Merciless God makes people do his dirty work?

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victorwyant -> Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/6/2008 2:33:32 PM)
I have been a Christian for 10 years, and have read the entire Bible twice. In the past, I have always "glossed over" the more difficult OT passages dealing with God's wrath, dismissing them as "something funky in the OT dealing with Israel". But now, I am troubled because God's character seems very inconsistent with that of Jesus Christ. Specifically, Exodus 32:27 and Numbers 15:32 (plus or minus a few versus to get context) are troubling me most at the moment. Here are the issues which I have been unable to answer: 1) why God decides to kill these individuals? Is death really necessary, and more importantly, is this really consistent with his character (especially in the case of the wood gatherer). Would Jesus have killed them? 2) not only does God decide to kill them, but he doesn't even appear to have the fortitude to do it himself. He makes the Levites do his dirty work in Exodus, and the whole community in Numbers. He then rewards the Levites for this slaughter by making them priests! Yikes! Trying to reconcile this, I think about Jesus, and can't imagine the parallel........imagine if upon seeing the moneychangers in the temple, Jesus says to the disciples "pick up your swords and slay them!" No way! But that's EXACTLY what it appears God is doing here in these OT passages. In the golden calf story, God could have commanded Moses to have the rebels leave, not to be a part of the community any longer, or, if death was necessary, he could have killed them himself instead of making the Levites do it. As for the guy gathering wood, give me break! Maybe a stern reminder, but death!?!? And even if death was to be the punishment, once again, God could have done it himself rather than making the people do it. ---in the process of trying to make sense of this, I've come across a few other OT passages which seem even more egregious, but I'll try to take this a small chunk at a time, so I'll focus just on these two for now. What is going on with this?????

GroupW -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/6/2008 2:38:07 PM)
There's a book that deals with some of this in a bit of a tangential way. Check out Wm. Webb "Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals"

cybrjewls -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/6/2008 3:31:37 PM)
Greetings in The Lord! God will do things any way that He pleases with anyone at any time for whatsoever purpose He so desires. We need to remember what Jesus taught about the wasted talent that was given to someone. The entrusted 'servant' said God was hard and not reasonable and was judged according to his actions and faith concerning God. If one believes that God is easy and merciful; shouldn't we make every effort, all the more, to invest whatever He has given us to produce favorable returns? Yet if God is tough, shouln't we seek to serve and please Him all the more and invest whatever He has given us to produce favorable returns? For it is written: Jesus said: For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions." God also did Works through Moses and fulfilled all in Christ. He came both ways. We are given a written Testimony that He has. Therefore, shouldn't we all the more understand that He will do things His Way? His Good, Pleasing, and Perfect Will is to be done on earth as in Heaven. The kings of the earth have ordered people to go to war, be killed, tortured, pestilences, bombs, chemical weapons... When they order it, it is done many times. When The King of another City from On High orders something, shouldn't we who are His people carry it out? Consider this: the disobedient who were not allowed to escape death through the Righteous Commandment given have already endured their punishment. How will we escape, then, if we ignore so great a salvation?! For God can call these in His Court on The Day of Judgment to testify concerning us if He wants to. Also, when Israel had turned to worship false gods like 'baal', God still sent the harvest and food and mercy instead of Judgment (decisions), at first, for it is written: 'I take no delight in the death of anyone.' quote: ORIGINAL: victorwyant I have been a Christian for 10 years, and have read the entire Bible twice. In the past, I have always "glossed over" the more difficult OT passages dealing with God's wrath, dismissing them as "something funky in the OT dealing with Israel". But now, I am troubled because God's character seems very inconsistent with that of Jesus Christ. Specifically, Exodus 32:27 and Numbers 15:32 (plus or minus a few versus to get context) are troubling me most at the moment. Here are the issues which I have been unable to answer: 1) why God decides to kill these individuals? Is death really necessary, and more importantly, is this really consistent with his character (especially in the case of the wood gatherer). Would Jesus have killed them? 2) not only does God decide to kill them, but he doesn't even appear to have the fortitude to do it himself. He makes the Levites do his dirty work in Exodus, and the whole community in Numbers. He then rewards the Levites for this slaughter by making them priests! Yikes! Trying to reconcile this, I think about Jesus, and can't imagine the parallel........imagine if upon seeing the moneychangers in the temple, Jesus says to the disciples "pick up your swords and slay them!" No way! But that's EXACTLY what it appears God is doing here in these OT passages. In the golden calf story, God could have commanded Moses to have the rebels leave, not to be a part of the community any longer, or, if death was necessary, he could have killed them himself instead of making the Levites do it. As for the guy gathering wood, give me break! Maybe a stern reminder, but death!?!? And even if death was to be the punishment, once again, God could have done it himself rather than making the people do it. ---in the process of trying to make sense of this, I've come across a few other OT passages which seem even more egregious, but I'll try to take this a small chunk at a time, so I'll focus just on these two for now. What is going on with this?????

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/6/2008 4:47:49 PM)
The title of your thread is an absolute distortion of the very character of God. It is deceptive and angers me. Of all the characteristics of God that I have experienced, more then any other, it is God's mercy. You are on a very dangerous, dangerous tract. It is a very slippery slope to stay focused on what your OP focus's on. If you are, indeed a Christian, I beg of you to not allow the enemy of your soul to continue putting His doubts about the character of God in your mind For that is what is happening here. I know because I have been there.

SnapDraggin -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/6/2008 11:05:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod The title of your thread is an absolute distortion of the very character of God. It is deceptive and angers me. Of all the characteristics of God that I have experienced, more then any other, it is God's mercy. You are on a very dangerous, dangerous tract. It is a very slippery slope to stay focused on what your OP focus's on. If you are, indeed a Christian, I beg of you to not allow the enemy of your soul to continue putting His doubts about the character of God in your mind For that is what is happening here. I know because I have been there. Good morning, CherishedbyGod, Victorwyant is asking very reasonable questions that deserves answers, instead of warnings. If some of these things are not answered, it's a though we are turning a blind eye towards it, without understanding traits in God's character. I'll give you a simple example.. References: Jos_11:6; Jos_11:9; 2Sa_8:4; 1Ch_18:4; Jos 11:6 "...thou shalt hamstring their horses, and burn their chariots with fire..." To many people this seems like a very vicious thing to do, especially to animals, as it is the humans who train them for war. The "hamstring" is better known as "houghing" and here is what a veterinarian has to say regarding the "houghing of warhorses".. quote: "...the "houghing" of horses involved the cutting of the main tendon in their back legs (like our Achilles tendon that carries the most stress and load under hard use) so the horses would live but never again able to be used as chariot horses for war; but they could still be taken as booty and as "spoils of war" and not have to be outright killed and wasted as a resource. Therefore these horses would become no longer valuable for war purposes (since they were already highly trained for chariot pulling and, if recaptured by the enemy, these horses could be reused for war - and these horses were trained to do various things: stop quickly, make a circle to pick up fallen charioteers, and have the charioteer walk on the tongue of the rigging, while, if necessary, the charioteer could even mount and ride one (or both) of the horses if the chariot was damaged, so as to cut loose a damaged chariot), but these war-bootly horses could still be used for breeding stock, for riding by individuals, for light work around the farms,..." Sometimes, if we do not delve into things, we will never know what God wants us to learn about Him.. Regards Snappy

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/6/2008 11:58:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SnapDraggin Victorwyant is asking very reasonable questions that deserves answers, instead of warnings. If some of these things are not answered, it's a though we are turning a blind eye towards it, without understanding traits in God's character. I'll give you a simple example.. Regards Snappy I think it best that you answer him and not me. I still believe it was best that I warn him instead of giving answers.....This person is in very dangerous territory, I believe... I am also very concerned that weak believers or unbelievers see his title and are driven away from God because of it....

VCO -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/7/2008 12:27:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: victorwyant I have been a Christian for 10 years, and have read the entire Bible twice. In the past, I have always "glossed over" the more difficult OT passages dealing with God's wrath, dismissing them as "something funky in the OT dealing with Israel". But now, I am troubled because God's character seems very inconsistent with that of Jesus Christ. . . . U&U GOD cannot cease to be everything that He is. It is True that He is a Loving, Merciful God; but it is equally true that He is a "Just GOD", and He cannot cease being a "Just GOD". Isaiah 45:21 (NKJV) 21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. AND He does not just get others to do His killing when that is the justice a Just God must hand out. Acts 5:1-11 (NIV) 1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet. 3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." 5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him. 7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?" "Yes," she said, "that is the price." 9 Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also." 10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events. The question is NOT "why did God deal with Ananias and Sapphira so harshly?" Because God dealt with them justly. The question IS "why has God NOT dealt with us equally as harsh when we sinned?"

SnapDraggin -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/7/2008 1:52:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod I think it best that you answer him and not me. I still believe it was best that I warn him instead of giving answers.....This person is in very dangerous territory, I believe... I am also very concerned that weak believers or unbelievers see his title and are driven away from God because of it.... Hi CherishedbyGod, I appreciate your concern but feel the opposite to be more valuable. Unbelievers ask these type of questions and shy away because their questions are met with "warnings", rather than explanations - weak believers in their turn look up to more mature believers to supply rational answers. Alot of people struggle with these type of questions because no satisfactory answers are given to them. The Bible isn't shy in showing us these "horrible" events, therefore we shouldn't shy away either. Regards Snappy [;)]

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/7/2008 2:34:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SnapDraggin quote: ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod I think it best that you answer him and not me. I still believe it was best that I warn him instead of giving answers.....This person is in very dangerous territory, I believe... I am also very concerned that weak believers or unbelievers see his title and are driven away from God because of it.... Hi CherishedbyGod, I appreciate your concern but feel the opposite to be more valuable. Unbelievers ask these type of questions and shy away because their questions are met with "warnings", rather than explanations - weak believers in their turn look up to more mature believers to supply rational answers. Alot of people struggle with these type of questions because no satisfactory answers are given to them. The Bible isn't shy in showing us these "horrible" events, therefore we shouldn't shy away either. Regards Snappy [;)] I have posted what I posted to him. If you have a problem with that, I am sorry. I try to be led by the Holy Spirit in what I post. Am I always correct? Absolutely not... But I would really prefer God to be leading me in what I post and not you attempting to correct me according to what you believe... I believe what I posted was directed by the Holy Spirit. If I am wrong, He is well able to show me...I would appreciate you to address his OP and not to try to convince me according to your beliefs... because the more you try to put your beliefs on me, the more I will turn a deaf ear to you which, BTW, I have already done...........

SnapDraggin -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/7/2008 3:52:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod I have posted what I posted to him. If you have a problem with that, I am sorry. I try to be led by the Holy Spirit in what I post. Am I always correct? Absolutely not... But I would really prefer God to be leading me in what I post and not you attempting to correct me according to what you believe... I believe what I posted was directed by the Holy Spirit. If I am wrong, He is well able to show me...I would appreciate you to address his OP and not to try to convince me according to your beliefs... because the more you try to put your beliefs on me, the more I will turn a deaf ear to you which, BTW, I have already done........... Hi CherishedbyGod, I do apologize if you feel I was trying to correct you or impose my beliefs onto you - that wasn't my intension. I feel strongly in trying to answer difficult questions according to Scripture, because leaving them unanswered, I feel, might confuse weak- or unbelievers. Job says it best.. Job 2:10 "...But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips..." In one of the above posts, VCO quoted Isaiah 45:21, but there is also a very interesting verse a few verses up.. Isa 45:7 "...I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things..." By not attending to these verses, might lead an unbeliever to wrong conclusions. I apologize. Regards Snappy

Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/7/2008 5:29:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod quote: ORIGINAL: SnapDraggin Victorwyant is asking very reasonable questions that deserves answers, instead of warnings. If some of these things are not answered, it's a though we are turning a blind eye towards it, without understanding traits in God's character. I'll give you a simple example.. Regards Snappy I think it best that you answer him and not me. I still believe it was best that I warn him instead of giving answers.....This person is in very dangerous territory, I believe... I am also very concerned that weak believers or unbelievers see his title and are driven away from God because of it.... I believe that God knows how to reach people and how to keep those He has reached. I don't understand these things in the Old Testament either. If there are explanations, how can we learn without asking questions?

DaveW -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/7/2008 7:14:51 AM)
We have too limited a picture of God and Who He is. "Would Jesus do that?" I would say yes. Read Acts 5 where God struck dead a man and his wife for lying. That is AFTER the resurrection. And what did HE tell his disciples? Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (i.e. to hell) Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; Paul writes in Romans 11 "Behold the goodness and severity of God..." You will find that double edged sword thruought scritpture. Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. Exo 20:5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, Exo 20:6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

ta_mosquito -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/7/2008 10:41:05 AM)
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jbow -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/7/2008 10:55:31 AM)
quote: 1) why God decides to kill these individuals? Is death really necessary, and more importantly, is this really consistent with his character (especially in the case of the wood gatherer). Would Jesus have killed them? Who do you think the God of the OT is? Jude 4-5 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. The Lord Jude is speaking of in both verses is the Lord Jesus. J

JimboFletch -> RE: Merciful God Is Beyond Man's Comprehension! (4/7/2008 11:09:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SnapDraggin Sometimes, if we do not delve into things, we will never know what God wants us to learn about Him.. Regards Snappy Dear Snappy, I've been a believer 41 years and I would like to share with you that there are some things we will never know about God this side of heaven. Someone much wiser than me once observed, "If we knew everything there is to know about God, then He wouldn't be God." [;)]

LCannon -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/7/2008 12:49:03 PM)
Early on the nation Israel was instructed by Jehovah there would be only two outcomes for the peoples inhabiting the Promised Land given the covenant, conversion as in Nineveh's case or destruction as Jericho. However, Israel 's resolve waned and didn't(or wouldn't) fulfill their part of the covenant and in fact intermarried. It wasn't an example of a 'merciless God' rather it was a curse; God cursed the union of Jew and gentile for both suffered the lack blessing and idolatry further diluting their influence among the world's population. �Whoever sacrifices to any god, save to the Lord only, shall be utterly destroyed."(Exodus 22:20) Psalms 106:34-"They did not destroy the peoples, as the Lord commanded them, 35 but they mingled with the nations and learned to do as they did. 36 They served their idols, which became a snare to them."

VCO -> RE: Merciful God Is Beyond Man's Comprehension! (4/7/2008 12:58:24 PM)
U&U I think the MAJOR reason we sometimes struggle with understanding WHY God allowed some to be killed, and WHY in some cases He ordered them to be killed, and WHY in other cases He personally dropped them dead on the spot; is an ERRONEOUS view of how bad our own sin is in the sight of God. In the sight of God, the most vicious mass murderer in all of History is not a worse sinner than us, WE ARE AS BAD AS HIM! Even one thought of sin is as bad as Adolf Hitler. THAT is how BAD God thinks sin is! AND even the single evil thought is worthy of not only physical death, but also the eternal "Second Death" of being tossed into the Lake of Fire (HELL). When we correct our view of how bad sin is, we then are AWED and Humbled by how Great God's MERCY is. Remember MERCY is "Not receiving what we deserve" and GRACE is "Receiving what we do not deserve." Matthew 5:21-22 (NKJV) 21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:27-28 (NKJV) 27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. James 2:10 (NIV) 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. Romans 7:24 (NKJV) 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 1 Timothy 1:15 (NKJV) 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. To understand the Wrath of God, we must first understand HOW BAD OUR OWN SIN IS, IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. Truely it is NOT a question of WHY did God do that to them; because it is a question of WHY has He NOT done it to us.

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/7/2008 1:31:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SnapDraggin quote: ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod I have posted what I posted to him. If you have a problem with that, I am sorry. I try to be led by the Holy Spirit in what I post. Am I always correct? Absolutely not... But I would really prefer God to be leading me in what I post and not you attempting to correct me according to what you believe... I believe what I posted was directed by the Holy Spirit. If I am wrong, He is well able to show me...I would appreciate you to address his OP and not to try to convince me according to your beliefs... because the more you try to put your beliefs on me, the more I will turn a deaf ear to you which, BTW, I have already done........... Hi CherishedbyGod, I do apologize if you feel I was trying to correct you or impose my beliefs onto you - that wasn't my intension. I feel strongly in trying to answer difficult questions according to Scripture, because leaving them unanswered, I feel, might confuse weak- or unbelievers. Job says it best.. Job 2:10 "...But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips..." In one of the above posts, VCO quoted Isaiah 45:21, but there is also a very interesting verse a few verses up.. Isa 45:7 "...I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things..." By not attending to these verses, might lead an unbeliever to wrong conclusions. I apologize. Regards Snappy No problem Snappy[;)] I appreciate you giving the OP'er the benefit of the doubt. The God of the OT is not merciless: Here is what He proclaims about Himself to Moses: And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin Exodus 34:5-7 So, to the OP, is your title "Merciless God....." correct? No. I do hope and pray you are able to get past your doubts. They are extremely difficult issues to wrestle with. But I pray you don't come to the conclusion that God is merciless. Because He is soooo merciful!!!!

dvfish -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/7/2008 2:40:33 PM)
I have been in the ministry for most of my life and I have asked similar questions -only to myself because I was afraid that it would be heresy to say it aloud! I now know that God is not afraid of any question that I have when I come to him genuinely seeking. Because the OT is a history of the nation of Israel we sometimes don't consider that God pronounces judgement on every nation of the world. The captivity of the Israelites came as discipline for sin. The destruction of other nations or tribes also came as discipline for sin - for although we have no Biblical record of how God speaks to other nations, we can be sure that He does speak and every person is responsible for what they do with the amount of knowledge and grace that God has revealed. I still don't know all the answers but because I trust the nature of God I know that He sees a much bigger picture than I will ever understand. As to the nature of God being unlike the nature of Jesus that is very true. Where God is just and will not allow sin to go unpunished, Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved. It is one of the mysteries of the trinity of God - three persons in one - the nature of each of the three is what makes them different. The Spirit, by nature convicts, draws, comforts, reproves, etc. The Father set the standard of holiness and desires a relationship with His creation but cannot accept anything but complete holiness. The Son left His place at the side of the Father to provide the only way a sin-filled human heart can be reconciled to a holy God. Jesus would never have killed even the gravest of sinners even if they deserved death because His mission was to save. God destroys evil because sin always hurts the children that He loves. Why does He use people to destroy others? I don't know but I think about Aaron being chosen as the high priest even after he had been the one to form the golden calf. From then on every year Aaron was required to make a sin offering for himself before he made an offering on behalf of the people. In Leviticus 9 it says his sacrifice was to be a calf! Every time Aaron performed the sacrifice he was reminded of the mercy of God toward him. Perhaps the men chosen to kill another needed to be reminded that they also deserved death and the God who sees all and knows all could see a bigger purpose than we can begin to comprehend. Keep searching and keep asking questions!

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Merciful God Is Beyond Man's Comprehension! (4/7/2008 4:02:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VCO U&U I think the MAJOR reason we sometimes struggle with understanding WHY God allowed some to be killed, and WHY in some cases He ordered them to be killed, and WHY in other cases He personally dropped them dead on the spot; is an ERRONEOUS view of how bad our own sin is in the sight of God. In the sight of God, the most vicious mass murderer in all of History is not a worse sinner than us, WE ARE AS BAD AS HIM! Even one thought of sin is as bad as Adolf Hitler. THAT is how BAD God thinks sin is! AND even the single evil thought is worthy of not only physical death, but also the eternal "Second Death" of being tossed into the Lake of Fire (HELL). When we correct our view of how bad sin is, we then are AWED and Humbled by how Great God's MERCY is. Remember MERCY is "Not receiving what we deserve" and GRACE is "Receiving what we do not deserve." Matthew 5:21-22 (NKJV) 21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:27-28 (NKJV) 27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. James 2:10 (NIV) 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. Romans 7:24 (NKJV) 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 1 Timothy 1:15 (NKJV) 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. To understand the Wrath of God, we must first understand HOW BAD OUR OWN SIN IS, IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. Truely it is NOT a question of WHY did God do that to them; because it is a question of WHY has He NOT done it to us. Supurb post....Thank you

Little_1 -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/8/2008 3:49:35 AM)
When you read the whole of Exodus Chapter 32 to find Exodus 32:7 in context (and even the whole book of Exodus for a better balanced picture) we realise just what the LORD God took the Children of Israel through! Despite God's loving grace and mercy towards them on countless occasions, they rebelled when difficulties came their way and turned back to their old ways; they even (in this example) 'worshipped' a golden calf! They accredited the great and mighty works of God leading them out of Egypt and slavery to this golden calf saying that the calf was their savior in effect! I cannot read this passage in Exodus Chapter 32 without thinking about another passage found in the New Testament: Hebrews Chapter 6 1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3And this will we do, if God permit. 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 10For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. 13For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, 14Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. 15And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. 17Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: 18That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: 19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; 20Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Can you see any similarities? The similarities I refer to have been highlighted (but really the whole passage is relevant). I believe that whilst God is a loving and merciful God - at the same time, He is not a fool! And He will not tolerate repeated sin where His Spirit has been revealed to man. To continually deny God's power as attributed to Him and to attribute that Holy Spirit power to anyone or anything other than God is blastphemy (which is the sin which leads to death and eternal separation from God). Going back to the passage in Exodus 22:9 - God did tell Moses that 'He' was going to destroy the rebellious Children of Israel but Moses pleaded with God not to and mercifully God gave them one more chance (Exodus 22:11-14) . However, the Children of Israel continued to rebel because you find that when Moses called to them to make a decision to follow God and come after Him - only the Levites agreed to do so and the others deliberately chose to deny God's guidance for their lives by not accepting the opportunity for mercy. There is a text somewhere in Exodus (I cannot think where it is off the top of my head) but it says that anyone who ascribes God's glory to other gods shall be put to death. God cannot lie and although He did not carry out the act of killing these rebellious people, they died as a result of God's Word having been spoken (another reminder that God's Word is powerful and should be highly respected). Furthermore, Moses had pleaded on behalf of these rebellious people and God spared them and gave them a chance to repent but they did not accept (as we know) and so Moses' righteous anger lined up with God's and resulted in him carrying out God's Word (i.e. those who ascribe God's glory to another god(s)will be put to death). The Children of Israel were not ignorant of God's Word concerning this Biblical warning and promise - so in fact they signed their own death certificates in effect but they thought they knew best and took their chance against Almighty God (and they did not win!)! Some people are uncomfortable with the fact that not everyone will escape eternal punishment but both these Biblical passages strongly suggest that this is the end thereof for those who have known God's Spirit at work in their lives and yet continually harden their necks against God's will! It is a fearsome thing to fall into the hands of the living God. We talk much of God's love, mercy and forgiveness (the comfortable bits) which are available to those who will call upon His name in repentance but God is also a God of wrath and this is not taught so much in our churches today - hence this thread and the troubled, sincere soul who posted it's questionings. I believe our Church Leaders are responsible for much of their people being led astray by not preaching the whole Word of God and all the attributes of God in balance. Woe to them! And likewise - those to whom God reveals this have a responsibility likewise. Children of God should be reminded by these passages that we do have an awesome responsibility in our relationship before Almighty God and to take such very seriously and repent of sin which the Holy Spirit reveals in our lives quickly so that we do not fall into the danger of hardening our hearts which is a serious condition which God does not take lightly. I believe also that we have a responsibility to pray for and warn people of this danger likewise if we see deliberate known sin being continued in a life of someone who has 'tasted of the things of God' as found in Hebrews Chapter 6 (please look again at the highlighted section of this passage above)! Continual denial of the Holy Spirit power at work in order to lead a person to repentance is a real danger of leading to blastphemy for which there is no forgiveness and no forgiveness means eternal separation from God. God's Word teaches us that His Spirit will not always strive with man. Now is the appointed time, now is the day of salvation.

WesP -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/8/2008 10:18:32 AM)
I have read through the posts, but I have not seen something I thought would be here. Forgive me if I missed it. Many things that happened in the OT were reinforcing the fact that following the law was an impossibility. There were severe punishments for adultery, sorcery, etc. The severity of punishments in the OT underscored just how bad those sins were against God. In the NT, those sins are still considered abominations, but through faith and repentance, we now have the blood of Christ to cleanse us. This was not present in the OT, thus sacrifices were made. However, they were repeated because they were unable to stand for all sins.

Little_1 -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/8/2008 11:31:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace I have read through the posts, but I have not seen something I thought would be here. Forgive me if I missed it...... I agree - quote: ...... Many things that happened in the OT were reinforcing the fact that following the law was an impossibility -- WesSavedByGrace. I totally agree with this last quote Wes; however, you may well have missed something else that is of vital importance: The Children of Israel were still invited to enter 'God's rest' (something separate from atonement for sin). It meant they were to trust in the LORD despite their circumstances something which you have perhaps missed by emphasizing on the 'sin' part (although not deliberately I'm sure). God has never expected us to be perfect and without sin (neither OT nor NT believers) and in the OT God required a means of atonement by sacrificial animal offerings (although such needed to be repeated many times as this was not a perfect means as you have already explained well). However, in the NT God has made a means of atonement which need never be repeated (which you likewise explained well). But there is still the matter of 'entering into God's rest' despite this. Q - What does 'entering God's rest' mean? A - It means trusting God in every circumstance of our lives. It means not depending on ourselves or others but dependance upon God alone. It means realising our all and all is found in Him. No confidence in ourselves but every confidence in God. Having our sins dealt with at Calvary by the atoning blood of Jesus is but the beginning. God wants us to have a close relationship and dependance upon Him. He wants us to rest in His love which means peace in adversity; joy in adversity; hope in adversity, etc - it means that truly NOTHING can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus - neither famine, nakedness, persecusions, losing everything we have, etc. It is not just knowing about it through what we are taught at church or Bible Study but experiencing this for oneself in REALITY whatever life brings across our paths. It is only known by the heart that is completely surrendered to God. Not my will but Thy will be done. Surrendering everything to God (all our desires, hopes, dreams, etc to whatever He would want to do in our lives is therefore the key to entering God's rest.

Jhud -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/8/2008 4:48:36 PM)
I think the primary question is, "Is it morally permissible for God to kill a person"? Understanding that death in this sense is 'causing the physical body to cease functioning', we see that we are really asking - Does God have the right to cause someone's body to cease functioning? To which I would answer, "Only if it was His to begin with". As Christian, I believe it is.

Bluethread -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/8/2008 5:14:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace I have read through the posts, but I have not seen something I thought would be here. Forgive me if I missed it. Many things that happened in the OT were reinforcing the fact that following the law was an impossibility. There were severe punishments for adultery, sorcery, etc. The severity of punishments in the OT underscored just how bad those sins were against God. In the NT, those sins are still considered abominations, but through faith and repentance, we now have the blood of Christ to cleanse us. This was not present in the OT, thus sacrifices were made. However, they were repeated because they were unable to stand for all sins. Heb 10:3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. The sacrifices were never intended to take away sin. They are meant to be an act of faith in the repentance process, forcing us to recognize the consequences of our actions. The blood of The Pesach(Sacrifice Lamb), that is Yeshua Ha Meshiach(Jesus the Messiah) cleaned the Patriarchs just as it cleanses us now, by faith. Thus made acceptable to Adonai, we are granted the privilige taking part in the developement of His community. Some may see some aspects of Adonai's social structures as cruel, but is our secular humanist society any better?

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