RE: Soul sleep?

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LoveYourEnemies -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/13/2008 8:44:12 AM)
Differing foundational beliefs of denominations leaves many of us in disagreement on certain points. Obviously, you believe the soul is immortal, capable of living outside the body for eternity. I do not follow this doctrine. However, I am not one to say I am right and you are wrong. Instead, I prefer to study out such differences, and like to see how others arrive at their conclusions. Unfortunately, I will be out for most of the day and do not have the time to get started on this just now. I will return to this tonight or tomorrow as time allows. Do we have two separate topics here, or does this fall under one topic? I think that they are definitely related. To get started, how about using the Bible to define "soul." I'm sure you have probably seen my version, which goes back to creation...body + breath = soul. You posted the verse which deals with the reverse, when man dies, the spirit/breath returns to God who gave it. I look forward to digging deeper into this study. I like to see how other people believe what they do and why, and maybe with stricter rules on this board, a more peaceful study may be possible. Most boards...people just fight over their differences, making it impossible to understand opposing viewpoints. I cannot accept or reject another belief unless I first understand it. My first question is...how do you define soul using the Bible...which leads to my second question...do you feel the soul is immortal, which I think is the major issue concerning soul sleep.

bob97 -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/13/2008 10:16:39 AM)
The body of Adam was an empty shell, inert and without life (a tent). All intelligences and life force entered the empty shell with the breath of God. These two forces, intelligence and spirit: form the soul. Just like a car carries a human. When the car will no longer function, the human leaves. When the body dies the soul leaves, spirit and intelligence return to God to await the new body, the immortal body. Bob

Godsone -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/13/2008 1:31:29 PM)
quote: These two forces, intelligence and spirit: form the soul. Just like a car carries a human. When the car will no longer function, the human leaves. WHOAH!!!

Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/14/2008 2:10:01 AM)
2 Corinthians 5:8. --We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. If, as some believe, both body and soul are made from the dust of the earth, the soul would return to dust when you die. But, instead, when believers are absent from the body, they are with the Lord. The body is in the grave and the soul is with the Lord! We all know that the flesh is mortal. "For which cause, we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day." (2 Corinthians 4:16) "We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; always bearing about in the body, the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh."(2 Corinthians 4:11) Christ said to him, "To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43) You will note, Christ didn't say, "Today you will die." But we do know that those who were crucified died. Someone had to remove the bodies from the crosses. The bodies were mortal. "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul;" Matthew 10:28 When your body is killed, your soul isn't!

LoveYourEnemies -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/15/2008 12:02:40 AM)
Let's take a close look at: Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Did you know the Bible wasn't written with punctuation? Let's remove it for a moment: Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him verily I say unto thee today shalt thou be with me in paradise. The translators had to decide where to put the punctuation. In this case, there is a slight problem that most people don't even think about. Read the following verse please: Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. How could the thief be in paradise with Jesus that day if Jesus had not yet ascended? Therefore, we can see that the comma was inserted into the wrong place. It should read as follows: Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise. Because we believe certain doctrines, we accept things at face value. This verse is a good example of such a common error. As for the first part of your posting, I'll assume that you believer the soul is immortal...correct? BTW...I didn't say body AND soul were made from the dust. Read the verse for yourself: Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Here is the reverse of that verse as you quoted it: Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it. Some translations substitute "breath of life" for the word "spirit in verse 7 above. The equation is: dust + breath = soul. The word soul is used numerous times in the Bible. Depending on which translation you use will determine how many times you see it. Yet, not once do you ever find "immortal soul" written in the Bible. Scripture says that only God has immortality. Also, read the following: Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Destroy "soul?" I thought it was supposed to be immortal, suffering after a 70 year life span for all of eternity. That certainly sounds fair of God to do..."I'll create you, and if you don't do what I like, I'll torture you forever and forever." Yep, that's a suitable punishment. God is a fair and just God. The punishment fits the crime. Reject me, suffer for trillions and trillions of years...and that is just the first second of eternity. Yep, that makes sense. Anybody see anything unusual about that?

bob97 -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/15/2008 12:43:34 AM)
quote: Reject me, suffer for trillions and trillions of years...and that is just the first second of eternity. Yep, that makes sense. Anybody see anything unusual about that? That is a little bit of a different discussion LoveYourEnemies but I have a solution for the problem...Accept Christ and don't worry about it. Bob

Soxfan -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/15/2008 9:36:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way The way soul sleep people get around that, of course, is that since there is no consciousness between death and heaven, be it an hour or a millennium, then it would still instantly "feel" like you died and ended up right in heaven. I guess they missed it when Jesus told the thief "TODAY, you will be with me in Paradise"

bob97 -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/15/2008 10:02:53 AM)
Did anyone ever stop to think...If Christ is in fact God and He was at that time on earth, does that mean Heaven was empty? I don't think so! Christ was the express image of God but I think God is still in Heaven so the thief upon death would have been in the presents of God . Bob

HisPriest -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/15/2008 3:41:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MND88 Hi everyone. I have always been taught that after we die we either got to heaven or to hell. Recently a friend of mines that is part of the SDA religion told me about soul sleep. I just wanted to know what biblical backup can I use to show that after we die, there is no soul sleep? Thanks everyone [:)] Is a good think that you ask, but is even better if you research the word of God. But first of all you need to pray so the Holy Spirit prepare your heart and your mind to take the truth; I notice that what you want to know is something to prove your friend wrong, instead you should be looking for truth don't you think so? What is the soul? according to the word of God Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. {of the dust...: Heb. dust of the ground} dust + breath of life = soul without the breath of life we are not soul Or breath of life without the dust there is no soul Notice that God give the dust in the form of Adam the breath of life, He did not give him a mind, He give adam life, and when we die, this breath of life goes back to the one who gave it; there is no "spiritual mind" that goes to heaven! just the power of God that keep us alive, returns to God Notice that every soul that dies the spirit goes back to God, good or evil! God is in heaven, think about it evil cannot be in heaven The Bible teach us the soul is not immortal

Aphobos -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/15/2008 4:05:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies Let's take a close look at: Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Did you know the Bible wasn't written with punctuation? Let's remove it for a moment: Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him verily I say unto thee today shalt thou be with me in paradise. The translators had to decide where to put the punctuation. True, but the translators didn't just cast lots to decide where the comma would go. Nor did they simply rest on human tradition. Responsible translators considered grammar and usage to determine where the comma belongs. Both of these not only justify but demand the reading as it is found in virtually every modern translation: "I tell you the truth, today..." The phrase "I tell you the truth" (Gk. amen soi lego) is an introductory expression. It is found 74 times in the New Testament. Jesus used it often, indicating that his authority was not derrived from any human teacher. He spoke with his own authority (Mk 1:27; Lu 4:32). Moreover, the phrase announced the gravity of the words to follow, demanding undivided attention. In almost every other instance, the phrase is NOT followed by "today" (Gk. semeron). Rather, it stands alone and is immediately followed by Jesus' teaching. Form: Introductory expression + teaching Example: "I tell you the truth + not one stone here will be left on another;" (Matt 24:2) There is one other place in scripture in which semeron appears near amen soi lego. It is found in Mark 14. "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "today�yes, tonight�before the rooster crows twice you yourself will disown me three times." (v. 30) I doubt, however, that any translator would suggest grouping "today" with "I tell you the truth" in this instance. And so, apart from Luke 23:43, the combination of "I tell you truth" and "today" is found nowhere else in the Bible. Yes, grammatically, it is possible to place the comma after the word "today". Yet in order to justify that placement, a translator would have to completely ignore every other way in which the phrase is used, insisting that it is an idiomatic expression without any support whatsoever. This would be grossly irresponsible. It seems obvious (and painfully so) that Jesus used the phrase in Luke 23 the same way he used it everywhere else. I tell you the truth + today, you will be with me in paradise. The only reason to translate it as you have suggested would be purely theological. If a "translator" comes to the text with an a priori belief in soul sleep, for example, he/she would have a theological interest in placing the comma after "today." But there is no linguistic warrant for doing so. The New World Translation (or NWT, the Bible of the Jehovah's Witnesses) is a case in point. Interestingly enough, even the NWT with its obvious theological bias still places the comma immediately after "I tell you the truth" in 73 of the 74 instances it is found. quote: In this case, there is a slight problem that most people don't even think about. Read the following verse please: Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. How could the thief be in paradise with Jesus that day if Jesus had not yet ascended? Therefore, we can see that the comma was inserted into the wrong place. It should read as follows: Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise. Because we believe certain doctrines, we accept things at face value. This verse is a good example of such a common error. Christ was/is both human and divine: fully God and fully man. This needs to be understood (if not fully comprehended) in order to appreciate how Jesus could go to paradise and yet remain in the tomb. His humanity remained in the grave for three days. His divintiy, in stark contrast, cannot not be confined by time and space. While this is certainly a mystery, it is nonetheless perfectly logical. quote: Destroy "soul?" I thought it was supposed to be immortal, suffering after a 70 year life span for all of eternity. Your assumption is that 'destroy' always means 'annihilate'. This is an unwarranted assumption. The Greek verb apollumi can also mean "to bring to ruin," "to put out of the way," or "to be lost." For example, Jesus tells his disciples to go "to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matt 10:26). Obviously, he's not telling them that the sheep of Israel are annihilated. Again, in Romans 14:15, Paul admonishes the reader: "For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died." Paul is not suggesting that we annihilate people by eating foods to which they object. As always, context is key. Words are not monolithic, having a single solitary meaning that obtains in every context. Rather, they have a semantic range. The word 'soul' (Gk. psuche, Heb. nephesh) also has a range of meaning. Sometimes, it refers to the whole person -- both mortal body and immortal soul. At other times, it refers specifically to the immortal aspect of human nature in contrast to the body (as in Matthew 10:28). quote: That certainly sounds fair of God to do..."I'll create you, and if you don't do what I like, I'll torture you forever and forever." Yep, that's a suitable punishment. God is a fair and just God. The punishment fits the crime. Reject me, suffer for trillions and trillions of years...and that is just the first second of eternity. Yep, that makes sense. Anybody see anything unusual about that? People don't suffer eternal punishment for rejecting Christ. Rather, they suffer on account of their sin. Rejecting Christ is one of many sins for which a person might be punished eternally. It may not be possible for us to fully appreciate the gravity of our sin because we are not holy in the sense that God is Holy. To God, a Perfect and Holy Being, even the slightest sin is an infinite offense. As you stated, the punishment should fit the crime. That is the quintessence of justice, and God is certainly Just. An infinte offense, therefore, merits an infinite punishment. That is the reality of Hell. If it offends our fallen human sensibilities, so be it. It is nevertheless the truth revealed in scripture. God will not cease to be Just in order to avoid offending us. In Christ, ~Aphobos

Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/15/2008 6:05:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies Let's take a close look at: Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Yes, my Bible says that. quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies Did you know the Bible wasn't written with punctuation? Yes, I've known that for quite some time. quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies Let's remove it for a moment: Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him verily I say unto thee today shalt thou be with me in paradise. The translators had to decide where to put the punctuation. In this case, there is a slight problem that most people don't even think about. Read the following verse please: Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. No problem. I've known that verse for sometime, too. quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies How could the thief be in paradise with Jesus that day if Jesus had not yet ascended? Jesus, Who always spoke the truth, said, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." Jesus did not say, "Today shalt thou see the Father." quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies Therefore, we can see that the comma was inserted into the wrong place. No, Sir, I don't believe that. quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies Because we believe certain doctrines, we accept things at face value. I don't just accept things. I get my doctrine from the Bible. quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies This verse is a good example of such a common error. I doubt that. quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies I didn't say body AND soul were made from the dust. Read the verse for yourself: Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Yes, I've read that. You have to read the rest of the Bible to decide what that means. quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies Here is the reverse of that verse as you quoted it: Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it. Some translations substitute "breath of life" for the word "spirit in verse 7 above. The equation is: dust + breath = soul. You have to let scripture interpret scripture. quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies The word soul is used numerous times in the Bible. Depending on which translation you use will determine how many times you see it. Yet, not once do you ever find "immortal soul" written in the Bible. We don't have to see the two words together. I don't see lots of words that are descriptions of what the scripture teaches. The word "trinity" isn't in the Bible. Does that take away the one and only true God? He is triune. What about the word "missionary?" quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies Scripture says that only God has immortality. No scripture doesn't say, "Only God has immortality." It says: Genesis 17 7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. You will note that God made this statement after the flood. Before the flood this everlasting covenant didn't exist. Psalm 90 2Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies quote: ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32 Also, read the following: Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Destroy "soul?" I thought it was supposed to be immortal, suffering after a 70 year life span for all of eternity. That certainly sounds fair of God to do..."I'll create you, and if you don't do what I like, I'll torture you forever and forever." Yep, that's a suitable punishment. God is a fair and just God. The punishment fits the crime. Reject me, suffer for trillions and trillions of years...and that is just the first second of eternity. Yep, that makes sense. Anybody see anything unusual about that? God is holy. Man is sinful and deserves eternal punishment. Who are you to tell God that eternal torture is unjust? Romans 9 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? A lot of people don't like that verse. They want it to say something else. I often see people mock the Bible because it tells us about eternal punishment. God makes the rules. If these people could write the rules, they'd change them. "Thou hatest all workers of iniquity" (Psalm 5:5). Do you believe that verse? "The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" (Isaiah 33:14) The punishment fits the crime because God knows the gravity of the crime. Men try to make light of it. They want to break the rules and get off with a lighter sentence. Humans just can't understand the kindness and severity of God. Why does He save people who don't deserve to be saved? Matthew 25 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. "Depart from Me, ye cursed into everlasting fire" (Matthew 25:41). Was Jesus kidding or will you try to redefine what He said? Do you believe that this earth will be turned into a lake of fire at the Day of Judgment? Will Satan and his angels as well as evil men be annihilated by this fire?

meerkat -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/15/2008 7:28:36 PM)
Aphobos, quote: People don't suffer eternal punishment for rejecting Christ. Rather, they do so on account of their sin. Rejecting Christ is one of many sins. It may not be possible for us to fully appreciate the gravity of our sin because we are not holy in the sense that God is Holy. To God, a Perfect and Holy Being, even the slightest sin is an infinite offense. As you stated, the punishment should fit the crime. That is the quintessence of justice, and God is certainly Just. An infinte offense, therefore, merits an infinite punishment. That is the reality of Hell. If it offends our fallen human sensibilities, so be it. It is nevertheless the truth revealed in scripture. God will not cease to be Just in order to avoid offending sinful creatures. This argument seems to be a theology or view rather than quoting what scripture actually says. Some questions/comments regarding your statements:- quote: People don't suffer eternal punishment for rejecting Christ. Rather, they do so on account of their sin. Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Adam was told that he would die because he had sinned not that he would be eternally punished. quote: Sometimes, it refers to the whole person -- both mortal body and immortal soul. We don't have an immortal soul - the wages of sin is death, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God - if something is immortal it can not die. That is what immortality is. Mortal means it dies / immortal means it doesn't die. Immortality comes later with the resurrection through Jesus - I am the way, the truth, the life, no man comes to the Father but by me. 1 Corinthians 15:21- For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. When reading this passages it seems that people stop the order of things being made alive in Christ at those that are Christs at his coming but what this says is that after that will come "the end" where all that are not Christs (enemies) will be put beneath his feet and all things shall be subdued unto him. John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 1 peter 4:5-6 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. To me these passages seem to relate to each other about death - judgement - life.

Aphobos -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/16/2008 1:18:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meerkat This argument seems to be a theology or view rather than quoting what scripture actually says. Actually, it is both. The statement outlines my theology, which in turn is derived from what scripture teaches. My comments were intended to clarify a misunderstanding in a previous post (one in which scripture references were also lacking). If you would like, I can provide the biblical support for my position. That is, if you're willing to consider the evidence with an open mind. quote: Some questions/comments regarding your statements:- quote: People don't suffer eternal punishment for rejecting Christ. Rather, they do so on account of their sin. Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Death, in scripture, is a separation of sorts. In physical death, the soul is separated from the body. In spiritual death, man is separated from God. God said to Adam: "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen 3:16b-17) Did Adam fall dead in the day that he ate of the tree? No. So, then, either God is a liar or death in that instance was not physical. In fact, it was a spiritual death. Adam was separated spiritually from God -- a fact that is underscored by his expulsion from Eden. Since the entire race was included in Adam when he fell (1 Cor 15:22a), all human beings are born spiritually dead (cf. Eph 2:1-ff). By nature, we are objects of wrath, separated from God and at enmity with Him (Rom 5:10; Col 1:21). Through Christ, the broken relationship is repaired. Man and God, separated on account of sin, are reconciled through the gospel. Paul even refers to it as the "ministry of reconciliation." "All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them." (2 Cor 5:18-19a) In Christ, the spiritually dead are brought to life. This is the first resurrection (Eph 2:5; Rev 20:6). Having been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, they need not fear the second death -- eternal separation from God in Hell (Rev 20:14-15). quote: Adam was told that he would die because he had sinned not that he would be eternally punished. Revelation is progressive. God told Eve that her seed would crush the serpent's head, but that the serpent would strike his heal. God did not tell her that thousands of years later, He would become a man within her lineage, that He would defeat Satan by dying a horrible death on a Roman cross, and that in doing so He would overcome death for all men. Nevertheless, both statements are true. Likewise, the curse against sin is rudimentary in form. Only through later revelation do we understand the gravity of our predicament in Adam, that our sin merits eternal separation from God in Hell. Again, this revelation is progressive -- not contradictory. In Him, ~Aphobos

Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/16/2008 1:32:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 Did anyone ever stop to think...If Christ is in fact God and He was at that time on earth, does that mean Heaven was empty? I don't think so! Christ was the express image of God but I think God is still in Heaven so the thief upon death would have been in the presents of God . Bob Don't you mean in the presence of God the Son? The day that Christ died he hadn't ascended to the Father. Was paradise in Hades at that time???

Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/16/2008 2:35:03 AM)
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23) 1. spirit 2. soul 3. body We know that when we die, our body (which was made from dust) is put in the grave. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8) quote: ORIGINAL: HisPriest What is the soul? according to the word of God Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. {of the dust...: Heb. dust of the ground} dust + breath of life = soul without the breath of life we are not soul Or breath of life without the dust there is no soul Notice that God give the dust in the form of Adam the breath of life, He did not give him a mind, He give adam life, and when we die, this breath of life goes back to the one who gave it; there is no "spiritual mind" that goes to heaven! just the power of God that keep us alive, returns to God 1 Peter 3 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Are the spirits only breath? How can they hear His preaching?

HisPriest -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/16/2008 2:30:14 PM)
If you really accept your doctrine only from the Bible, than you must accept that the comma goes after �today� or you will make Jesus a liar, to insult God is a very terrible thing don�t you think so? See, Jesus did not went to heaven, and paradise is in heaven without any doubts; Jesus did not resurrected the same day He die, nor the next day but on Sunday; So, or Jesus is a liar, or the Bible has mistakes, or the comma in the wrong place. Your choice, but the truth is clear.

bob97 -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/16/2008 2:36:43 PM)
The soul of Christ went where ever He wanted to go immediately upon His physical death. To say that He did not go to paradise or return to the Father is rather a shallow statement. Bob

URForgiven -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/16/2008 2:41:21 PM)
It's the whole space/time continuum thing that is throwin' ya'll off...I'm tellin' ya. [8\|]

meerkat -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/16/2008 3:06:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 The soul of Christ went where ever He wanted to go immediately upon His physical death. To say that He did not go to paradise or return to the Father is rather a shallow statement. Bob But after Jesus was resurrected he said "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17

JimboFletch -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/16/2008 3:15:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meerkat quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 The soul of Christ went where ever He wanted to go immediately upon His physical death. To say that He did not go to paradise or return to the Father is rather a shallow statement. Bob But after Jesus was resurrected he said "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17 Protestants and Catholics alike have always considered heaven and paradise to be two different locations until after Christ's ascension.

Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/16/2008 5:32:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch Protestants and Catholics alike have always considered heaven and paradise to be two different locations until after Christ's ascension. That's what I thought because the souls of people that God hadn't taken to heaven would have had to be somewhere. Now if Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison, those people hadn't ceased to exist. They were somewhere and they would understand what He was saying. They weren't just dust in the earth. The Bible talks about Abaddon, Hades, heaven, hell, Paradise, Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna and the lake of fire. We should sort those places out!

LoveYourEnemies -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/19/2008 12:01:52 AM)
My apologies to all who replied to my comments...I've had to go through a difficult certification process for my business and it was all consuming this week. I haven't had any time to read here at all. I'll hit a few things tonight, and return tomorrow. From Eph 4.... quote: 1-No scripture doesn't say, "Only God has immortality." 2- If a "translator" comes to the text with an a priori belief... 3- I don't just accept things. I get my doctrine from the Bible. Point #1: 1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen. I think this verse says everything quite clear on this point. I don't see how anyone could refute that. More supporting evidence that we aren't immortal: 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. If the soul is immortal, why then do we need a resurrection? We are already in heaven. But what then do we do with this verse... Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Ahhh...let's play with definitions again, we have to, that is the only way to make things fit our belief systems. Let me explain. All of us, (me included) have a certain set of beliefs which were taught to us. These beliefs determine how we read/interpret the Bible. Yet we all say the exact same thing (see points 2 & 3 above). We all get our doctrine from the Bible. May I ask this...how is it we all believe something different if we get our beliefs/doctrines from the Bible. I get my beliefs from the Bible too. Every doctrinal belief system for every Church is built much like a brick wall is built. The foundation is set, then each brick (certain doctrine-such as immortal soul, or what happens when we die) is carefully laid in place, building upon the foundation. When the wall is finished, all bricks should be of the same size and color for the wall to be in harmony in appearance (belief). The problem is, although we all claim that the Bible is our foundation, each Church has a different foundational belief to their wall that determines how they will interpret the Bible. If I believe the 10 Commandments still stand, I will see the Bible/NT in a much different light than one who believes they have been abolished. We cannot help but arrive at different conclusions, as our conclusions must be colored by the foundation that has been put in place. What happens on forums is that people try to take a brick out of someone else's wall, and replace it with their own brick. But the bricks are different sizes and colors depending on which Church built the wall in the first place. For me to pull out one of your blue bricks and replace it with one of my red bricks means that your wall is no longer a harmony of blue color, meaning the understanding is no longer in harmony, therefore it cannot be accepted, and no amount of reasoning will change the position of another. Any such discussion of any doctrinal belief can only be solved by going back to the foundation upon which the belief is built. We must all search to see if our foundation is correct. There are over 400 denominations. Only one can be right. None of us know which Church that is, but we all believe that our Church is correct. There is now one problem...if you believe you are right, and I believe I am right, and we believe something different, and another person walks into the room who believes yet something else entirely different...what do we do now? Point fingers at each other and argue over who is right? That won't solve anything...which is why there are endless pages of discussions on various topics on this and many other boards. So what do we do now? I say we look for the foundation, let's dig down to the bottom and work our way up. The problem is, no one really knows how to determine what the real foundation is. I'm going to start in one place for the moment. The Bible says that only God has immortality. What do we do with that statement? How can we be immortal (souls) if only God has immortality (and yes, I have already quoted the verse I was told did not exist). And how can the soul be destroyed if it is immortal. These two verses that I have quoted in this posting seem to be irrefutable, yet I know someone will find an explanation, so let's hear it please. I can say it is light outside...and someone could easily say I meant that I meant is isn't heavy because that is one of the definitions of light. So someone will tell me that destroy doesn't mean destroy because there are numerous meanings to the word. Wow...(as I slap my forehead), I could have had a V-8. But you see, you have to reach for that interpretation because of your belief system, just I automatically do the same thing. Who can study the Bible for what it says without doing that? I say that all of us will have a problem with that. BUT...the Bible does say that only God has immortality. Seems like a good starting point, but I am sure someone has a better starting point that shows that we are immortal, even though the Bible clearly says only God is immortal. So now what? Anything else other than God being immortal is a contradiction. How can that be? Let's dig in deep and see what happens please. This should be interesting.

meerkat -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/19/2008 2:09:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aphobos quote: ORIGINAL: meerkat This argument seems to be a theology or view rather than quoting what scripture actually says. Actually, it is both. The statement outlines my theology, which in turn is derived from what scripture teaches. My comments were intended to clarify a misunderstanding in a previous post (one in which scripture references were also lacking). If you would like, I can provide the biblical support for my position. That is, if you're willing to consider the evidence with an open mind. quote: Some questions/comments regarding your statements:- quote: People don't suffer eternal punishment for rejecting Christ. Rather, they do so on account of their sin. Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Death, in scripture, is a separation of sorts. In physical death, the soul is separated from the body. In spiritual death, man is separated from God. God said to Adam: "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen 3:16b-17) Did Adam fall dead in the day that he ate of the tree? No. So, then, either God is a liar or death in that instance was not physical. In fact, it was a spiritual death. Adam was separated spiritually from God -- a fact that is underscored by his expulsion from Eden. Since the entire race was included in Adam when he fell (1 Cor 15:22a), all human beings are born spiritually dead (cf. Eph 2:1-ff). By nature, we are objects of wrath, separated from God and at enmity with Him (Rom 5:10; Col 1:21). Through Christ, the broken relationship is repaired. Man and God, separated on account of sin, are reconciled through the gospel. Paul even refers to it as the "ministry of reconciliation." "All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them." (2 Cor 5:18-19a) I am with you up to here. In Christ, the spiritually dead are brought to life. This is the first resurrection (Eph 2:5; Rev 20:6). Having been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, they need not fear the second death -- eternal separation from God in Hell (Rev 20:14-15). If you believe that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected and follow him and obey you are saved from wrath and are a new creature 2Cor 5:17 - The first resurrection is those that are Christ's at his coming and will not be hurt of the second death. 1Cor 15:23 Rev 2:11 They have crucified the flesh and are walking in the spirit. Gal 5:24-25 quote: Adam was told that he would die because he had sinned not that he would be eternally punished. Revelation is progressive. God told Eve that her seed would crush the serpent's head, but that the serpent would strike his heal. God did not tell her that thousands of years later, He would become a man within her lineage, that He would defeat Satan by dying a horrible death on a Roman cross, and that in doing so He would overcome death for all men. Nevertheless, both statements are true. Likewise, the curse against sin is rudimentary in form. Only through later revelation do we understand the gravity of our predicament in Adam, that our sin merits eternal separation from God in Hell. Again, this revelation is progressive -- not contradictory. Revelation may be progressive but it does not contradict what has already been revealed it adds to it. If God tells me that the wages of sin is death and that it is spiritual death - it would not mean that it is eternal torture - it would be spiritual death. We are told in 1 peter 4:5-6 We shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. To me that seems to say there is sin and death - then there is judgement (rewards/punishment(chastisement) - then spiritual life In revelation 20:12 The dead are being judged - they are not (spiritually) alive at the time they are being judged. Any that are not in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. The torment is happening in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb - Is that connected to the fact that God is a consuming fire? Another question I have - is this a progression of what is happening to those that worship the beast/receive the mark (and are not Christs at his coming)? Is this when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess? Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50 Salt [is] good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another. 1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy [are ye]; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or [as] a thief, or [as] an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. 16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. It seems to me that salvation is saved from wrath, that the wrath of God is against the flesh and sin, then after that will come life in the spirit.

Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/19/2008 6:27:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies My apologies to all who replied to my comments...I've had to go through a difficult certification process for my business and it was all consuming this week. I haven't had any time to read here at all. I'll hit a few things tonight, and return tomorrow. From Eph 4.... quote: 1-No scripture doesn't say, "Only God has immortality." (see NOTE below) 2- If a "translator" comes to the text with an a priori belief... 3- I don't just accept things. I get my doctrine from the Bible. Point #1: 1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen. I think this verse says everything quite clear on this point. I don't see how anyone could refute that. God is a spirit. We have both spirit and physical bodies. Our physical body dies. Our bodies aren't immortal:* 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies If the soul is immortal, why then do we need a resurrection? We are already in heaven. Our souls aren't in heaven if we are alive on earth. We will be resurrected because God promises that. quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies But what then do we do with this verse... Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Men can't kill our souls. Our souls survive the death of the body: Hezekiah said, �But thou hast in love to my soul (nephesh) delivered it from the pit of corruption� (Isaiah 38:17). �saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God� (Revelation 6:9). quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies Let me explain. All of us, (me included) have a certain set of beliefs which were taught to us. These beliefs determine how we read/interpret the Bible. Yet we all say the exact same thing (see points 2 & 3 above). We all get our doctrine from the Bible. May I ask this...how is it we all believe something different if we get our beliefs/doctrines from the Bible. I get my beliefs from the Bible too. Interpretation is guided by the Holy Spirit. quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies The problem is, although we all claim that the Bible is our foundation, each Church has a different foundational belief to their wall that determines how they will interpret the Bible. If I believe the 10 Commandments still stand, I will see the Bible/NT in a much different light than one who believes they have been abolished. We cannot help but arrive at different conclusions, as our conclusions must be colored by the foundation that has been put in place. Yeah, well, are you going to tell us that you've found the one true church? I don't believe I'm relying on a church for truth. I'm relying on the Holy Spirit to guide me in my understanding of the Bible. quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies Any such discussion of any doctrinal belief can only be solved by going back to the foundation upon which the belief is built. We must all search to see if our foundation is correct. There are over 400 denominations. Only one can be right. Or none. Generally, the churches that claim to be the one true church are further from truth than the rest! quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies None of us know which Church that is, but we all believe that our Church is correct. There is now one problem...if you believe you are right, and I believe I am right, and we believe something different, and another person walks into the room who believes yet something else entirely different...what do we do now? Point fingers at each other and argue over who is right? That won't solve anything...which is why there are endless pages of discussions on various topics on this and many other boards. So what do we do now? We go to scripture and rely on the Holy Spirit! And you will still claim that your interpretation is right. quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies I say we look for the foundation, let's dig down to the bottom and work our way up. The problem is, no one really knows how to determine what the real foundation is. The Bible is very clear about our foundation: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:11) quote: ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies I'm going to start in one place for the moment. The Bible says that only God has immortality. What do we do with that statement? How can we be immortal (souls) if only God has immortality (and yes, I have already quoted the verse I was told did not exist). And how can the soul be destroyed if it is immortal. These two verses that I have quoted in this posting seem to be irrefutable, yet I know someone will find an explanation, so let's hear it please. The Bible indicates that the soul of man is immortal. It is his body that goes to the grave. The body appears to be sleeping; only God can see our to spirits. James says the body without the spirit is dead not the spirit itself: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26) The meek shall eat and be satisfied; they shall praise the Lord that seek him; your heart shall live forever.(Psalm 22:26) * NOTE: I've just had surgery, I'm on medication for pain, and I've not slept well. I hope some Christian apologists will respond when I'm not able.

LoveYourEnemies -> RE: Soul sleep? (4/19/2008 10:11:00 AM)
Meerkat, You wrote: quote: The torment is happening in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb - Is that connected to the fact that God is a consuming fire? Thanks for posting that comment. As many times as I have read that verse, this point has somehow escaped me.

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