RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined

RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (Full Version)

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rcjames -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/29/2008 1:59:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rileykins I think what we as believers are going to be judged on will be our works. Not our sins, willfull sins, unconfessed, forgotten or otherwise, because all our sins were judged on Calvary. So are you saying that a person who accepts Christ can live a hellish life, murder, adultery, pedeophilia, stealing, cursing God, etc. etc. And God just looks down and say "Ah, that's my son"? I am coming for him for he has no spot or wrinkle. I think not.I think that person will fall into the middle of "Depart from Me, I never knew you, you worker of iniquity". Thanks RC edited for spelling

AoibhinnGrainne -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/29/2008 2:24:53 PM)
No. Paul says: Romans 5:18-Romans 6:1-13 ~ In other words, just as it was through one offence that all people came under condemnation, so also it is through one righteous act that all people come to be considered righteous. For just as through the disobedience of the one man, many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the other man, many will be made righteous. And the Torah came into the picture so that the offence would proliferate; but where sin proliferated, grace proliferated even more. All this happened so that just as sin ruled by means of death, so also grace might rule through causing people to be considered righteous, so that they might have eternal life, through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord. So then, are we to say, "Let's keep on sinning, so that there can be more grace"? Heaven forbid! How can we, who have died to sin, still live in it? Don't you know that those of us who have been immersed into the Messiah Yeshua have been immersed into his death? Through immersion into his death we were buried with him; so that just as, through the glory of the Father, the Messiah was raised from the dead, likewise we too might live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will also be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was put to death on the execution-stake with him, so that the entire body of our sinful propensities might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For someone who has died has been cleared from sin. Now since we died with the Messiah, we trust that we will also live with him. We know that the Messiah has been raised from the dead, never to die again; death has no authority over him. For his death was a unique event that need not be repeated; but his life, he keeps on living for God. In the same way, consider yourselves to be dead to sin but alive for God, by your union with the Messiah Yeshua. Therefore, do not let sin rule in your mortal bodies, so that it makes you obey its desires; and do not offer any part of yourselves to sin as an instrument for wickedness. On the contrary, offer yourselves to God as people alive from the dead, and your various parts to God as instruments for righteousness. Aoi.

rcjames -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/29/2008 3:34:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne No. Paul says: Romans 5:18-Romans 6:1-13 ~ In other words, just as it was through one offence that all people came under condemnation, so also it is through one righteous act that all people come to be considered righteous. For just as through the disobedience of the one man, many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the other man, many will be made righteous. And the Torah came into the picture so that the offence would proliferate; but where sin proliferated, grace proliferated even more. All this happened so that just as sin ruled by means of death, so also grace might rule through causing people to be considered righteous, so that they might have eternal life, through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord. So then, are we to say, "Let's keep on sinning, so that there can be more grace"? Heaven forbid! How can we, who have died to sin, still live in it? Don't you know that those of us who have been immersed into the Messiah Yeshua have been immersed into his death? Through immersion into his death we were buried with him; so that just as, through the glory of the Father, the Messiah was raised from the dead, likewise we too might live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will also be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was put to death on the execution-stake with him, so that the entire body of our sinful propensities might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For someone who has died has been cleared from sin. Now since we died with the Messiah, we trust that we will also live with him. We know that the Messiah has been raised from the dead, never to die again; death has no authority over him. For his death was a unique event that need not be repeated; but his life, he keeps on living for God. In the same way, consider yourselves to be dead to sin but alive for God, by your union with the Messiah Yeshua. Therefore, do not let sin rule in your mortal bodies, so that it makes you obey its desires; and do not offer any part of yourselves to sin as an instrument for wickedness. On the contrary, offer yourselves to God as people alive from the dead, and your various parts to God as instruments for righteousness. Aoi. Nice post Thanks RC

rileykins -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/29/2008 4:20:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: rileykins I think what we as believers are going to be judged on will be our works. Not our sins, willfull sins, unconfessed, forgotten or otherwise, because all our sins were judged on Calvary. So are you saying that a person who accepts Christ can live a hellish life, murder, adultery, pedeophilia, stealing, cursing God, etc. etc. And God just looks down and say "Ah, that's my son"? Nope, I've never ever said that. As I said before, the grace of God doesn't teach believers to live a hellish life. I think not.I think that person will fall into the middle of "Depart from Me, I never knew you, you worker of iniquity". That person wasn't saved to begin with. God knows those who are His, the Lord says to these...I never knew you. rileykins Thanks RC edited for spelling

rcjames -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/29/2008 5:02:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rileykins quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: rileykins I think what we as believers are going to be judged on will be our works. Not our sins, willfull sins, unconfessed, forgotten or otherwise, because all our sins were judged on Calvary. So are you saying that a person who accepts Christ can live a hellish life, murder, adultery, pedeophilia, stealing, cursing God, etc. etc. And God just looks down and say "Ah, that's my son"? Nope, I've never ever said that. As I said before, the grace of God doesn't teach believers to live a hellish life. I think not.I think that person will fall into the middle of "Depart from Me, I never knew you, you worker of iniquity". That person wasn't saved to begin with. God knows those who are His, the Lord says to these...I never knew you. rileykins Thanks RC edited for spelling I agree that they never were saved. Now if you or I or Joe Blow is living a sin filled life, declaring that we need not repent or confess; would you consider us saved or in the "Never knew you catagory". Thanks RC

CropDuster -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/29/2008 9:13:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames A growing doctrine that I will tag as Hyper-Forgiveness seems to be getting more and more pppular. The short short of it is that if a person is a Christian then they are automatically forgiven for any sins they may commit; no repentance needed, no confession nedded, no asking God for forgiveness needed. Opinions please? It's also a by-product of our obsession with political correctness. I believe strongly in forgiveness, but I also want justice.

TheoJunkie -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/30/2008 11:03:24 AM)
quote: Now if you or I or Joe Blow is living a sin filled life, declaring that we need not repent or confess; would you consider us saved or in the "Never knew you catagory". The answer to the above is "not saved". (This does not, however mean they will never be saved-- they just aren't saved YET. ...We won't know if they fall into the "never" knew you category until we get to heaven and they are not there). That said, it appears that you have either moved off of, or muddled, the original question/topic of this thread. There is s diffence between "is that person a Christian"... and "is that Christian forgiven". All Christians are forgiven, even if they have failed to ask forgiveness for a particular sin, and even if they have (to date) failed to recognize a particular behavior as sinful. However, if a person is a Christian, they will ask for forgiveness for any sins they recognize, and they will endeavor to cease any behaviors they recognize as sinful. Repentance is the MARK of a forgiven Christian.... but repentance not a prerequisite for forgiveness.

rcjames -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/30/2008 11:08:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie All Christians are forgiven, even if they have failed to ask forgiveness for a particular sin, and even if they have (to date) failed to recognize a particular behavior as sinful. However, if a person is a Christian, they will ask for forgiveness for any sins they recognize, and they will endeavor to cease any behaviors they recognize as sinful. Repentance is the MARK of a forgiven Christian.... but repentance not a prerequisite for forgiveness. With all due respect Theo, it seems you are trying to have your cake and eat it also. Do you think Christians are instructed in Scripture to confess and repent of their sins (I am speaking of after they are Christian). Thsnks RC

TheoJunkie -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/30/2008 12:19:14 PM)
quote: Do you think Christians are instructed in Scripture to confess and repent of their sins (I am speaking of after they are Christian). Yes. I said as much. Not only that, but they will do so. The point is, however, that forgiveness is on the basis of God's grace through the believer's faith in the work of Christ. God does not sit back with his finger on the trigger waiting to see if we will notice a particular sin we have done before it's too late. The believer confessing and asking for forgiveness is a result of and response to the reality that comes by the above. God works first... and we respond to that work of his in our lives. By the way... if you can't eat the cake then what's the point in having one? [;)] We are forgiven by grace through faith-- THEREFORE (i.e., because of this) our response as persons of faith (people who trust the promises and realities of God) is to confess and repent and move toward obedience. It's the difference between responding out of gratitude for our souls, versus acting out of fear for our souls.

deliveredarling -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/30/2008 2:29:44 PM)
Mat 21:28 "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go work today in the vineyard.' Mat 21:29 "And he answered, 'I will not'; but afterward he regretted it and went. Mat 21:30 "The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, 'I {will,} sir'; but he did not go. Mat 21:31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you. Mat 21:32 "For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing {this,} did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.

rcjames -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/30/2008 2:33:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie quote: Do you think Christians are instructed in Scripture to confess and repent of their sins (I am speaking of after they are Christian). Yes. I said as much. Not only that, but they will do so. The point is, however, that forgiveness is on the basis of God's grace through the believer's faith in the work of Christ. God does not sit back with his finger on the trigger waiting to see if we will notice a particular sin we have done before it's too late. The believer confessing and asking for forgiveness is a result of and response to the reality that comes by the above. God works first... and we respond to that work of his in our lives. By the way... if you can't eat the cake then what's the point in having one? [;)] We are forgiven by grace through faith-- THEREFORE (i.e., because of this) our response as persons of faith (people who trust the promises and realities of God) is to confess and repent and move toward obedience. It's the difference between responding out of gratitude for our souls, versus acting out of fear for our souls. So may I be so bold as to assume you are saying that it does not matter if a person is obedient to Scripture or not? How about; (Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Theo, if I am misunderstanding you post I apologize in advance. Thsnks RC

Dennis2 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/30/2008 7:35:24 PM)
RC Seems to me that we all live in sin everyday. Do you worry? Do you get angry? Will you ever quit being anxious? Realistically I know I probably wont. I do not post this to justify a life of sin. I just thank God that Jesus has already taken my sins away never to see them again. I confess or agree with God that I really do not need to be anxious when I know He has given me everything in need for life and Godliness. In having the Holy Spirit in me reminding me of this truth He is renewing my mind. That is what true worship is all about. Romans 12. Praise God He took all my sins away never to see them 2000 years ago. I will spend the rest of my life thanking God for what He has already done. LIC Dennis

TheoJunkie -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/30/2008 10:20:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames So may I be so bold as to assume you are saying that it does not matter if a person is obedient to Scripture or not? No. Well, you can be as bold as you want, but to assume that would be contrary to everything I have said in here. quote: Theo, if I am misunderstanding you post I apologize in advance. Apology accepted.

TheoJunkie -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (5/1/2008 9:58:00 AM)
RC, I have had my coffee now, so I will try to explain/summarize... 1) Obedience to scripture does matter for Christians. 2) Christians desire to obey scripture. 3) Christians are not always successful in obeying scripture. 4) Christians move ever closer with time to better obeying scripture. 5) Obedience to scripture by the Christian is not the basis on which God considers that Christian justified. 6) God considers Christians justified on the basis of His Son's work in life and on the Cross. 7) God applies Christ's righteousness (Christ's work) to Christians by His grace alone, through their faith alone. By grace through faith, God views the Christian as he views His Son. 8) When Christians fail to obey, they are forgiven for that failure (see #7). 9) Because it does indeed matter that Christians obey (and obey ever more), God chastizes Christians when they fail to obey. 10) Chastizement of Christians by God is not condemnation, but is a form of training (yes, even a form of Grace)... with the purpose of bringing that child around to obedience by transforming the Christian's mind. (Hebrews 12). 11) When Christians fail to obey, they are convicted of this, and they ask forgiveness. This is in their nature to do so, because Christians by nature (yea, even by definition), desire to please God. Christians hate sin, and according to the new nature they have, do not sin willingly. They may sin at times, because they are not fully sanctified yet (they are BEING transformed, not COMPLETELY transformed... yet). When Christians commit sin acts, though they indeed chose that (according to the old nature)... they hate the fact that they chose to do that sin (according to their new nature). Romans 7. =========== A) People who knowledgably and willfully disobey scripture ARE NOT CHRISTIANS. B) People who do not desire to obey scripture are not Christians C) People who are not Christians are never successful in obeying scripture. D) People who are not Christians do not move closer with time to better obeying scripture. E) People who are not Christians are not forgiven. F) People who are not Christians nevertheless are held accountable to Scripture. G) People who are not Christians are condemned for their disobedience. H) People who are not Christians are not chastized for their disobedience (Hebrews 12 again) G) People who are not Christians do not ask for forgiveness. It is not in their nature to do so, because unbelievers by nature (yea, even by definition) hate God and do not desire to please him. Unbelievers love sin, according to their nature. They do not have a new nature. They sin willingly. Everything they do is sin, for "without faith it is impossible to please him" and "for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin". They are not being sanctified, because they are not in Christ. When unbelievers commit sin acts, they do so by their own choosing (according to their nature)... and they do NOT hate the fact that they shose to do that sin (because they have no new nature). ====== Hope this helps.

rcjames -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (5/1/2008 9:58:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie We are forgiven by grace through faith-- THEREFORE (i.e., because of this) our response as persons of faith (people who trust the promises and realities of God) is to confess and repent and move toward obedience. I totally agree with this post Theo. I guess I just get confused when some folks insist that a person of faith does not have to confess and repent of sin committed as a Christian. Thanks RC

deliveredarling -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (5/1/2008 11:17:59 AM)
WhooHoo Theo!!!!!! Awesome post! Thank you for the clear cut, to the point, straight forward, tell it like it is post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

TheoJunkie -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (5/1/2008 12:59:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie We are forgiven by grace through faith-- THEREFORE (i.e., because of this) our response as persons of faith (people who trust the promises and realities of God) is to confess and repent and move toward obedience. I totally agree with this post Theo. I guess I just get confused when some folks insist that a person of faith does not have to confess and repent of sin committed as a Christian. Thanks RC RC, I appreciate the affirmation and am glad we agree. I think confusion also occurs when people use the term "have to"-- with regard to any work vis a vis salvation... whether that be confession, requesting forgiveness, getting baptized, etc. "I have to" can mean different things... it can mean "God bases my salvation on me doing these things"... or it can mean "God has called me to do this because I am one who is saved, and I shall therefore do them". The two have very different practical meanings.

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