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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/9/2008 4:26:47 PM
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rileykins
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That's right rc, we have forgiveness of sins, IN HIM.
Maybe you keeping- short- accounts guys would prefer the verse to read this way....
we have redemption through our confession of sins and are forgiven in accordance with our efforts to keep short accounts.
rileykins
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/9/2008 4:27:48 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
(Heb 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Receiving the knowledge of the truth and accepting Christ are two different things all togeather.
Bob
Bob, would you please explain the difference to this ole country boy.
Thsnks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/9/2008 4:40:51 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
We all die will unconfessed and unknown sins on our conscience. To get dramatic:
If I gets struck and instantly killed by a semi while driving on a highway and taking an eye off the road for a split second to check on a cute looking man in another car, am I forgiven?
Then I would think that would come under judgment (NOt necessarily condemnation but judgment by Christ).
2Co 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/9/2008 4:50:20 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
That's right rc, we have forgiveness of sins, IN HIM.
Maybe you keeping- short- accounts guys would prefer the verse to read this way....
we have redemption through our confession of sins and are forgiven in accordance with our efforts to keep short accounts.
rileykins
But isn't that the question? That the Hyper folks think confession is not necessary and even an affront to God; even when God's word says if we confess we will be forgiven.
How about attempting to answer the questions I proposed in Post 45.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/9/2008 4:59:56 PM
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bob97
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quote:
Bob, would you please explain the difference to this ole country boy.
Seems simple to me RC...it's one thing to hear the message, it's another to accept it in our hearts. Actually hearing does no good unless the Holy Spirit writes it into our hearts does it?
That is the problem with those in Hebrews...they had received the message but were not living it and wanted to go back to the old covenant. To believe otherwise negates the OSAS theory, so I guess how you view that determines how you see the verse.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/9/2008 5:32:12 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Bob, would you please explain the difference to this ole country boy.
Seems simple to me RC...it's one thing to hear the message, it's another to accept it in our hearts. Actually hearing does no good unless the Holy Spirit writes it into our hearts does it?
That is the problem with those in Hebrews...they had received the message but were not living it and wanted to go back to the old covenant. To believe otherwise negates the OSAS theory, so I guess how you view that determines how you see the verse.
Bob
I still am a dab conjused; are you saying that from the time you forst hear the truth of the Gospel until you accept that there is no sacrifice for the sins committed during that time.
Based on that if one hears the Gospel in 2005 and accepts Chrjist in 2008 then Christ's sacrifice cover the son from birth to 2005, but for the time period between hearing and accepting is just a ****-shoot.
Bob, are you sure this is what you believe?
Or am I still not understanding what your position on this verse is?
Thsnks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/9/2008 6:00:17 PM
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designed
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quote:
rcjames-
A growing doctrine that I will tag as Hyper-Forgiveness seems to be getting more and more pppular........
..But isn't that the question? That the Hyper folks think confession is not necessary and even an affront to God; even when God's word says if we confess we will be forgiven.
Opinions please?
I have honestly never heard of such a thing. Hyper-Forgiveness? Hyper folks? Not that I'm all that in touch with whatever new and growing heresy that stems out of so called christian doctrines/circles, but it seems to me that the whole premise of what has been described as this hyper forgiveness-thingy would remove volumes of scripture from the Bible and therfore not even be remotely validated as to be called true Christian theology. Does this doctrine stem from some sort of hybrib, new agey christianity type religion? Really this just seems so very odd/off. And I can't really tell by some of the posts written here, if there may be some here who adhere to this sort of teaching.???My opinion... makes not a bit of sense.
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Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/9/2008 6:38:26 PM
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bob97
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quote:
still am a dab conjused; are you saying that from the time you forst hear the truth of the Gospel until you accept that there is no sacrifice for the sins committed during that time.
Based on that if one hears the Gospel in 2005 and accepts Chrjist in 2008 then Christ's sacrifice cover the son from birth to 2005, but for the time period between hearing and accepting is just a ****-shoot.
Bob, are you sure this is what you believe?
Or am I still not understanding what your position on this verse is?
Well RC…now you have me confused.
Tell me when do we find salvation…when we hear the word or when we accept Christ? Is it not when we make the commitment to follow Christ and accept Him as the Son of God?
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/9/2008 7:32:11 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Tell me when do we find salvation…when we hear the word or when we accept Christ? Is it not when we make the commitment to follow Christ and accept Him as the Son of God?
Bob
When we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord.
What I am saking is when does this sin take place that there is no more Sacrifice for?
I guess if it is after salvation then that would blow OSAS out of the water, but it cannot be before salvation because all past sin is forgiven at that time by the sacrifice.
Few folks want to really look into what Heb 19:26 is really trying to tell us. I think it is important, but most folks just get mad and ignore it.
Thanks
RC
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/9/2008 7:40:30 PM
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bob97
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quote:
What I am saking is when does this sin take place that there is no more Sacrifice for?
RC...when did I make reference to sin that there was no more Sacrifice for?
Maybe your reading something into my comments that I didn't intend.
quote:
Few folks want to really look into what Heb 19:26 is really trying to tell us. I think it is important, but most folks just get mad and ignore it.
By the way which chapter of Hebrews were you referring to? Or maybe your book on Hebrews is bigger than mine...if so I'm jealous.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/9/2008 7:47:58 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
What I am saking is when does this sin take place that there is no more Sacrifice for?
RC...when did I make reference to sin that there was no more Sacrifice for?
Maybe your reading something into my comments that I didn't intend.
quote:
Few folks want to really look into what Heb 19:26 is really trying to tell us. I think it is important, but most folks just get mad and ignore it.
By the way which chapter of Hebrews were you referring to? Or maybe your book on Hebrews is bigger than mine...if so I'm jealous.
Bob
Sorry about that.
(Heb 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins
(Heb 10:27)But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries
This is the passage I can get few to look at and consider.
Thsnks
RC
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/9/2008 9:27:41 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
We all die will unconfessed and unknown sins on our conscience.
Then I would think that would come under judgment (NOt necessarily condemnation but judgment by Christ).
2Co 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Thanks
RC
You mean to say that all sins are forgiven only if we confess them, but for uconfessed and unknown sins we will be judged ?
Honestly i never heard such theological viewpoint before from anyone.... Out of curiosity, may i ask for someone to kindly speak up if they also believe that?
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/9/2008 10:07:32 PM
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GraceBro
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Hi all,
"For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living." Hebrews 9: 15-17
I believe that the the New Covenant didn't start until after the Cross. That is why you have conditional forgiveness prior to that time. There is no way you can reconcile...
"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matthew 6:14-15
with...
"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you." Ephesians 4:32
and...
"Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you." Colossians 3:13
...without knowing when the New Covenant began. Forgiveness was conditional before Jesus died. After that, it is part of our inheritance as believers. We forgive others because we have been forgiven already by God not to get forgiven by God. If you don't acknowledge the differences in forgiveness between the two covenants than you must be prepared to explain the contradictions that arise. You'll have Christians saying Christ died for all their sins and then asking Him to forgive them. What sins did He not die for? If He only died for your past sins, How many of your sins were in the past when He died? And on and on.
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives." 1 John 1:8-10
What Christian claims to be without sin? What Christian claims they have not sinned? If you've been purified of all unrighteousness is there unpurified unrighteousness left over? An unbeliever claims to be without sin not a believer. John is simply saying if the shoe fits, wear it!
"In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." Hebrews 9: 22-28
I believe scripture is clear that a believer stands forgiven of their sins. If they weren't Jesus would have to keep dying for them over and over again. I wonder if people ever contemplate why Scripture says when Jesus returns that He is not coming to deal with sins, but to gather His people. Perhaps, it is because He has already done away with sin once and for all! I am not trying to convince anybody, but share what has convinced me. I'll let the Holy Spirit do the convincing.
Take care RC and the rest of you. Perhaps we will meet again on another thread, but I don't wish to go in circles on this one.
Grace and Peace
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/9/2008 10:21:59 PM
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GraceBro
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quote:
(Heb 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins
(Heb 10:27)But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries
This is the passage I can get few to look at and consider.
One last thing...
This passage is written to those who still think that a Christian needs to continually ask forgiveness, not the other way around as it often presented.
What is the "knowledge of truth" being wilfully sinned against? The answer is within the same chapter.
"Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin." Hebrews 10::17-18
The knowledge of truth is that our sins are remembered no more and there are no more sacrifices for sin. This says to put away your confession booths, 1 John 1:9ing, altar calls, rosary beads, short accounts, or whatever sacrifice you perform to deny the finished work. If you continue with your sacrifices, you are effectively saying that Christ's once and for all sacrifice was not enough to satisfy God. Therefore, if you won't put faith in that "no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."
Now I'm gone...
Grace and Peace
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/10/2008 9:41:13 AM
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FREELUTH
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
A growing doctrine that I will tag as Hyper-Forgiveness seems to be getting more and more pppular.
The short short of it is that if a person is a Christian then they are automatically forgiven for any sins they may commit; no repentance needed, no confession nedded, no asking God for forgiveness needed.
Opinions please?
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
The first of Luthers 95 Theses are listed below
When our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, said "Repent", He called for the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.
The word cannot be properly understood as referring to the sacrament of penance, i.e. confession and satisfaction, as administered by the clergy.
Yet its meaning is not restricted to repentance in one's heart; for such repentance is null unless it produces outward signs in various mortifications of the flesh.
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/10/2008 10:01:10 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
We should also remember that Christianity is a relationship, and sin is a wrong done to God. How long would a marriage last if the spouses just assumed they were forgiven when they wronged their partner? How long would a friendship last if the friends just assumed they were forgiven when one wronged the other?
What you think that if we do something wrong to someone it's a relationship problem and not a sin. But what about where we read. "There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes. a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush to evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs dissension among the brothers and sisters."
Seeing the Lord hates sin I don't know how you can explain that some of those previous mention acts are not consider sin? Which all of them have relationship written all over them.
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/10/2008 11:04:43 AM
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rileykins
Posts: 174
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
That's right rc, we have forgiveness of sins, IN HIM.
Maybe you keeping- short- accounts guys would prefer the verse to read this way....
we have redemption through our confession of sins and are forgiven in accordance with our efforts to keep short accounts.
rileykins
But isn't that the question? That the Hyper folks think confession is not necessary and even an affront to God; even when God's word says if we confess we will be forgiven.
How about attempting to answer the questions I proposed in Post 45.
Thanks
RC
Hi RC
Why do you got-to-keep-short-accounts-guys stop at continuing to ask for forgiveness? Do you also keep asking God to redeem you? Do you keep asking God to adopt you into his family? Do you also keep on asking God to seal you with the Holy Spirit? Why not also keep on asking God to give you an inheritance in His Son? If you are going to keep on asking God to forgive you of your sins, then why not keep on asking God to give you all the other things that He's also already freely given you in His Son.
If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. What does the word all mean to you? And how many times does one have to cleansed from all of something?
I think too that many believers get repentance mixed up with doing penance. Repentance is simply to have a change of mind. I always thought that Martin Luther didn't go far enough.
rileykins
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/10/2008 11:34:18 AM
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rileykins
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
That's right rc, we have forgiveness of sins, IN HIM.
Maybe you keeping- short- accounts guys would prefer the verse to read this way....
we have redemption through our confession of sins and are forgiven in accordance with our efforts to keep short accounts.
rileykins
But isn't that the question? That the Hyper folks think confession is not necessary and even an affront to God; even when God's word says if we confess we will be forgiven.
How about attempting to answer the questions I proposed in Post 45.
Here's a link for you, if you are interested, if not, well, whatever...
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1044571689.html
I think this is from that grace college in Wisc. not sure, but anyway if you have time to read it, enjoy.
rileykins
Thanks
RC
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/10/2008 1:35:20 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. What does the word all mean to you? And how many times does one have to cleansed from all of something?
I think too that many believers get repentance mixed up with doing penance. Repentance is simply to have a change of mind. I always thought that Martin Luther didn't go far enough.
How often does one need to confess their sins to be cleansed?
How many times does one wash their hand to be clean; everytime they get dirty.
The Scripture in First John that speaks to confessing a sin IF we sin was written to Christians. IF I sin I am obedient to Schripture and confess my sins to God.
That is also the reason I ask God for forgiveness; because Scripture tells us to do so.
If a Christian sins; then there is a need for repentance, for a Christian that sins definately has the wrong mindset and needs to change.
Thanks
RC
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/10/2008 1:53:41 PM
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FREELUTH
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RC: Since all christians sin, that means all Christians have the wrong mindset !?. Do all Christians have to sin ? NO !!! Do all Christians sin ? YES !! And true Christians repent .
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/10/2008 2:26:46 PM
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rileykins
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. What does the word all mean to you? And how many times does one have to cleansed from all of something?
I think too that many believers get repentance mixed up with doing penance. Repentance is simply to have a change of mind. I always thought that Martin Luther didn't go far enough.
How often does one need to confess their sins to be cleansed?
Continual confession of our sins doesn't cleanse us or keep us cleansed. The blood of Christ did and does.
What can wash away my sins?
NOTHING but the blood of Jesus...
Nothing but the blood of Jesus, and that also includes water baptism. I couldn't resist, I just had to throw that in.
How many times does one wash their hand to be clean; everytime they get dirty.
The blood of Christ is not like that of bulls and goats that only covered sins until the next time another scarifice was necessary.
The Scripture in First John that speaks to confessing a sin IF we sin was written to Christians. IF I sin I am obedient to Schripture and confess my sins to God.
I don't share your view that that verse is written to believers.
That is also the reason I ask God for forgiveness; because Scripture tells us to do so.
If a Christian sins; then there is a need for repentance, for a Christian that sins definately has the wrong mindset and needs to change.
I agree that Christians need to change their minds when it comes to sin in their lives, it's the how a believer goes about doing that, that we have a disagreement on.
You say, 1John1:9, I say Romans chapter 6.
o.k. well, good luck with keeping fessed up, I hope you can keep all your sins accounted for and keep yourself clean 24/7 for the rest of your life because if just one sin goes unconfessed, well.....
color]
rileykins
Thanks
RC
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/10/2008 3:31:33 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FREELUTH
RC: Since all christians sin, that means all Christians have the wrong mindset !?. Do all Christians have to sin ? NO !!! Do all Christians sin ? YES !! And true Christians repent .
When they sin, they were not following after the Spirit of God, but giving into the devil and their flesh. That is the wrong mindset.
No a Christian does not have to sin.
And Scripture says Christians should confess, seek forgiveness, and repent.
Thsnks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/10/2008 3:39:38 PM
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rcjames
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rileykins,
When we are saved all prior sins are forgiven and forgottes. Now if that person kills his mother-in-law ten years later that needs to be dealt with on our part by confession, seeking forgiveness, and repentance.
The same blood of Christ will forgive that sin, but not without action on our part.
I mean the instruction to confess, repent, ask forgiveness is well laid out in Scripture, and I do not understand why otherwise obedient Believers resist doing what is ask of us. I guess it is just arrogance.
Jesus said;
(Luke 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
So if I sin, I will do the things the Word of God says, and I will repent, confess and seek the forgivenss that I know I will get.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/10/2008 3:52:17 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Bob, would you please explain the difference to this ole country boy.
Seems simple to me RC...it's one thing to hear the message, it's another to accept it in our hearts. Actually hearing does no good unless the Holy Spirit writes it into our hearts does it?
That is the problem with those in Hebrews...they had received the message but were not living it and wanted to go back to the old covenant. To believe otherwise negates the OSAS theory, so I guess how you view that determines how you see the verse.
Bob
those in the hebrews passage are spoken of this way
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
is it your understanding that those who were sanctified in this verse were not believers?
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/10/2008 4:12:09 PM
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Jhud
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It's interesting because I seem to find myself agreeing and disagreeing here with both sides.
I think confessing, repenting, and seeking forgiveness are an important part of obeying Christ, but I think once we are born again, and made new creatures, salvation is complete and there is nothing I can do to add or detract from it. A sin does not have the power to cause me to be 'unborn' from God's family.
However, ongoing sin without repentance would be an indicator that a rebirth had never occurred.
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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