, none other than the nrlc.org. Then, on this note, you conveniently leave out the fact that McCain scores lower on the nrlc.org than some democrats. You also then, neglect to mention that, surprisingly (I was definitely surprised) there are quite a few Republicans that score lower than the democrats that I am about to mention.

And no - you are so biased that you do not want to see - that is the problem here.

Here are the nrlc.org scores of democrats that score as good or better than McCain:

House Reps:
8. Jim Marshall (D-GA-8) X X O X X X NV 5 1 83%
3. Dan Lipinski (D-IL-3) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
12. Jerry Costello (D-IL-12) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
2. Joe Donnelly (D-IN-2) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
8. Brad Ellsworth (D-IN-8) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
1. Bart Stupak (D-MI-1) X X O X X X O 5 2 71%
7. Collin Peterson (D-MN-7) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
8. James Oberstar (D-MN-8) X X O X X X O 5 2 71%
4. Gene Taylor (D-MS-4) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
7. Mike McIntyre (D-NC-7) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
11. Heath Shuler (D-NC-11) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%
. Charlie Wilson (D-OH-6) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
4. Lincoln Davis (D-TN-4) NV X O X X X X 5 1 83%
1. Alan Mollohan (D-WV-1) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%
3. Nick Rahall (D-WV-3) O X O X X X X 5 2 71%

Senators:
Mary Landrieu (D-LA) X NV O X X O X 4 2 66%
Ben Nelson (D-NE) X X O X X X X 6 1 85%

And on this note, ljmac - I noticed a surprisingly number of OTHER Republicans that score LOWER than even these 'evil' democrats! - would you like me to post their scores? And if you say that's not true - you are in denial and I will post them. And if you don't address this note - I will assume that you know this and that it is fair to say that the Republican, then are not the flawless princes on the subject of anti-abortion that you make them out to be.

And I also see that you do not care to address the fact that overturning RVW thru judicial appointments has NOT worked for DECADES. Republican presidents have appointed the majority of SC justices in the last 3 decades - and this has NOT overturned RVW.

And I also see that you fail to address the fact that Republicans did NOTHING at the Congressional level from 2000-2006 when they controlled both the legislative and executive branches of government - to return jurisdictin to the states on the matter of sanctity of life. They could have done what Ron Paul is trying to do right now with HR 2597. And where are the Republicans on this? And if you dismiss what Ron Paul is trying to do - then you must address the fact that overturning RVW through the judicial arm is plainly NOT working. And dismissing what Ron Paul is doing is simply making excuses for Republicans inactivity when it comes to returning federal jurisdiction to the states. Anyone who is not so biased they can't see or refuse to see; can plainly see this.

By the way - I know the scores of Clinton and Obama - I was pointing out that there are democrats that score better than McCain on being anti-abortion. And surprising to even me - there are even MORE Republicans that score lower than the aforementioned democrats!!! Unreal - and how convenient that you have never pointed this out - how very interesting.

And I also see that you did not address another VERY important point - that McCain has STILL NOT promised that he will use an anti-abortion litmus test on SC justices appointees. If he does not promise this, with his 66% rating from the nrlc.org, why all the fuss over him?

Peace and God bless,

Liz,
Out of over perhaps 225 Democrats in the House you come up with about a dozen that score higher than McCain and offer that as proof of Democrats being pro-life? That's incredibly weak analysis. And let's not forget, that they voted for Nancy Pelosi for Speaker, and she'll surely kill any pro-life legislation as surely as liberals will kill the unborn.

I think you make things up as you go along. I never, "have generalized ALL democrats as 'murdering, blood-thirsty' heathens - you have done so numerous times on these forums - I'd be happy to pull quotes for you." Please pull my quote, but not out of thin air.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jkdjr25

Then you're willingly and knowingly ignoring the NRLC's own data which was linked and posted above.

McCain scored 66% and the democrats listed in the study scored better. If you want to ignore those findings that's your choice. However you shouldn't be surprised when someone calls you on it.

The republicans are just as corrupt as any other party. They use Christians to get votes the same way that democrats use minorities. It's all a game to them. One big popularity contest and constant one upsmanship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Then you're willingly and knowingly ignoring the NRLC's own data which was linked and posted above.

McCain scored 66% and the democrats listed in the study scored better. If you want to ignore those findings that's your choice. However you shouldn't be surprised when someone calls you on it.

The republicans are just as corrupt as any other party. They use Christians to get votes the same way that democrats use minorities. It's all a game to them. One big popularity contest and constant one upsmanship.

First off, I am fairly certain if we were to list votes by party there would be no dispute here that the most Democrats vote to sustain the abortion status quo, or advance the use of the procedure, and many more Republicans oppose such measures.

Indeed, if McCain were running for President against any of the Democrats listed, there might be some validity to the argument; but as he is running against two strong proponents of the use of abortion, who would certainly extend it's use and appoint Justices who did the same (which is where it really matters) this discussion is moot.

And while there certainly are corrupt individuals in both parties, it doesn't change the reality of the equation.

quote:

Well, the point being made here, of course is: that if the party, that being the Republican party, posturing as the moral princes because they all vote perfect concerning being anti-abortion, then they are wrong.

And no, I believe you're wrong. McCain supports federal funding of embryonic stem cell research; and he has NOT promised to use an anti-abortion litmus test on SC justice appointees. These two issues are BIG - the latter is big to me; since this is the ONLY issue I agree with Republicans on. So, I will certainly not excuse myself on being so nit-picky on this issue with McCain, the prince of the GOP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Well, the point being made here, of course is: that if the party, that being the Republican party, posturing as the moral princes because they all vote perfect concerning being anti-abortion, then they are wrong.

And no, I believe you're wrong. McCain supports federal funding of embryonic stem cell research; and he has NOT promised to use an anti-abortion litmus test on SC justice appointees. These two issues are BIG - the latter is big to me; since this is the ONLY issue I agree with Republicans on. So, I will certainly not excuse myself on being so nit-picky on this issue with McCain, the prince of the GOP.

Well, I am no I am not arguing moral perfection on abortion on behalf of the Republicans, nor even moral superiority; merely that in very practical terms McCain seems much more likely to do what I want to see done in regards to abortion.

quote:

If McCain does not promise that he will use an anti-abortion litmus test on SC justice nominees, how can he be better than the other ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lizahana

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lizahana

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

Liz's analysis is full of flaws.

McCain "...scores a measly 66% from the NRLC - a measure that is highly revered on this site."
The whole story: McCain has been on the campaign trail and has missed four of the seven votes the NRLC has kept scores on. This tiny sample size is not representative of McCain's voting pattern on abortion.
Of the three votes he cast, two were with the NRLC and one about embryonic stem cell research was against.
When was the last time you saw someone even mention the NRLC, let alone their "higly revered" scoring system?

"There are Democrats in the House and Senate that score higher than this!"
The real story: There is ONE Democrat in the Senate that scored higher than McCain. I'm sure there is a proportionally paltry few in the House.

"...and people on these forums think that you cannot touch any Republicans record on the issue of abortion because they are all flawless."
Nobody has written that.

By the way, Obama scored zero. Clinton scored zero. About thirty Democrats in the Senate scored zero. Put it this way, thirty Democratic Senators added together made two fewer pro-life votes than John McCain did when he was hardly in Washington at all.

http://www.capwiz.com/nrlc/scorecard.xc?chamber=S&state=US&session=110&x=12&y=11

No - ljmac, you have generalized ALL democrats as 'murdering, blood-thirsty' heathens - you have done so numerous times on these forums - I'd be happy to pull quotes for you. And when asked to qualify your answer - which site do you use? Why, none other than the nrlc.org. Then, on this note, you conveniently leave out the fact that McCain scores lower on the nrlc.org than some democrats. You also then, neglect to mention that, surprisingly (I was definitely surprised) there are quite a few Republicans that score lower than the democrats that I am about to mention.

And no - you are so biased that you do not want to see - that is the problem here.

Here are the nrlc.org scores of democrats that score as good or better than McCain:

House Reps:...

Senators:...

And on this note, ljmac - I noticed a surprisingly number of OTHER Republicans that score LOWER than even these 'evil' democrats! - would you like me to post their scores? And if you say that's not true - you are in denial and I will post them. And if you don't address this note - I will assume that you know this and that it is fair to say that the Republican, then are not the flawless princes on the subject of anti-abortion that you make them out to be.

And I also see that you do not care to address the fact that overturning RVW thru judicial appointments has NOT worked for DECADES. Republican presidents have appointed the majority of SC justices in the last 3 decades - and this has NOT overturned RVW.

And I also see that you fail to address the fact that Republicans did NOTHING at the Congressional level from 2000-2006 when they controlled both the legislative and executive branches of government - to return jurisdictin to the states on the matter of sanctity of life. They could have done what Ron Paul is trying to do right now with HR 2597. And where are the Republicans on this? And if you dismiss what Ron Paul is trying to do - then you must address the fact that overturning RVW through the judicial arm is plainly NOT working. And dismissing what Ron Paul is doing is simply making excuses for Republicans inactivity when it comes to returning federal jurisdiction to the states. Anyone who is not so biased they can't see or refuse to see; can plainly see this.

By the way - I know the scores of Clinton and Obama - I was pointing out that there are democrats that score better than McCain on being anti-abortion. And surprising to even me - there are even MORE Republicans that score lower than the aforementioned democrats!!! Unreal - and how convenient that you have never pointed this out - how very interesting.

And I also see that you did not address another VERY important point - that McCain has STILL NOT promised that he will use an anti-abortion litmus test on SC justices appointees. If he does not promise this, with his 66% rating from the nrlc.org, why all the fuss over him?

Peace and God bless,

Liz,
Out of over perhaps 225 Democrats in the House you come up with about a dozen that score higher than McCain and offer that as proof of Democrats being pro-life? That's incredibly weak analysis. And let's not forget, that they voted for Nancy Pelosi for Speaker, and she'll surely kill any pro-life legislation as surely as liberals will kill the unborn.

I think you make things up as you go along. I never, "have generalized ALL democrats as 'murdering, blood-thirsty' heathens - you have done so numerous times on these forums - I'd be happy to pull quotes for you." Please pull my quote, but not out of thin air.

Um, no, ljmac - I plainly said that there are some democrats that score better than McCain, the reigning prince of the GOP, and, in fact, there are some democrats that score a lot better than some Republicans on the issue of abortion - would you care to take issue with this? Because I can post these Republicans records, if you care to take issue with this. (BTW, you're side-tracking - just a hint; ).

I am not making things up ljmac, here are some of your quotes:

From your '50 million dead and thirsty for more' topic:

<from ljmac> post #1: "There is no end in sight. The left will continue to demand the entrails of the innocent. There is nothing so brutal, nasty, mean or cruel done in the name of abortion that they will not embrace.”

post #7, in response to rlj:

"quote:

There is no end in sight. The left will continue to demand the entrails of the innocent. There is nothing so brutal, nasty, mean or cruel done in the name of abortion that they will not embrace.


This is false. 16 democratic senators voted for the partial birth abortion plan and 3 abstained from voting on it. Obviously within the Senate there are liberals who can say that they aren't embracing every single version of abortion.

Any other rhetorical hogwash to spout about today?


As a group the left has never backed down from their desire for continued legalization of sucking the brains out of babies. Not NOW, not the ACLU, not the Democratic Party. There were a few Democratic Senators who voted to permit it's banishment..."

Would you care for me to post more of your posts? Because I will.

And, I see you have neglected the fact that Republicans failed to legislatively even try to return jurisdiction on the matter of sanctity of life back to the states (like Ron Paul is trying to do right now), when from 2000-2006, they controlled both the executive and legislative branches of government. AND, AGAIN, you fail to address the fact that McCain has NOT promised to use an anti-abortion litmus test on SC justice nominees; as well as the fact that he supports federal funding of embryonic stem cell research.

Peace and God bless,