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So then by your logic the earth could have been sitting there cooling and forming for an undetermined period prior to light being created?

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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JESUS dealt with men who purported to teach God's word; only he focused upon one aspect of men's teaching; the source. It must always go back to "WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURE?"

And where specifically does Scripture say time existed before the universe did?

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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So then by your logic the earth could have been sitting there cooling and forming for an undetermined period prior to light being created?

I will admit, EverLearning, that verse 2 is the most puzzling one in Genesis 1 for me. It seems to me that the most reasonable explanation is that the Hebrew word erets is used to designate matter or substance, not the planet earth itself. Indeed, planetary earth could not have already been formed before the creation of light since God's account specifically states that erets was formless, empty, and dark - that's not describing any planet I'm familiar with. So, I think that erets in this verse refers to some sort of proto-substance that God was nuturing to create reality by placing it in time and space. I'm certainly open for other suggestions - YEC oriented, of course! [;)]

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Well, no, that ‘beginning’ refers to the inception of the material universe and time; obviously not to God. Indeed, Scripture affirms that God existed casually prior to time:

Jude 1:25 - to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever.

"Time" in the Greek is "chronos" [Acts 1:7] not aionos. Aionos is "age. So Jude is saying "To the only God our saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority before all the age, and now, and unto all the ages."

"All time" is not a consideration in the referent passage.

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"Before," and "began" are both a reference to time and its relation to event, in this case, "event" referencing creation, a process involving six "days," whatever that may mean.

Well, the problem is that time, as we understand it, is the passage of events – things change as those events transpire, so we talk about our movement around the sun as a ‘year’ and the earth’s revolution as a ‘day’ – but God isn’t subject to such events, He isn’t defined by the passage of time. When we say God existed ‘before’ the beginning of the universe, that is a casual description, not a temporal one.

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To insist that God created "time" or somehow existed "outside of time," makes the account recorded in Proverbs chapter eight, suspect at least.

Not at all, though I will make this caveat; our view of God’s existence in terms of time has to do with our view of time itself. If time is a continuum – that is, if any point in time is equally real, and that the order of time is merely a continuum, then God can exist outside of time.

If time is dynamic, that is if the past no longer exits and the future is only potential, then God would be temporal in relation to the universe.

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And again, my friend, where is your scriptural reference for God creating time?

Well, if time is an aspect of the material universe, as say for example gravity is, or dimensions are, then every Scriptural reference that indicates God created the material universe is also a reference to the creation of time.

But believing that God exist in time is in a sense to subject God to something that is greater than He is; and that rather diminishes God from the way Scripture describes Him I would think.

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ORIGINAL: theo_book

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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JESUS dealt with men who purported to teach God's word; only he focused upon one aspect of men's teaching; the source. It must always go back to "WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURE?"

And where specifically does Scripture say time existed before the universe did?

Where specifically does scripture say God is not a spider?

That is not the way scripture works. You do not base faith on what is not said. It is based on a deep abiding trust in what is said, by evidence of things not seen.

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ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace

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ORIGINAL: theo_book

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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JESUS dealt with men who purported to teach God's word; only he focused upon one aspect of men's teaching; the source. It must always go back to "WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURE?"

And where specifically does Scripture say time existed before the universe did?

Where specifically does scripture say God is not a spider?

That is not the way scripture works. You do not base faith on what is not said. It is based on a deep abiding trust in what is said, by evidence of things not seen.

LOL! Scripture says that God is eternal. Where is this time thing you speak of in reference to God? When did His time begin? [:D]

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Where specifically does scripture say God is not a spider?

That is not the way scripture works. You do not base faith on what is not said. It is based on a deep abiding trust in what is said, by evidence of things not seen.

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As for your question, "God is" references how long God has been. As long as time itself. You will find no reference in scripture that shows God creating time.

Even the effort to establish light as time fails in light of scripture. They are not the same. That would presume God existed only so long as light existed, which denies the very premise that God existed in time to say "let there be light.

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ORIGINAL: theo book

Where specifically does scripture say God is not a spider?

That is not the way scripture works. You do not base faith on what is not said. It is based on a deep abiding trust in what is said, by evidence of things not seen.

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Well, this is the primary problem with your reasoning; you claim to be appealing to Scripture in terms of when or whether time began, but you can cite no Scripture that talks about time beginning or always existing. And when others claim that time began when the universe began, you claim they aren't basing such a notion on Scripture!

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So what we are left with a rather limited description of time from a a Scriptural perspective. As I have pointed out, Jude says that Christ existed 'before' time.

Jude 1:25 - to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever.

This could not be unless time came into existence at some point.

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Also I think lacking in this conversation is a coherent notion of what time is.

Obviously it exists. Obviously, it is a property of this universe.

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It isn't clear that it could exist outside of this universe where God must reside, and indeed, there is much we understand about the universe to suggest it really can't exist outside this universe, at least not as it does here.

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So what you need to do then theo-book is proffer a reasonable definition of time, demonstrate that time as you have defined it can exist apart from the universe as it is, and that Scripture supports this notion.
I wish you well.

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ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace

theo,

I do not argue the whole light thing. It is pointless in view of God's power. Since you speculate that God has existed as long as time, when did He begin? How did that happen? Was there suddenly time and an omnipotent (with your exclusions) being that snapped into existence?

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Why is it you can accept "God always was" but balk at the concept "time always was." Just because commentators are befuddled does not mean Christians are to follow their folly.

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Not quite my friend. I am not appealing to scripture for when time began, for scripture is silent upon the subject. What I am saying is scripture's silence on the subject demands our silence as well.

To say "God is" or quote God saying "I am (who am)" itself tells you time existed in which God "IS." Nothing can "BE" if there is not time in which or during which one "is." Time is as old as God. And your earlier remark (I think it was you who posted it) that to be eternal has nothing to do with time, that being eternal is not the same as being old, misses the significance of both concepts. Eternal, old, and age, ALL relate to time.

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"Age" and "old" both relate to how much time a person is perceived to have in his past, while "eternal" means in its simplest form, "age lasting." It has nothing to do with "beyond time."

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As I have previously pointed out, "time" is xronos in Greek, not aionos, which is "age." And the verse is adressed TO God, THROUGH our saviour Jeuss Christ, so it is GOD to whom glory, majesty, dominion, and authority before all age are attributed, NOT JESUS CHRIST.

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And God certainly functioned prior to anything remotely perceived as "an age" so far as men are concerned.

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That time is a property of this universe is not "obvious" to me. Quite the contrary, this universe is a property of Time and God's eternal purpose. God created the universe in time, not time in the universe.

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Clarify please! Are you saying "this universe where God must reside?" Or are you saying "exist outside of htis universe where God must reside?"

Now it seems God is limited by his creation! If you say "God must reside in this universe," You say there is a place God cannot go. If you say God must reside outside this universe, you deny him place within the universe.
Both are incorrect. It still requires clarification so I know with which perception I must deal.

What do you understand to be the focus of "That God may be all in all?" Is there some boundary to the universe beyond which God cannot "be?" Reference please!

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Time is that notion of "when" during which God is, and contemplates, and acts, and functions as God. He cannot do anything or "Be" anything outside of "when," which is a reference to time.

Once more, time has always been, and will always be. It is not a construct. It is necessary for function, however infinitessimal, however irregarded; if there is "be" there must also be "When" to be.

Is this really so difficult to comprehend?

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Also, if there is always a ‘when’, then please tell us when God began.

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As I have previously pointed out, "time" is xronos in Greek, not aionos, which is "age." And the verse is adressed TO God, THROUGH our saviour Jeuss Christ, so it is GOD to whom glory, majesty, dominion, and authority before all age are attributed, NOT JESUS CHRIST.

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ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace

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Why is it you can accept "God always was" but balk at the concept "time always was." Just because commentators are befuddled does not mean Christians are to follow their folly.

The only way for this to be possible is for time to run in both directions: past and future. That being said, it negates the principle definition of time. Therefore, it is not time. You see?

For several definitions of time, see here.

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And I do not see that it must be bi-directional to have always been functioning.

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ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace

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And I do not see that it must be bi-directional to have always been functioning.

So what duration was first?

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ORIGINAL: theo_book

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ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace

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And I do not see that it must be bi-directional to have always been functioning.

So what duration was first?

NOW!

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I have said all that is necessary to understand my position. Time references the "when" during which events happen. It is a "duration," a passage of available "during"ness by which to get things accomplished, or to block the accomplishment of things.

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Attention moderators. Any chance we can get an emoticon with a person sucking his finger while in a fetal position?

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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Attention moderators. Any chance we can get an emoticon with a person sucking his finger while in a fetal position?

That is an excellent suggestion.

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I was hoping for one with a guy inspecting the contents of his nose. But it might require too many bytes.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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Not quite my friend. I am not appealing to scripture for when time began, for scripture is silent upon the subject. What I am saying is scripture's silence on the subject demands our silence as well.

To say "God is" or quote God saying "I am (who am)" itself tells you time existed in which God "IS." Nothing can "BE" if there is not time in which or during which one "is." Time is as old as God. And your earlier remark (I think it was you who posted it) that to be eternal has nothing to do with time, that being eternal is not the same as being old, misses the significance of both concepts. Eternal, old, and age, ALL relate to time.

First off, we don’t use the ‘silence’ of Scripture to justify our positions; know one can say something is so because Scripture doesn’t say it is otherwise, which is just what you are doing. I can’t for example say gravity doesn’t exist when Scripture is silent on the matter; in the same way, I can’t say ‘time always was’ simply because Scripture doesn’t say otherwise.

Oh. And what then were you doing when you posted "Time began when the universe began, so as much as you believe God created the universe, you also believe He created time," in post number six?

Is it not an appeal to the silence of scriptures?

And when I showed from the scriptures that some actions predated the Gen 1 account, showing that time existed prior to Gen 1's record of the creation, it is not the silence of scriptures to which I appeal, but to the clearly stated historical account [Prov 8] of what took place and in what order.

So far it has not been refuted, only disagreed with.

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"Age" and "old" both relate to how much time a person is perceived to have in his past, while "eternal" means in its simplest form, "age lasting." It has nothing to do with "beyond time."

But to put it more succinctly, when you say, “Time is as old as God” it shows how nonsensical your notion is, because time must be measured in some sort of units – days, months, seconds, nano-seconds, what have you. These are all product of changes in a sequence of events – if nothing changed, the idea of time would be meaningless.

Well, I don't think "nano-seconds" is a product of the universe so much as it is a product of the mind of men. And while it is true, we live in the universe, I do not think it prudent to give the universe credit for all the machinations of the minds of men.

And the measures of time (artificially applied by men) are not the reality of time. I may speak of a pica-second, but that has no relation to the reality of some segment of time duration other than the saying of it.

And there is no direct tie between naming a segment of time, and changes in a sequence of events. Only if the sequence of events is being timed, does it have any significance whatsoever. Many events and their subsequent changes happen within the framework of time, but are not identified with any particular segment of time because they happened without the purview of man. That does not change the fact of change, it simply shows that change takes place whether we name a time segment or do not name a time segment in which the even changes. Naming a time segment has no effect on the time itself.

God just ‘Is’, He doesn’t change, He is neither subject to, nor affected by, the passage of time; it is meaningless in terms of describing His existence, which is why He didn’t say to Moses, “I’m very old” “or “I’m eternal”, but rather, “I am” – that statement always describes His state of existence. It is a tensless staement of being.

I guess Daniel didn't know that, when by inspiration he penned " I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the ANCIENT OF DAYS did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire." [Dan 7:9]
If "ancient of days" is not a significant description of one who is old, I do not know what is.

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As I have previously pointed out, "time" is xronos in Greek, not aionos, which is "age." And the verse is adressed TO God, THROUGH our saviour Jeuss Christ, so it is GOD to whom glory, majesty, dominion, and authority before all age are attributed, NOT JESUS CHRIST.

Are you suggesting God and Jesus are different in respect to there eternal existence?

I am suggesting that if you reference the eternal existence of Jesus, you use references that apply to Jesus. If you reference the eternal existence of the Father, you use references that apply to the father. To quote a passage showing the Father is eternal, to prove the son is eternal, causes way to much confusion among the unstable, and in my humble opinion, directly caused denominationalism to creep in.

Suppose I have a bible class on God's use of his prophets. Suppose then I reference Exod 7:1, which clearly is a reference to god and his prophet. Do you see a problem here? Exodus 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Exo 7:1, while it may be true it is a reference to god and his prophet, it is not a reference to Jehovah God and his prophet. To simply use the reference with out any explanation does a disservice to the scriptures.

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And God certainly functioned prior to anything remotely perceived as "an age" so far as men are concerned.

So here you agree that the language used (age) is a product of human perspective on the matter of time. Could this be because God’s use of temporal language (Eternal, old, and age) is a matter of communicating to temporal beings rather than being a commentary on the nature of God’s existence?

Well my friend, Wisdom tells us some things took place "or ever the earth was," which is a reference to a time prior to the Gen 1 account of creation. It certainly tells us something about a functioning deity prior to the creation, which so far seems to be the limit of everyone's understanding of when God began anything at all. I have shown that time functioned before Gen 1, and am called down and asked to explain what is clearly pronounced in scripture. Why? If scripture says it like I have propounded it, accept it. If scripture tells it otherwise, show me wherein I have mispronounced its message and I will learn something.

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That time is a property of this universe is not "obvious" to me. Quite the contrary, this universe is a property of Time and God's eternal purpose. God created the universe in time, not time in the universe.

Well, this brings us back to the original point, doesn’t it – when, from God’s perspective, did God create the universe?

At some point in time, yes.

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Clarify please! Are you saying "this universe where God must reside?" Or are you saying "exist outside of this universe where God must reside?"

Now it seems God is limited by his creation! If you say "God must reside in this universe," You say there is a place God cannot go. If you say God must reside outside this universe, you deny him place within the universe.
Both are incorrect. It still requires clarification so I know with which perception I must deal.

What do you understand to be the focus of "That God may be all in all?" Is there some boundary to the universe beyond which God cannot "be?" Reference please!

I hope you agree God exists apart from the universe (which did not always exist), and that His primary residence is not within the universe, though He may indeed involve Himself with it. If the universe were to no longer exist, God would not cease to exist, nor would any part of Him be lessened. So in that respect, He does not ‘reside’ (primarily inhabit) the universe and is not subject to it.

I think you would have a serious problem defining God's "primary residence," if you think it is outside the universe. I think it is in the hearts of men IN THIS UNIVERSE. And in his church IN THIS UNIVERSE. While it may be true that he also resides elsewhere, I find no mention of it in scriptures.

And "if the universe were to no longer exist" should really read, "WHEN the univers is burned up with a fervent heat," God will live on and so will his saints.

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Time is that notion of "when" during which God is, and contemplates, and acts, and functions as God. He cannot do anything or "Be" anything outside of "when," which is a reference to time.

Once more, time has always been, and will always be. It is not a construct. It is necessary for function, however infinitessimal, however irregarded; if there is "be" there must also be "When" to be.

Is this really so difficult to comprehend?

Well, you make time out to be a god here; time is subject to God, not vice versa; presumably you believe God is not limited by time?

How silly! Where have I made time a god? Are you saying that to always be one has to be God? I do not think so, and I have not made that application. I have not said to worship time. I have not said time directs our movements. I have not personalized or personified time whatsoever. I have simply applied to time, its own function beyond that area of understanding prevalent in the world of men. They think it began with the creation account in Gen 1:1. I have shown that it does not.

Do you believe God controls time? If so, how if it is not His creation?

I can only offer references to the fact that God controlled those implements of time which he created; i.e., commanded the sun to stand still. He indeed created the sun. To expand it beyond what the scriptures tell us, to say he commanded time to stand still goes beyond what scriptures say.

Josh 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

Also, if there is always a ‘when’, then please tell us when God began.

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It is evident you are unable to comprehend what I am saying. I said God always was. Time always was. How is it that you ask "when did they begin?" What part of "always was" did I post too fast for you to grasp? What part of "always were" do you not perceive?

What part of time do you consider to not be designated as "when?"

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I like to think of God as considering his "aloneness" as lacking purpose, and almost instantaneously, saying "Let there be light." Earth and all that is soon followed in the process as revealed in the Genesis account.

That would make the earth just an infinitessimal bit younger than God himself. It matters not how old the earth is, nor yet how old God is, so long as he considers us still his children, and still sends his rain and blessings and gives us hope.

So, for God to be ‘young’ (or almost as young as the earth) He would have to have begun at a certain point and then existed for a certain amount of time relative to the amount of time the earth existed.