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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 12:18:27 PM
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rileykins
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Good stuff rileykins!
[/quote]
Hi URForgiven
It amazes me the lack of understanding displayed by the gotta-keep-short-accounts crowd concering what Paul taught about Christ IN us OUR hope of glory and what that means. So now the grace of God teaches believers to go to malls, shoot up people, rob banks and rape children???!!! Unbelievable!
rileykins
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 12:50:36 PM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2253
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DD,
If you agree with me, I'm glad to hear it.
I find that the bible teaches both:
1) We are 100% forgiven, no strings attached.
2) The forgiven person will not persist in their sins.
We are forgiven by sheer grace... it is applied through faith, but it is contingent on nothing except Christ's work.
At the same time, God saves us UNTO repentance and good works.
The sequence is thus:
Grace --> Conviction of one's sin --> Faith --> Forgiveness --> Repentance from Sin unto a love of holiness --> Increasing good works, decreasing individual sins.
I deny "cheap grace" ... and I deny that there are any conditions placed on God's forgiveness.
Repentance from sin unto good works is FRUIT... not seeds.
Is this what you hold?
< Message edited by TheoJunkie -- 4/23/2008 12:58:07 PM >
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 12:52:53 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
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quote:
URForgiven: "The point being my friend is that you have made your forgiveness dependent upon yourself, and not the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is the opposite of faith in God, it is faith in yourself and your own ability to make yourself acceptable to God."
R.C.James: Now you change your mind and say that we must believe to be forgven; you can't have it both ways.
It is dependent on us (our belief in Christ as instructed in Scripture) that brings about salvation and forgiveness.
It is also dependent on us ( and our continued being obedient to Scripture) (confession, asking forgiveness, and repentance) that brings forgiveness for sins committed after salvation.
R.C., that sounds like salvation by works. I thought we didn't have to "do" anything to earn out salvation once we've been forgiven of our sins by Christ.
Just kiddin with ya, R.C. The odd thing is, I find myself agreeing with you. Can you believe it?
Great posts! Keep it up. I think you're more skilled in your defense against this HF false teaching than me by far.
Heavendweller
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 12:59:46 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 790
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
"repentance is dependency upon Jesus Christ"
Show me where in the Bible is says this.
Dependency on Christ is the result of pursuing a relationship with Him. Repentance has nothing to do with dependency. He doesn't cause us to sin- He forgives us for sinning, when we ask. If we are not His children , we wouldn't need to ask for forgiveness
Even tho you concede that we won't want to sin after we become His children, we still will sin. So how do you suppose that the sin goes away? We've done something wrong and He just magically makes it go away? What if you didn't learn from that sin and keep repeating it because you were never sorry in thew first place. Why do you suppose He tells the churches in Revelations, which are full of believers, to repent? Because they were walking right and spitting white? This is just so unfathomable to me that people believe this.
If you do not recognize that repentance is dependence upon Jesus Christ, then you have no option but to sin, for He is The Sinless One, and dependence upon Him is your only hope.
There us nothing magic about it. It is called propitiation. God forgives you because of His Sons shed blood on the cross. Do you presume to think that you are the initiator of your own forgiveness? All of your sins were in the future when Christ died on that cross. Why would you think that there is something you need to add to what Christ has already accomplished?
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 1:22:36 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 790
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
Hi URForgiven
It amazes me the lack of understanding displayed by the gotta-keep-short-accounts crowd concering what Paul taught about Christ IN us OUR hope of glory and what that means. So now the grace of God teaches believers to go to malls, shoot up people, rob banks and rape children???!!! Unbelievable!
rileykins
How true, and how sad. Their zeal is admirable, if not misplaced. Every day lived under this false belief, is merely another day wasted.
It is not until a person truly grasps the truth that the Christian life is not them, but it is Christ living in them; it is only then they can begin to understand exactly how great the sacrifice of Jesus was, and how it changed absolutely everything about our relationship with God.
Forgiveness is the means to give them what they really need, and what they really need is life. The wages of sin is death, and the only thing a dead person needs...is life.
Peace my brother
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 1:34:58 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
If the message in Hebrews 10 is not written to unbelievers then the doctrine of OSAS can be thrown out the window.
A....yeah. Some things need to be thrown out the window.
"You will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of the God; severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off." Romans 11:9-22
quote:
Because it would be apparent the we could walk away from Christ.
A.....yeah again. I have a free will which God has given me, I'm not a robot. "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knwoing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire." II Peter 2:20-22
Heavendweller
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 1:41:45 PM
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deliveredarling
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Yes Theo junkie that is what I believe
URF, to address your first question, I can't honestly remeber what my train of thought was when I wrote that  .
Secondly, where is the humility in not asking for forgiveness when we sin everyday.
Thirdly, the promise of forgiveness came with the cross. That is the hope, knowing that we will sin and He will forgive us, if we repent, turning from it, toward Him. We have to acknowledge our sinful natures and our sin. We areto be holy as he is Holy, not we are holy as He is holy. the journey did not stop at the cross, that for us is when it began. We can't just sin and say we are forgiven. He died for all sin and tells us to repent. Why do you suppose that is? Do you think He's only talking to non-believers? I just don't see how not us not having to ask for forgiveness makes any sense when he knows that we will sin. The promise of forgiveness means that he will not hold it against us and we will not be judged for those confessed sins. You seem to forget that there was only one perfectly sinless person-Jesus Christ. We didn't make the sacrifice He did. Nor will we walk the face of this earth as He did. The best we can do is do the best we can by constantly asking Him to purify our hearts, by acknowledging our sin and asking forgiveness for it.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 2:01:08 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Your sins are forgiven, Repentance is dependency upon Jesus Christ. If, in your mind, Jesus Christ leads those who depend on Him to sin, then I do not know your Jesus Christ, nor do I wish to.
I am a little confused here, are you saying that even if a person wants to repent that Christ may not want him to stop sinning?
I am saying that if we, as a Christian, sin: then we should be convicted of that sin, confess that sin and repent of that sin; what in the world are you trying to say?
Thanks
RC
If you are in Christ, you HAVE forgiveness. That is present tense, and it always will be present tense.
In Christ is forgiveness and eternal life. If you are IN Him you HAVE forgiveness and eternal life.
There is nothing left for you to do. Do you get that? Christ has done it all. Do not go beyond what I have written, stay with it.
The question is not do we confess, and/or do we repent. The question is what does that mean, and how is it accomplished?
To confess means to acknowledge, to agree with. To acknowledge what, to agree with what? Ultimately, all sin is the result of pride. But pride shows itself in an attitude of self-sufficiency and independence. Is this not what really transpired in the garden? "You will surely be like God"? The eating of the apple is just the result of an attitude that says, "I don't need God, I can decide for myself, I can be God." Our confession is always our agreeing with God that we have been acting, thinking independently of Him.
...and our repentance is then placing our dependence back where it belongs.
We are created to be dependent and we will be dependent upon something. For unbelievers their dependence is on everything but God. For believers, our dependence is on God. This is possible because of the restored Spirit of God within us, as Believers.
We, as Christians, are indwelt by God Himself. Do you get that? You have God living in you. This is not true of unbelievers, this is only true of believers. We are a new creature, an entirely unique being.
When we are relying, abiding, depending on the life of Jesus, Who now lives in us, WE WILL NOT SIN. It is impossible, for HE is The Sinless One. He is Sinless, not us. This dependency on Jesus is our constant and never ending choice. It is not a daily activity, it is a moment by moment activity. This turning of the control of ourselves over to Christ, Who now indwells us, IS our repentance. It is changing from dependence upon ourselves to dependence upon Him.
"Christ in you...your only hope of glory."
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 4/23/2008 2:35:40 PM >
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 2:16:17 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Your sins are forgiven, Repentance is dependency upon Jesus Christ. If, in your mind, Jesus Christ leads those who depend on Him to sin, then I do not know your Jesus Christ, nor do I wish to.
UR,
Now without reading R.C.'s response, I think the operative word there is "leads." Jesus Christ does not lead a Christian to sin. There is such a thing as REBELLION. We rebel against God when we sin. Those of us who have children understand that concept of rebellion well. We may instruct our children in the ways and precepts of the Lord, but they can and do rebel, just like the Prodigal Son.
James makes it clear that sin is not of God. "Let no one say when he is tempted, that he is tempted by God; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death." St. James 1:13-15
Heavendweller
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 2:25:10 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Your sins are forgiven, Repentance is dependency upon Jesus Christ. If, in your mind, Jesus Christ leads those who depend on Him to sin, then I do not know your Jesus Christ, nor do I wish to.
UR,
Now without reading R.C.'s response, I think the operative word there is "leads." Jesus Christ does not lead a Christian to sin. There is such a thing as REBELLION. We rebel against God when we sin. Those of us who have children understand that concept of rebellion well. We may instruct our children in the ways and precepts of the Lord, but they can and do rebel, just like the Prodigal Son.
James makes it clear that sin is not of God. "Let no one say when he is tempted, that he is tempted by God; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death." St. James 1:13-15
Heavendweller
It is impossible to be dependent upon Jesus and be in rebellion. But, being dependent upon ones self, IS rebellion.
The point being that if one is dependent upon Christ, Christ will not lead one to sin.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 2:52:15 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5059
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
It is impossible to be dependent upon Jesus and be in rebellion. But, being dependent upon ones self, IS rebellion.
The point being that if one is dependent upon Christ, Christ will not lead one to sin.
A christian can sin (he is not following Christ at the point in his life), so what takes place them?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 2:52:22 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
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quote:
It is impossible to be dependent upon Jesus and be in rebellion. But, being dependent upon ones self, IS rebellion.
In one sense you are right. "There is a way that seems right to man, but its end is the way to death." So man, in and of himself, without having the benefit of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not able to please God. His mind is set on the flesh. Mans' ways all lead to death.
But we can look at many examples of Christians who have sinned, done wrong, gone against the will of God. While they were committing these wrong deeds, they were doing the opposite (rebelling) of what God wanted them to.
How can any Christian say, I've never hurt my spouse? I've never rebelled against my parents. I've never looked at a woman lustfully. I've never disobeyed the laws of the land. I've never done anything wrong whatsoever now that I'm saved.
What Christian can claim that they please God at all times, at every moment, in all of their thoughts, words, and actions?
quote:
The point being that if one is dependent upon Christ, Christ will not lead one to sin.
Do we not have two natures, our new nature in Christ - the new creation, and our old nature, which is our sinful nature - our flesh? Do we always at all times have our old nature, our sinful nature in submission to our new nature?
I would like to say that as a Christian I am perfect. Sure Christ said we must be just that - meaning complete. But I am a work in progress, being changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another. I have not yet arrived.
Heavendweller
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 3:10:04 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
It is impossible to be dependent upon Jesus and be in rebellion. But, being dependent upon ones self, IS rebellion.
The point being that if one is dependent upon Christ, Christ will not lead one to sin.
A christian can sin (he is not following Christ at the point in his life), so what takes place them?
Thanks
RC
I have no idea what takes place for you. For myself, I thank God that He no longer holds my sins against me. I agree with Him that whatever it is, is out of character with who I now am as a new creation in Christ...as a Child of God.
Through this I recognize my need, and my need is Him. I thank Him that he loves me and that there is no longer any condemnation for me, because I am in Christ.
Then...HE goes to work...to change me, to conform me into the image of Christ.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 4:21:51 PM
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TheoJunkie
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It seems to me that there is a failure to communicate in here.
What I am getting from URF is basically my own position (i.e, no strings attached to grace, AND ALSO Christians will not persist in sin).
URF, it appears that you are emphasizing the grace side of things in your argument, and as a result your readers are taking this to mean you are excluding the repentance side of things in your doctrine.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
RC, I can't tell if you are misreading URF, or whether you believe that God waits for your to confess and repent from each and every sin behavior before he forgives you of that particular sin behavior. Please clarify your position.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 4:44:19 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5059
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
RC, I can't tell if you are misreading URF, or whether you believe that God waits for your to confess and repent from each and every sin behavior before he forgives you of that particular sin behavior. Please clarify your position.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
URF says that if a christian sins they are not following Christ (and I agree), but doesn't that mean the person has to repent of not following Christ to again follow him
Sor there you have it; I think if a Christian sins and needs to confess and to repent.
URF says no, just carry on with your sin or not; does not matter.
I think this is OSAS run amuck.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 6:04:51 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
RC, I can't tell if you are misreading URF, or whether you believe that God waits for your to confess and repent from each and every sin behavior before he forgives you of that particular sin behavior. Please clarify your position.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
URF says that if a christian sins they are not following Christ (and I agree), but doesn't that mean the person has to repent of not following Christ to again follow him
Sor there you have it; I think if a Christian sins and needs to confess and to repent.
URF says no, just carry on with your sin or not; does not matter.
I think this is OSAS run amuck.
Thsnks
RC
A unique and unenlightened interpretation of what I have said. Apparently your indoctrination is complete.
"How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" Hebrews 10:29
Your response reveals a complete lack of understanding of what salvation is. Salvation is not getting your sins forgiven, salvation is the receiving of life. The wages of sin is death, the gift of God is life.
"For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!" Romans 5:10
Peace all
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 4/23/2008 6:46:04 PM >
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 6:10:55 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1725
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Maybe it is a misunderstanding of URF, but I understood him to say that we do not need to repent of our sins after we are saved. This I do not agree with at all. Please clarify URF.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 6:16:11 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 790
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
It seems to me that there is a failure to communicate in here.
What I am getting from URF is basically my own position (i.e, no strings attached to grace, AND ALSO Christians will not persist in sin).
URF, it appears that you are emphasizing the grace side of things in your argument, and as a result your readers are taking this to mean you are excluding the repentance side of things in your doctrine.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
RC, I can't tell if you are misreading URF, or whether you believe that God waits for your to confess and repent from each and every sin behavior before he forgives you of that particular sin behavior. Please clarify your position.
You are close Theo  .
I believe I placed great emphasis on repentance, I also believe that some see only what they want to see, regardless of what is written. (Not you, BTW)
My emphasis is always and at all times on Jesus Christ. It's all about Him.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 6:19:16 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 790
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Maybe it is a misunderstanding of URF, but I understood him to say that we do not need to repent of our sins after we are saved. This I do not agree with at all. Please clarify URF.
I would refer you back to post #158.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 6:40:54 PM
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Bluethread
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Joined: 11/8/2007
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This thead moves fast. You leave for a short period and there's a page full of conversation. Forgive me if I missed it but it appears to me that we have a problem of definiton. If I understand the Scriptures, repentence has nothing to do with our feelings or some repentence ritual. It appears to be a means of making things right, as much as is possible. There are three things that are necessary for proper repentence according to Torah. First, we recognize that we did something wrong, then we make restitution to compensate those who were wronged and reinforce in our minds that it is wrong and third, we reform our behavior so we do not repeat the error. Thus, repentence is not just for salvation, but also helps us to mature and sustain the proper social order.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 4/23/2008 6:49:12 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 7:22:46 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1725
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Your answer is very obscure. Do you or do you not believe we have to ask for forgiveness after we are saved? "Let your yes be yes, or your no be no".
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 7:31:59 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 997
Joined: 11/8/2007
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Yes, because it helps us to mature and sustain the proper social order.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 7:49:29 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 790
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Your answer is very obscure. Do you or do you not believe we have to ask for forgiveness after we are saved? "Let your yes be yes, or your no be no".
I have answered, I would never insult my Lord and Savior by asking Him to do what He has already done. I do not treat His sacrifice with contempt, as do those who believe His sacrifice was not enough.
Before you 1 John 1:9 me to death, you might want to look back at previous posts, as we have covered that ad nuseum already.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 7:55:23 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 997
Joined: 11/8/2007
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URForgiven:
What do you think about the social and personal growth advantages to repentance.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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