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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/26/2008 8:23:24 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Some in this discussion believe that we do not need forgiveness after we are saved because we are already forgiven.
This statement simply does not make any sense dd. It is convoluted.
What 'some' are saying in this discussion is that we most definitely need forgiveness after we are saved, and thank God we have it.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/26/2008 8:51:40 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
For me this problem comes in where I hear we are forgiven for everything.
So not all sins are forgiven by Christ's shed blood on the cross?
quote:
This message is being preached more and more because it certainly can draw a crowd.
Really? Where? I would like to know, because I would like to go there. Believe me, those of us who understand the finished work of Christ, are hungry for fellowship with like-minded believers.
quote:
However, it leaves out, humility, that we are still sinners, that we will continue to sin (although we certainly have a choice in doing that!), and the reflections of a new creature in Christ. As you have seen in these threads as well in the real world, there are people who have been taught that they can do anything they want and live anyway they want and still be saved. How sad is that.
See, this is you going beyond what has been written, taking it to the place where in your mind everyone will go if they actually accept and believe that their sins are forgiven. But, the sad fact is they are doing just fine sinning, believing their sins are NOT forgiven.
What we have been saying, and what you cannot see, is that the Christian life is not about not sinning, God is not dealing with us based on our sins. The Christian life IS Christ.
What we are saying is that when you are depending, trusting, abiding, focusing, keeping your eyes on Jesus...then and only then are you living the Christian life. And then and only then are you not sinning.
"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you." Ephesians 4:32
"Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you." Colossians 3:13
We, as Christians, forgive because we are forgiven, we do not forgive to get forgiven.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/26/2008 10:10:46 AM
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rcjames
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Just how does this automatic forgiveness for all that your are trying to sell fit with this Scripture;
(Heb 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(Heb 10:27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/26/2008 11:13:22 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Just how does this automatic forgiveness for all that your are trying to sell fit with this Scripture;
(Heb 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(Heb 10:27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Thanks
RC
Hebrews 10:26,27 is directed at those who are rejecting the truth of Hebrews 10:17,18...
"Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more. And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin."
It means that if you keep sinning, by willfully refusing to accept that Christ's sacrifice on the cross has provided forgiveness; then there is nothing that remains for you except the rightful result of your sins.
The reason this is so, is because Jesus Christ is not coming back to die on a cross all over again. It is finished. He sacrificed, "once, and for all".
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/26/2008 11:29:45 AM
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deliveredarling
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URF, here is a quote from Rileykins:
Hi URForgiven
And I wonder too why it's only the forgiveness that we have in Christ that goes away when we, "fall out of fellowship" with God? If we "lose our fellowship with God" as the keep-short-accounts-crowd say we do when we sin, then why wouldn't all of the other wonderful spiritual blessings that we've been freely given in Christ also go away until we confess, repent? Why wouldn't we also have to keep asking God to redeem us? Keep asking God to deliver us from the power of darkness? Keep asking God to reinstate us as partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light? Keep asking God to translate us into the kingdom of his dear Son when we sin?
What do you make of these statements?Is she not saying boldly that we don't have to ask for forgiveness? Had you have stated what you are now saying , this confusion would have been cleared up pages ago!
As I told you before and as I listed the true falses, you agreed that that statement was true.We as Christians do not have the luxury to pick and choose which part of the Bible we want abide by, It all goes together for the betterment of our relationship with Christ. The choice given to us is simple: Yes I will follow you or not I will not. He does not bargain!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/26/2008 12:48:23 PM
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rcjames
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URF, you calim that one has to do nothing to get forgiveness but Peter said;
(Act 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Peter said we must repent and be Baptized; was he wrong?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/26/2008 12:51:36 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
URF, you calim that one has to do nothing to get forgiveness but Peter said;
(Act 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Peter said we must repent and be Baptized; was he wrong?
Thanks
RC
Everyone who is saved has repented and been baptized.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/26/2008 12:51:45 PM
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deliveredarling
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Because we are human and imperfect. We are in the process of sanctification, not perfect yet.
2 Tim 2:21
"Therefore, if a man cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified useful to the Master, prepared for every good work."
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/26/2008 2:47:08 PM
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TheoJunkie
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DD,
This is a little late (the thread I know has moved on)... I just wanted to note the following. You said:
quote:
However, since you brought it up, as you have fully well seen, 1John 1:9 does support that we must confess, the promise comes that He is just to forgive us.
You seem to be making the point that the reason God is Just when he forgives us, is because we have asked for that forgiveness (or put another way, that it is our asking for forgiveness that makes God just when he forgives us).
However, the reason God is Just when he forgives us has to do with Christ satisfying justice on our behalf (in our stead). Our asking for it does not make it just... rather, Christ satisfying justice makes God able to remain just even as he lets us off scott free.
Note Romans 3:
21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/26/2008 3:55:47 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
URF, you calim that one has to do nothing to get forgiveness but Peter said;
(Act 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Peter said we must repent and be Baptized; was he wrong?
Thanks
RC
Everyone who is saved has repented and been baptized.
Well then, they had to do something to get forgiveness.
And if they sin again, it means they did not repent; so they had better try again.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/26/2008 4:00:19 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
So not all sins are forgiven by Christ's shed blood on the cross?
Well for sure not blashpemy of the Holy Spirit, nor wilfull sins after recieving the knowledge of the truth.
And I would also say those not confessed and repented of.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/26/2008 6:46:30 PM
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deliveredarling
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Theo, that's not what I meant. I meant that if we ask for forgiveness, we can rest assured that he has forgiven us. We don't have to wonder anymore. I can't say that for unknown, or forgotten sins.....
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/26/2008 7:25:26 PM
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rcjames
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Maybe we are bumping heads on semantics here.
Yes, the Sacrifice of Chirist was sufficent for the remission of all sin for all time. But if a person does not believe in Christ and repent those forgiven sins do him no benefit whatsoever. The sins of a lost person may be forgiven, but they still have no relationship with God and are condemned.
So when a person is saved (indwelt by the Holy Ghost, etc.) then any sin they may commit after salvation is forgiven by that same sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, but it does no good in restoring a torn relationship with God caused by that sin without repentance and confession.
That is why we are instructed to confess and repent; to repair the relationship that was torn by the Christian's sin.
God can have no relationship with sin, and without repentance and confession a person has sin.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/26/2008 8:53:54 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Maybe we are bumping heads on semantics here.
Yes, the Sacrifice of Chirist was sufficent for the remission of all sin for all time. But if a person does not believe in Christ and repent those forgiven sins do him no benefit whatsoever. The sins of a lost person may be forgiven, but they still have no relationship with God and are condemned.
So when a person is saved (indwelt by the Holy Ghost, etc.) then any sin they may commit after salvation is forgiven by that same sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, but it does no good in restoring a torn relationship with God caused by that sin without repentance and confession.
That is why we are instructed to confess and repent; to repair the relationship that was torn by the Christian's sin.
God can have no relationship with sin, and without repentance and confession a person has sin.
Thanks
RC
The forgiven sins of a lost person do them no good, because they are still dead. The problem with mankind is not that they need their sins forgiven, the problem is they are dead and need life.
Through the death of Christ we are forgiven, through the resurrection we are offered life. The issue is not, "Have you gotten your sins forgiven?" The issue is, "have you received life?"
It is the penalty for our sins that needs corrected, and the penalty for our sins is not being out of fellowship with God, it is not having our relationship with God torn, the penalty is death. Always has been, always will be.
God can have no relationship with sin, which is why He sent His Son to die on a cross for the forgiveness of sins, once and for all. Thereby making it possible to then give us life. Eternal life. Christ's life.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/26/2008 11:43:05 PM
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TheoJunkie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Theo, that's not what I meant. I meant that if we ask for forgiveness, we can rest assured that he has forgiven us. We don't have to wonder anymore. I can't say that for unknown, or forgotten sins.....
DD,
Ok...
Let me suggest that if you hate Sin (big "S") in general, then you are covered for your unknown sins (little "s").
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/27/2008 6:25:51 AM
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deliveredarling
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I know that they will be forgiven. I think it is those that we will be judged on. All those "little" things that we believe are of no consequence, the thoughtless things we have said or done. Sin that we did not recognize as sin. I think at judgment we will all be shocked. I can't keep up with every sin that I have ever committed. What I can do is ask Him to bring them to my rememberence. When He does, I not only learn more about what displeases Him, I can confess and repent of it as well.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/27/2008 7:08:08 AM
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deliveredarling
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Are we combining two different views of repentance and muddling them both when they should be totally separated?
Repentance does not save.
Repentance is the evidence of salvation.
Repentance continues as we are transforming unto holiness.
These are my views and I'm sticking with them. There are many preachers out there preaching that we are "little christ's". That can not be any further from the truth. It is heretical. I can only tell you that one person did that for us. He never told us in His word this is what we are. If we are "lc", then wouldn't we all bear the burden of sin upon the world, wouldn't we all lay down our lives for another? I don't know about ya'll, but i haven't ever made it that far. I haven't reached Christ's position yet, and feel very confident that i won't, why? Because I am not Christ, therefore I have to realize who and what I am. To equate myself with Him is heresy. I simply did not make the sacrifice that He did. Nor can I make those sacrifices for others. Sometimes I can be totally filled and do things that I never would have dreamed or expected myself to do. Guess what, it's not me doing them. it is Him through me. Just because He enables me to do them, doesn't mean He has granted me anything anymore special than He has any other saved person. I have to keep my relationship with Him open and myself humble. If I get full of myself, I close those lines of communication. Same with sin in my life. I can't hear Him because I have blocked those lines with pride. I have done something to inhibit my relationship with Him. This is where choice comes in. To think that we don't have to do anything in our relationship with Him is wrong. Where is the accountability in that thinking? When do I become responsible for my knowing, willing and intentional choices? To ignore any of this, totally waters down the Gospel. I for one am not willing to do that.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/29/2008 10:22:49 AM
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rileykins
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
(Heb 10:27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hello RC
Just so I understand where you are coming from, are you saying that if believers sin and do not confess, repent, ask for forgiveness, stay fessed up, that they will have a fearful judgment, fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries to look forward to?
rileykins
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/29/2008 11:25:50 AM
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rileykins
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I can't keep up with every sin that I have ever committed.
But deliveredarling, if you are going to rely on your ability to keep yourself cleansed from ALL unrighteousness through constant confession, repentance, asking for forgiveness, then you better keep track of every single sin, otherwise how you will be cleansed from ALL sin at any given moment?
What I can do is ask Him to bring them to my rememberence.
Why would you ask God to bring to rememberence that which He has said was already put away on Calvary for you, once and for all? If God has said that you are dead to sin, that you HAVE redemption, the forgiveness of sins, then why can't you take God at His word about that, reckon it to be so as Romans 6 tells us to do, so that you can move on and live for God, letting the life you have in Christ be your focus instead of always being stuck in a sin-centered mentality. Because that's exactly what the gotta-keep-short-accounts teaching does. It keeps believers constantly focused on their performance and sins, instead of on Christ Jesus and His finished work on Calvary.
rileykins
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/29/2008 11:56:00 AM
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AoibhinnGrainne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Maybe we are bumping heads on semantics here.
Yes, the Sacrifice of Christ was sufficient for the remission of all sin for all time. But if a person does not believe in Christ and repent those forgiven sins do him no benefit whatsoever. The sins of a lost person may be forgiven, but they still have no relationship with God and are condemned.
So when a person is saved (indwelt by the Holy Ghost, etc.) then any sin they may commit after salvation is forgiven by that same sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, but it does no good in restoring a torn relationship with God caused by that sin without repentance and confession.
That is why we are instructed to confess and repent; to repair the relationship that was torn by the Christian's sin.
God can have no relationship with sin, and without repentance and confession a person has sin.
Thanks
RC
This sounds like works to me...things I have to do for salvation rather than grace "lest any man boast".
Also reminds me of my Catholic youth: do not die with unconfessed sin lest you find yourself in Hell because of it! Surely you are not saying that!
And what about those sins that will be revealed to me at the Judgment Seat: those sins I am not aware of having committed, say, sins of omission, those things I didn't do for the Lord but should have done?
Either we are saved by Grace through Christ alone or we are not. Either Christ's death and resurrection is sufficient for all our sins always...because our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life from before the foundation...or not. When Christ died for our sins, He died at a specific moment in space and time for a future need: my salvation. Except, by the outside-of-time God's perspective, my salvation was a done-deal. I but needed to await the moment when the Holy Spirit quickened my heart so I could respond to the salvific grace and mercy of God and make my calling and election sure.
Praise God!!!
Any sin I therefore commit subsequent to that moment is already forgiven. Yes, I need to humble myself in the sight of the Lord and confess and repent because that is part and parcel of His refining me, making me more Christ-like, conforming me to the image of His Son; that is what sanctification is all about. It is the fruit of my salvation.
But I am already saved.
Should I become stiff-necked, then, that too, is a fruit. It shows me to be NOT so much conformed to Christ and it calls into question my salvation.
But only God can see the heart, the inner Man. He alone is able to judge. And life ain't over until we breathe our last. I was truly awe-struck and humbled by the intense sanctification God brought to my late Husband in the last 2 months of his life...not to mention the previous 3 1/2 years as he struggled with a terrible terminal illness. Refiner's fire indeed!
Salvation is all God, all grace, all Him, always. Our responsibility is to be closely responsive to what God is always doing in our lives and to walk closely to Him...
And to keep our accounts short.
Aoi.
_____________________________
Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/29/2008 12:06:33 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
Hello RC
Just so I understand where you are coming from, are you saying that if believers sin and do not confess, repent, ask for forgiveness, stay fessed up, that they will have a fearful judgment, fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries to look forward to?
rileykins
Well maybe you don't understand where I am coming from.
We all have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ, that be all of us;
(2Co 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Now that is all of us, nobody gets out of this one. This is written to Believers and we will be judged whether what we are judged on is good or bad.
Now if all a Christians sins are forgiven and forgotton as soon as they happen; where does the bad that is to be judged come from. Now that judgment does not mean necessarily condemnation, just judgment.
The same is true for the Wilful sin spoken to in Hebrews 10.
(Heb 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(Heb 10:27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
We will be judged on that wilful sin, and I say that with all confidencebecause the Scripture tell us so.
Now the reason I believe a Christian must confess thier sin and repent of them (including the sins committed after salvation) is because the Scripture instructs us to do so. And yes I believe that if a person refuses to confess and repnet of a sin as a Christian they will stand judgment (maye not condemnation, but judgment), and why do I believe that way, because the Scripture says so.
Another "Judgment" is laid out in Matthew 7;
(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Now here many who call themselves Christians, who really really believe they are Christians, who seeming do all the things Christians do; doing things is Jesus' name, doing wonderful works etc. Now many of these will not be allowed entry into heaven because they work (continue) in iniquity.
And Jesus says I never knew them that continued in iniquity. That means to me they they never repented. Repentance and confession is necessary for our relationship with Crist. And I believe that because Scripture tell us that.
Now folks can make fun of me and call me a "Short lister" and "Legalistic" and whatever else, but it matters not a fried egg to me. I am going to do what Schipture tell me to do. and why?
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Because Scripture tells us to.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/29/2008 12:17:27 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
Also reminds me of my Catholic youth: do not die with unconfessed sin lest you find yourself in Hell because of it! Surely you are not saying that!
No, but I am saying you will be judged for those sins that were not confessed.
Either we are saved by Grace through Christ alone or we are not.
Grace alone? Does one not have to believe in Christ to be saved, does not one have to repent to be saved?
Let's look at the 'Alone" passage;
(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Well there it is, grace alone throuth faith not of works.
But let's not forget the next verse
(Eph 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
So if we do not do the good "Works" which God hath ordained, then I do not believe we are saved.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/29/2008 1:05:08 PM
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rileykins
Posts: 174
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Hi RC
I think what we as believers are going to be judged on will be our works. Not our sins, willfull sins, unconfessed, forgotten or otherwise, because all our sins were judged on Calvary. All of our sins were in the future when Christ died for us. We stand before God clothed in the righteousness of Christ Jesus haveing been washed in the blood of the Lamb now and forever. God judged His Son for our sins. Perhaps the good or bad part has to do with the motivation for the works that we did, I can't say. But as far as our being judged for sin, no. I can't go with that in light of the cross.
I think it's those who are unsaved, those who have rejected God's provision of redemption, the forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ Jesus who will be looking for a fearful judgement, fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries. We who belong to the Lord are not appointed to wrath, we have passed from death to life, we have been given sonship status in the Lord, a position in Christ that we can never lose, or fall out of or away from or be torn from. We are not in any way defined as God's adversaires. So I don't take that passage in Hebrews as applying to believers. o.k. thanks for your answers, that's all I have time for at the moment.
rileykins
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/29/2008 1:23:07 PM
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