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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 5/12/2008 8:20:50 PM
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drmark
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quote:
So after indulging in 149 posts of Semantical exercise, I appreciate your honesty, t-b. Have a nice day.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 5/12/2008 8:26:37 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
What you are preaching is philosophy, not theology. There is no doctrine in scripture that says time limits God. And that is the philosophy you are promoting. You make it sound like God is not limited. theo_book, how do you wish to define eternal? There are at least a dozen references to the eternal nature of God in His Word. Everyone here but you understands that eternal means unlimited. Now, for the last time, present your personal definition of eternal or be prepared to post to yourself. We really do not have time for semantic nonsense!
Do really think "eternal" means "unlimited" with no reference to TIME? It means "unlimited time." TIME is an integral part of eternity without which "eternity" has no meaning. God is eternal, references God is as old as time itself, which has been my claim all along.
It is YOU and philosophers who claim Time is not eternal, which makes no sense whatsoever, by the definition of the terminology itself.
Try to define "eternal" without using "time" in your definition, and see who is playing the semantic game.
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 5/12/2008 9:53:38 PM
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evry1needsgod
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Thanks for the discussion theo_book. It was very educational. I'll be praying for you!
In Christ,
ZG
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 5/13/2008 8:21:02 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Thanks for the discussion theo_book. It was very educational. I'll be praying for you!
In Christ,
ZG
It has always been easier to ignore truth, than to respond graciously.
Try to define "eternal" or "eternity" without a reference to time. "Eternal" MEANS unlimited time.
I will pray for you too. All of you!
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 5/13/2008 8:26:32 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
So after indulging in 149 posts of Semantical exercise, I appreciate your honesty, t-b. Have a nice day.
What I actually said was "So after indulging in 149 posts of Semantical exercise, you determine you don't have time for semantic nonsense? Or are you casting off on my posts as different from your posts?"
So how about a little "honesty" on YOUR part?
God is "eternal" MEANS He is as old as time.
"Eternal" MEANS "time without end" Or "Endless time." Can YOU define eternity without referencing TIME?
Where's that "honesty" you appreciate? Or am I to understand you only appreciate it in others?
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 5/18/2008 8:08:10 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I appreciate your honesty, t-b.
Is that a measure of what "Honesty" means from a "super member" on this board?
How sad.
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 5/20/2008 3:13:01 PM
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swan42
Posts: 314
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quote:
I think God is first and foremost, active. In fact, Genesis begins by telling us God is six times as active as he is restful.
Going only on the Bible as documentation, then God has become very tired and has been resting ever since. I'm not saying that's true, but I am saying that it is useless to draw any theological conclusions about the activity of a deity on the most important week in human history.
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 5/20/2008 6:45:19 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: swan42
Going only on the Bible as documentation, then God has become very tired and has been resting ever since. I'm not saying that's true, but I am saying that it is useless to draw any theological conclusions about the activity of a deity on the most important week in human history.
Genesis says he rested ON "the seventh day," Not "from day seven" onward. And I think it very well shows God to be an active deity.
My only motive is to show why I do not think we will spend eternity standing around (or kneeling) and singing praises for eternity. I think we will be busy because we are made in God's image, and since God was busy six to one, his image will be also.
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 5/20/2008 8:02:50 PM
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swan42
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quote:
Genesis says he rested ON "the seventh day," Not "from day seven" onward. And I think it very well shows God to be an active deity.
The 7th day of rest resonates with the Shabbat. It also resonates throughout the entire Bible. Resting on the 7th day was a very common activity in the time of Moses. It sets the tone for Shabbat. It doesn't say God is a busy bee; that's your interpretation.
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 5/20/2008 8:31:13 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: swan42
quote:
Genesis says he rested ON "the seventh day," Not "from day seven" onward. And I think it very well shows God to be an active deity.
The 7th day of rest resonates with the Shabbat. It also resonates throughout the entire Bible. Resting on the 7th day was a very common activity in the time of Moses. It sets the tone for Shabbat. It doesn't say God is a busy bee; that's your interpretation.
Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Sorry - "busy bee" is YOUR interpretation. God saying he created six days and rested the seventh is GOD'S interpretation.
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 6/13/2008 8:45:08 AM
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theo_book
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Is there anyone on the board who can define "eterna;" or "eternity," from any form of the Greek "aiwn," WITHOUT referencing "time?"
"Eternal" and "eternity" both are a reference to limitless time. Any dispute? Any honesty left on the board?
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 6/13/2008 10:24:51 AM
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hellohellohi
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I haven't read all these posts yet, so I'm not exaclty sure what the dispute is.
But, yeah, a synonym for eternity would be infinite time. Why not? One could still speak of "the end of time," meaning when infinity has been reached, which is what I am inclined to believe in, in a way. One day we will meet God and infinity perhaps -- one DAY?? How else can one speak?
Really the question of time for a Christian should be "how much do we have left?" The answer to that should be -- you better be ready NOW! 
So, to say "one day" like I did, is dangerous. Rather, one should view time (as it is lived) as a moment. The next moment may be "eternity." In eternity (when we have reached infinity??) we will be in a state that is utterly unknowable to finitude. That's what infinity is, the unreachable hypothetical. The moment that we live in was indeed begun with the utterance of a Word and it will end with that Word as well, eh? What happened before and what will happen after is not exactly a sensible question (it is not open to the senses.)
So, in a sense, God is unimaginably old. And if our lives comprise but a moment, and in this moment we find that all things have been made new in the Lord, then, truly, we inhabit a just as infinitely young world!
Measuring the time from the onset of the knowable Universe to now is interesting, I suppose.
But if it is procrastination for us to say "one day," as if we are putting God at too great a distance -- if He says "one day" and "six days," and He is a loving God, then He is putting creation at a remove from us greater than what ought to be considered NOW. It is true that on the seventh day, He rested, but isn't it also true that we ought not be caught asleep!?
I don't say it is wrong to observe the Sabbath. I think it is amazing advice or a righteous law, as it were. I just think the notion of MEASURING time (yes, I think someone said infinity is homogeneous or unchangeable) started when we got concerned with PROCRASTINATION. God is perfectly indifferent to time, no doubt.
Just trying to be clever.
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 6/13/2008 10:38:57 AM
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drmark
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quote:
quote:
"Eternal" and "eternity" both are a reference to limitless time. Any dispute? Any honesty left on the board?
I appreciate the underhanded comment about those disagreeing being liars! Well spoken, WesP! It's one thing to be enthusiastic of your position - it's quite another to be degrading of those who view things a little differently.
You want an "honest answer", theo_book. Well, here it is. Eternal and eternity may refer to limitless time, but time is both meaningless and incomprehensible if it is not amenable to measurement by limits. So, I personally do NOT believe eternity is a "reference to limitless time", because there's no such intelligible concept as that!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 6/13/2008 2:35:42 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
"Eternal" and "eternity" both are a reference to limitless time. Any dispute? Any honesty left on the board?
quote:
I appreciate the underhanded comment about those disagreeing being liars!
Actually it is a reference to Dr. Mark's comment about my honesty when he quoted just a wee part of my comment, as though it was the entire context. I have no argument with you over that. Just remember where it got started is all I ask.
quote:
I appreciate the underhanded comment about those disagreeing being liars!
quote:
Well spoken, WesP! It's one thing to be enthusiastic of your position - it's quite another to be degrading of those who view things a little differently.
Go back over the thread and see who it was who began degrading whom.
quote:
You want an "honest answer", theo_book. Well, here it is. Eternal and eternity may refer to limitless time, but time is both meaningless and incomprehensible if it is not amenable to measurement by limits. So, I personally do NOT believe eternity is a "reference to limitless time", because there's no such intelligible concept as that!
God gave men luminaries in the heaven to use for measuring time with measurements man can understand. It took men to invent concepts like "eternal" and "eternity" to sound awestruck over God's unlimitlessness as to time. The actual Greek words translated eternal and eternity reference the fact that the periods of time are so vast they have not been counted or measured. It does not mean a non-reference to time, which is what Dr. Mark has been claiming. And not just him, but most of the Christians I correspond with agree with him, the God created time, and that God exists outside of time.
It is a concept that makes no sense because God cannot be referenced outside of time. It requires time to "be." "BE" is a verb of existence. Existence requires time. God requires time in which to exist. And no, it is not placing a limiting parameter on God to say he has requirements. He is not limited, and neither is time, so the concept of limitlessness limiting the unlimited is facetious at best.
Thank you for your responses, and if it bothers you too much, I will say no more about it at all. I do however appreciate your agreeing that
"eternity" and "eternal" are references to time.
Go with God
< Message edited by theo_book -- 6/13/2008 2:45:21 PM >
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 6/13/2008 3:12:26 PM
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hellohellohi
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Certainly God can exist out of time. He is partially an unknowable, an infinite, so He can inhabit all sorts of unknowable realms like that termed out of time, beyond the Universe, and so on. Doesn't seem to be inconsistent.
He can also exist in time -- Christianly speaking, in the moment right now. He is here. He knows our names. The only question for a Christian is whether that name will be uttered in ETERNITY, that is, beyond this moment (time). Or will it be "expunged?"
Is there actually a dispute? I don't really get it.
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 6/13/2008 5:48:04 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
Certainly God can exist out of time. He is partially an unknowable, an infinite, so He can inhabit all sorts of unknowable realms like that termed out of time, beyond the Universe, and so on. Doesn't seem to be inconsistent.
The inconsistent aspect is found in attempts to assign "timelessness" to God when scripture is silent on the concept. As "God is past finding out" how is it that men found out that God exists outside of time? God certainly does not reveal it about himself. If he did, someone would quote the referent passage.
We do know that God binds himself to concepts requiring an allegiance to time elements; i.e., sabbaths; days of atonement, and etc.
If God demands that men aknowledge times and seasons, he also commits to his own covenant and aknowledges its "times and seasons."
Mostly the debate issue, in my humble opinion, is about the meaning, not of a word, but of a translation of a word. That, it seams to me is precarious at best.
quote:
He can also exist in time -- Christianly speaking, in the moment right now. He is here. He knows our names. The only question for a Christian is whether that name will be uttered in ETERNITY, that is, beyond this moment (time). Or will it be "expunged?"
Is there actually a dispute? I don't really get it.
In what capacity can he exist outside of time? "BE" is a verb of existence requiring time in which to put it into action. One cannot act without time in which to act. One cannot "be" without time in which to be. One cannot exist without time in which to exist. If anyone disputes this, you will know whence the dispute.
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 6/13/2008 5:59:06 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 474
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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quote:
We do know that God binds himself to concepts requiring an allegiance to time elements; i.e., sabbaths; days of atonement, and etc.
If God demands that men aknowledge times and seasons, he also commits to his own covenant and aknowledges its "times and seasons."
Yeah! I like that.
Of course, we aren't given to know what the hour of reckoning will be, eh? I like the idea that God follows seasons just like us -- but, just like us, he follows His seasons. Hmm, perhaps our seasons are the same? You know, it makes sense that He would choose a time that would be auspicious in some way. For instance, Autumn has a particular feel -- perhaps He knows that we will respond in a way that ensures the best "harvest" if He comes in Autumn!!
Cool,
see ya
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 6/13/2008 7:40:45 PM
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drmark
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quote:
In what capacity can he exist outside of time? We've been over this before! In order for God to have created time (you do understand that time had a beginning - Genesis 1:3), then He must be transcendent to time as the uncreated Creator of real time. We can and do NOT comprehend God's existence "outside of time" since we are finite created beings limited by real time (and space and matter, as well).
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 6/13/2008 8:45:26 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
In what capacity can he exist outside of time? We've been over this before! In order for God to have created time (you do understand that time had a beginning - Genesis 1:3), then He must be transcendent to time as the uncreated Creator of real time.
I understand no such thing. Gen 1:3 does not say God created time. It says "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." Light is not time. Or do you understand that when ("when" = a reference to time) the Spirit of God moved (requires time for motion) upon the face of the deep, it took no time?
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."
If light is time, what was it before it was separated from darkness?
If light is time, how could the spirit of God move? Moving is motion and requires time.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
But wait! We are told of other "activity" (REQUIRING TIME) PRIOR to the creative effort described in Gen 1:1-3 -
Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed (requires time) me in the beginning of his way, before (references time (before, during, after all reference time))his works of old (references time).
23 I was set up from everlasting (references time), from the beginning (references time), or ever the earth was.
24 When (references time) there were no depths, I was ("tense" reference to time) brought forth; when ("tense" references time) there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before (references time) the mountains were settled, before (references time) the hills was I ("tense" reference to time) brought forth:
26 While (reference to time) as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When (reference to time) he prepared the heavens, I was ("tense" reference to time) there: when he set (requires time for action) a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When (reference to time) he established (action requires time) the clouds above: when he strengthened (action requires time) the fountains of the deep:
29 When (reference to time) he gave (action requires time) to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when (reference to time) he appointed (action requiring time) the foundations of the earth:
30 Then (a reference to time) I was (tense = reference to time) by him, as one brought up with him: and I was (tense = reference to time) daily his delight, rejoicing (action requiring time) always before him;
31 Rejoicing (action requiring time) in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were (reference to time) with the sons of men.
quote:
We can and do NOT comprehend God's existence "outside of time" since we are finite created beings limited by real time (and space and matter, as well).
Then why do you insist God exists "outside of time?" And we are not "finite beings" limited by real time. If that were true, we could not "imagine" infiniteness; we could not have science fiction dealing with time travel, and fiction stories dealing with wars in a space-time continuum. Everything having to do with fiction of ANY kind would not be possible if we were finite beings.
If your reference to our being "finite beings" is a reference to the fact we are limited, I would agree, but you would then have to tell us how much time we have. And NO ONE knows how much time we have. Our time is "uncounted" and "undocumented" till we die. We then become finite; but at the same time we become infinite, because we are no longer limited to the parameter of flesh.
"Finite" means limited to a predetermined count or number. And until you can predetermine the length of one life, we will remain in-finite.
Being "Finite" is to have measurable limits. And NO ONE can tell the measured limits of a man's life so long as he is alive.
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 6/13/2008 11:13:18 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3185
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
I understand no such thing. Gen 1:3 does not say God created time. It says "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." Light is not time. Or do you understand that when ("when" = a reference to time) the Spirit of God moved (requires time for motion) upon the face of the deep, it took no time? Then you have a very faulty understanding of light, theo_book! Light is energy moving in space through time. E=mc2 There is no existence of light without time to characterize its velocity. There is no existence of light without space to characterize its location. There is no existence of light without matter to characterize its energy. When God said "Let there be light", He created space (the heavens), matter (the earth), and time (in the beginning)! Time did not exist when God "moved upon the face of the deep". This is a *gasp* metaphor, which YECs have never denied exist in the Genesis historical account.
quote:
If light is time, what was it before it was separated from darkness?
If light is time, how could the spirit of God move? Moving is motion and requires time. Your not paying attention, theo! There was NO light before God created it and separated it from darkness. There was no "before" either! Nothing in Genesis 1:2 requires that any physical action occured during finite time.
The Hebrew word translated "moved" or "hovered" is used only two other times in the OT. Once in Deuteronomy to describe the fluttering of a mother eagle and the other in Jeremiah to refer to someone trembling in their bones. None of these metaphorical uses appears to require God to be limited by time!
quote:
Then why do you insist God exists "outside of time?" Why do you insist on misrepresenting and misunderstanding my position? God exists inside and outside of the time only He could create. God is TRANSCENDENT to His created time.
quote:
"Finite" means limited to a predetermined count or number. And until you can predetermine the length of one life, we will remain in-finite.
Being "Finite" is to have measurable limits. And NO ONE can tell the measured limits of a man's life so long as he is alive. You are confusing the concepts of infinite and eternal. They are closely related but not identical, especially with regards to the human soul. God knows the "measured limits of every man's life" so by your definition we are all "finite". Actually, Ecclesiastes 3:11 tells us we are eternal yet we can never truly grasp this magnificent concept. Frankly, I do not want to, since it would overwhelm my puny mind!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 6/14/2008 8:58:40 AM
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theo_book
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TO THEO'S REMARK: I understand no such thing. Gen 1:3 does not say God created time. It says "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." Light is not time. Or do you understand that when ("when" = a reference to time) the Spirit of God moved (requires time for motion) upon the face of the deep, it took no time?
DRMARK RESPONDED: Then you have a very faulty understanding of light, theo_book! Light is energy moving in space through time. E=mc2 There is no existence of light without time to characterize its velocity. There is no existence of light without space to characterize its location. There is no existence of light without matter to characterize its energy. When God said "Let there be light", He created space (the heavens), matter (the earth), and time (in the beginning)! Time did not exist when God "moved upon the face of the deep". This is a *gasp* metaphor, which YECs have never denied exist in the Genesis historical account.
THEO'S RESPONSE (NEW): I think you probably know that Light is not light energy. (Or maybe you don't) Anyway, light is not light energy, and energy is not light energy. Both terms require more than just to say "energy" or "light." There are many more forms of energy than light energy. And there are more characteristics of light than light "energy."
Consider for a moment, my friend (I hope you are my friend) that it is a fallacy to insist that "because there is no existence of light without time to characterize its velocity," the antithesis is true; i.e., It is not true that with the absence of light, time ceases. As well, it is not true that without light, space ceases; and without light, matter ceases.
In fact, I would predict that if you turned out the light, time would not slow down, matter would not weigh lighter, and space would not shrink.
It is not my "faulty understanding of light" that creates the problem my friend, it is your misapplication of the physics of light. You say for example, "There is no existence of light without time to characterize its velocity." Yet when I make the same application to the existence of God, you scoff.
You say "There is no existence of light without space to characterize its location." When I make the same application (God occupies space), you disagree. You say "There is no existence of light without matter to characterize its energy." Matter is DEPENDENT upon God for its existence in time. And God created matter before he created light.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: (As yet there is no "E=mc2" because there is no "c2" separated from darkness.)(God has not yet separated light from darkness). Yet matter exists, and energy exists in the form of God's creative effort, requiring time.
And yes, time is necessary for the Spirit of God to move upon the face of the deep. While you may call it "metaphor," (a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance," I strongly disagree. Which part do you consider metaphoric? The spirit? The motion? The deep having a face? (facet?)
I see no reason to be correcting God's use of language to describe what only He knows took place in the creation. A proper metaphor would be, for example "A mighty fortress is our God." But "the Spirit of God moving upon the face of the deep" is not a metaphor. There is no substance upon which to hang the term.
FINALLY, "and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."
TO THEO'S REMARK: If light is time, what was it before it was separated from darkness? If light is time, how could the spirit of God move? Moving is motion and requires time.
DRMARK RESPONDED: Your not paying attention, theo!
THEO'S RESPONSE (NEW): Oh, Theo's paying close attention. Theo just does not agree with your conclusions.
DRMARK CONTINUED: There was NO light before God created it and separated it from darkness.
THEO'S RESPONSE (NEW): Agreed partially! (surprise) It was light prior to being separated.
Gen 1:3 "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good:" How could God see the light that it was good, prior to separation from darkness, if it was not light?
"and God divided the light from the darkness."
DRMARK CONTINUED: There was no "before" either! Nothing in Genesis 1:2 requires that any physical action occured during finite time.
THEO'S RESPONSE (NEW): Assumes "physical" be a factor beyond simple "process." ANY process requires time, whether it be "physical, mental, emotional, metaphysical, or whatever. ANY "PROCESS" necessarily implies "the process of time."
Look, my friend, at the processes described by Wisdom in the eighth Proverb, verses 22 through 31 and tell me how it occurred without a process of time. Explain if you can, how it is God created the heaven and the earth, and light, before separation from darkness, if time was not a factor.
It remains a fact, God created heaven and earth BEFORE he created light. Those are PHYSICAL creations. And light was as yet absent. No, my friend, I do not agree with your assessment. And it is not heretical or erroneous, or any other kind of mischief you may assign to me. (I weep)
DRMARK CONTINUED: The Hebrew word translated "moved" or "hovered" is used only two other times in the OT. Once in Deuteronomy to describe the fluttering of a mother eagle and the other in Jeremiah to refer to someone trembling in their bones. None of these metaphorical uses appears to require God to be limited by time!
THEO'S RESPONSE (NEW): That is why the references are in Jeremiah and ar eapplied to a bird and a trembling man; they do not apply to God. The reference in Genesis does. And mother Eagles do flutter, and people do very much tremble in their bones, from fear, from fatigue, from age. And sometimes from an aknowldgement they have hindered the gospel of God.
TO THEO'S REMARK: Then why do you insist God exists "outside of time?"
DRMARK RESPONDED: Why do you insist on misrepresenting and misunderstanding my position? God exists inside and outside of the time only He could create.
THEO'S RESPONSE (NEW): I see no mis-statement of your position. And I see no misunderstanding of your position. You clearly state, and reiterate, that God exists outside of time; "God exists inside and outside of the time" comes directly from your statement in very close proximity (just above) my own statement. How have I mistateted your position? And God did not create time. In fact, if he did, it would REQUIRE TIME FOR HIM TO DO THE ACTIVITY.
DEMARK CONTINUED: God is TRANSCENDENT to His created time.
THEO'S RESPONSE (NEW): Nowhere in scripture is this concept ever an issue.
TO THEO'S REMARK: "Finite" means limited to a predetermined count or number. And until you can predetermine the length of one life, we will remain in-finite. Being "Finite" is to have measurable limits. And NO ONE can tell the measured limits of a man's life so long as he is alive.
DRMARK RESPONDED: You are confusing the concepts of infinite and eternal. They are closely related but not identical, especially with regards to the human soul. God knows the "measured limits of every man's life" so by your definition we are all "finite". Actually, Ecclesiastes 3:11 tells us we are eternal yet we can never truly grasp this magnificent concept. Frankly, I do not want to, since it would overwhelm my puny mind!
THEO'S RESPONSE (NEW): Then allow us who do "grasp" "comprehend" and "ponder" the freedom to enjoy our humility. Before God I declare, I have no problem comprehending the enormous, nor the tiniest, of God's creative effort. Nor do I have any problem whatsoever, understanding that God and Time exist within the same frame of reference as regards "when."
"In the beginning" is not a reference to the beginning of time, but is a reference to the beginning of creation. And I think THAT is where much dogmatism become a factor in doctrine.
I do very much appreciate your effort and time in coming back to the thread to assert your position. And I am paying attention. I just see things from a different perspective, but the glory still belongs to the creator.
< Message edited by theo_book -- 6/14/2008 10:05:39 AM >
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RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 6/14/2008 11:01:46 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3185
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
I think you probably know that Light is not light energy. (Or maybe you don't) Anyway, light is not light energy, and energy is not light energy. Both terms require more than just to say "energy" or "light." There are many more forms of energy than light energy. And there are more characteristics of light than light "energy." Nonsense! Obviously light is light energy - why would anyone think it's sound energy? Absolutely, there are more "characteristics" of light than enegy. The one I'm specifically arguing for is time - light is energy travelling in space through time.
quote:
Consider for a moment, my friend (I hope you are my friend) that it is a fallacy to insist that "because there is no existence of light without time to characterize its velocity," the antithesis is true; i.e., It is not true that with the absence of light, time ceases. As well, it is not true that without light, space ceases; and without light, matter ceases. More nonsense, my friend! The alleged antithesis should be correctly stated that "without light, time ceases". This is obviously not true because it is light's existence which is contingent on time, not time's existence contingent on light. The existence of time, space, and matter are contingent on their Creator's Grace, not anything He has created!
If God wills to make time cease (that is, uncreate time), then light would no longer be real light as it would have only energy and space with which to exist. Indeed, while space and matter (energy) may remain even in time's complete absence, they would be no longer comprehensible, experiential, or applicable in reality. The very existence of the Tri-Une Universe demands that all three "dimensions" exist.
quote:
It is not my "faulty understanding of light" that creates the problem my friend, it is your misapplication of the physics of light. You say for example, "There is no existence of light without time to characterize its velocity." Yet when I make the same application to the existence of God, you scoff. Just to clarify then - are you claiming that there is no existence of God without time to characterize His divine Essence? If so, I scoff at the notion that God can only exist because His creation exists. I'm not sure you realize, theo_book, that this statement borders on heresy.
quote:
You say "There is no existence of light without space to characterize its location." When I make the same application (God occupies space), you disagree. You say "There is no existence of light without matter to characterize its energy." Matter is DEPENDENT upon God for its existence in time. And God created matter before he created light. Once more, you have misunderstood or misrepresented my position. God is transcendent to, that is both inside and outside of, His created space. Perhaps the word "independent" helps to convey the meaning of "transcendent" in this context. God does NOT depend on time in order for Him to exist or have meaning in reality. On the other hand, light depends on space in which its energy must travel through time in order to be real.
You say "God created matter before he created light". That claim is nowhere to be found in Scripture. You may try to assume it from Genesis 1:2, but that only shows our puny human understanding of "before". There was no "before" until God created light in verse 3! I do not know (nor will any of us ever understand) just exactly what Moses is calling "formless, empty, void earth" and "hovering darkness over the watery deep". I personally envision some kind of divine proto-substance attributable to the Second Person of the Godhead, since we know that God created everything through Him (John 1:3) and by Him (Col 1:16). But we do not need to get hung up on Genesis 1:2 when we have God's first creative act in real time so clearly stated in Genesis 1:3.
quote:
I see no reason to be correcting God's use of language to describe what only He knows took place in the creation. A proper metaphor would be, for example "A mighty fortress is our God." But "the Spirit of God moving upon the face of the deep" is not a metaphor. There is no substance upon which to hang the term. Exactly right, my friend! There is no substance which we can understand from verse 2 because God had not yet created physical reality with the initiation of light. Moses writes metaphorically in verse 2 because he has no other frame of reference from which to describe things existing outside of yet-to-be created reality! I'm just thankful God condescended to even allow Moses to share such intimate details of creation with us. Aren't you?
quote:
Look, my friend, at the processes described by Wisdom in the eighth Proverb, verses 22 through 31 and tell me how it occurred without a process of time. Explain if you can, how it is God created the heaven and the earth, and light, before separation from darkness, if time was not a factor. Hold on, theo_book! Proverbs 8:22-31 is a poetic passage (some commentaries say hymn) which describes the role of Wisdom in God's creative activity. Indeed, this likely relates to the Second Person's involvement in creation as I discussed above. There is no indication in this passage that God created the heavens and the earth contingent on time!
quote:
And God did not create time. In fact, if he did, it would REQUIRE TIME FOR HIM TO DO THE ACTIVITY. Are you limiting the divine capabilities of the eternal, infinite, omnipotent Creator of the universe? God requires NOTHING to create. How can something God created be required for Him to create it? Hello?
quote:
Then allow us who do "grasp" "comprehend" and "ponder" the freedom to enjoy our humility. Before God I declare, I have no problem comprehending the enormous, nor the tiniest, of God's creative effort. Nor do I have any problem whatsoever, understanding the God and Time exist within the same frame of reference as regards "when." Nice try, but most of us know you better. And such an arrogant declaration (if you truly believe it, which I doubt) is the antithesis of humility!
quote:
"In the beginning" is not a reference to the beginning of time, but is a reference to the beginning of creation. And I think THAT is where much dogmatism become a factor in doctrine. You're losing touch on this one, theo_book! The only meaningful definition of "beginning" must refer to time. That is not "dogmatic doctrine". That is common sense linguistic usage. If you cannot accept such a simple fact, we have no further rational basis upon which to dialog.
quote:
I do very much appreciate your effort and time in coming back to the thread to assert your position. And I am paying attention. I just see things from a different perspective, but the glory still belongs to the creator. And the Creator will share His glory with those who believe in Him - 1 Peter 5:1.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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