RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (Full Version)

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JimboFletch -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 3:05:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: restored08

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

What most people reject is not water baptism, but rather the notion that water baptism is somehow a requirement of Gods salvation plan.


Well how do you explain John 3:5. Nobody seems to be able to do that...

The passage (not an isolated verse) explains itself. Born of water, in context, is natural birth, born of the Spirit, in context, is supernatural birth. Two births and two births only are mentioned by Jesus. There is no mysterious 3rd birth ever spoken of, only natural and supernatural.



URForgiven -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 3:34:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: restored08

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

What most people reject is not water baptism, but rather the notion that water baptism is somehow a requirement of Gods salvation plan.


Well how do you explain John 3:5. Nobody seems to be able to do that. Because to me is means just what it says. And if it means exactly what it says to you then you also reject Jesus.
The salvation comes through confession. I'm not speaking of a salvation plan there is no plan to salvation simply confessing the Lord Jesus and believing with your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shalt be saved. Confession is made unto salvation. If we take up our crosses and follow Christ and do what Jesus did, you must know that Jesus was baptized with the water baptism, so why are followers not doing the same?


John 3:5 is explained by John 3:6.



restored08 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 3:45:59 PM)

Please read the following scripture and tell me if you still think that salvation and water baptism don't go hand and hand.

Mark 1:4 Mark 16:16 Luke 3:21-22 Luke 7:29-30,31 Acts 2:38 Acts 8:18 Acts 8:36-39 and Acts 19:6.

One indicates that if you believe and be baptized you will be saved.
some indicates that the Holy Spirit is given after receiving the water baptism.
quote:

[every time you see the word water in the bible doesn't mean it's speaking of baptism and every time we see baptism doesn't mean it's speaking of water baptism.

If the scripture read baptize in the name of that's water baptism.



JimboFletch -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 3:50:40 PM)

What is required for the remission of sin, water OR blood; or is it water and blood?



restored08 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 3:53:11 PM)

[/quote]
The passage (not an isolated verse) explains itself. Born of water, in context, is natural birth, born of the Spirit, in context, is supernatural birth. Two births and two births only are mentioned by Jesus. There is no mysterious 3rd birth ever spoken of, only natural and supernatural.
[/quote]

To say natural birth, you're talking carnality. Everything I inquire about and all comments are directed toward spirituality not naturally. John 3:5 says except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

So then that means according to you, the water being a natural birth, that anybody that wasn't born in a pool of water won't enter the kingdom of God.



JimboFletch -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 3:58:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: restored08
So then that means according to you, the water being a natural birth, that anybody that wasn't born in a pool of water won't enter the kingdom of God.

Okay wise guy, are there 2 or 3 births required to get to heaven? You advocate 3, natural, water, and Spirit. Not scriptural.

Maybe you've never heard of a woman's water breaking just before birth, but the rest of the planet earth seems to have heard about it.
[8|]



restored08 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 4:02:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

quote:

ORIGINAL: restored08

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

What most people reject is not water baptism, but rather the notion that water baptism is somehow a requirement of Gods salvation plan.


Well how do you explain John 3:5. Nobody seems to be able to do that. Because to me is means just what it says. And if it means exactly what it says to you then you also reject Jesus.
The salvation comes through confession. I'm not speaking of a salvation plan there is no plan to salvation simply confessing the Lord Jesus and believing with your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shalt be saved. Confession is made unto salvation. If we take up our crosses and follow Christ and do what Jesus did, you must know that Jesus was baptized with the water baptism, so why are followers not doing the same?


John 3:5 is explained by John 3:6.


No baby, John 3:6 does not explain 3:5

3:5 means except you be baptised by the remission of sin (water) and of the spirit (baptized with the Holy Spirit) you cannot enter the kingdom of God. 3:6 born of the flesh is, born of the spirit is spirit. We being born of women have to exist in our fleshly bodies, and be born again (spiritual birth) those that have been born again (by the spirit) are spirit. STUDY TO SHOW THYSELF APPROVED!



URForgiven -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 4:03:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: restored08

Please read the following scripture and tell me if you still think that salvation and water baptism don't go hand and hand.

Mark 1:4 Mark 16:16 Luke 3:21-22 Luke 7:29-30,31 Acts 2:38 Acts 8:18 Acts 8:36-39 and Acts 19:6.

One indicates that if you believe and be baptized you will be saved.
some indicates that the Holy Spirit is given after receiving the water baptism.
quote:

[every time you see the word water in the bible doesn't mean it's speaking of baptism and every time we see baptism doesn't mean it's speaking of water baptism.

If the scripture read baptize in the name of that's water baptism.


I do not think that salvation and water baptism go hand and hand.



restored08 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 4:06:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: restored08
So then that means according to you, the water being a natural birth, that anybody that wasn't born in a pool of water won't enter the kingdom of God.

Okay wise guy, are there 2 or 3 births required to get to heaven? You advocate 3, natural, water, and Spirit. Not scriptural.

No I'm not advocating 3, I was asking a question.

Maybe you've never heard of a woman's water breaking just before birth, but the rest of the planet earth seems to have heard about it.
[8|]



restored08 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 5:00:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

What is required for the remission of sin, water OR blood; or is it water and blood?


I would think both. John did baptize with water and preach the remission of sin. And Jesus had to shed His blood that we could recieve and live under grace.

I'm not a theologist, nor have I been to a seminary or anything like that. But I do believe that if I am to walk as Jesus did, then I am to baptized with the same baptism that he was baptized with.



JimboFletch -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 5:09:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: restored08
John did baptize with water and preach the remission of sin....

If John's baptism resulted in the remission of sin, then Jesus could have stayed in heaven and not endure the shame and the cross.

Didn't John preach repentance from sin, not remission?



GrahamCracker -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 6:12:09 PM)

GreatDivide said:
quote:

In the Bible baptism is considered to be not something we do, but something God is doing. It is indeed "the working of God" (Colossians 2:12).


So much for you fuzzy thinking. Water baptism IS something that man does--as commanded by God. The sentence structure in Col. 2:12 contains a passive verb. The subject of the verb is unnamed. How does that make the agent of the baptism God?

"I baptize with water, but there comes one after me who will baptize with the HS." (Matt. 3:11). The agent there is a man, John the Baptist. I could quote others.

restored08 said in post 17
quote:

Well how do you explain John 3:5. Nobody seems to be able to do that. Because to me is means just what it says. And if it means exactly what it says to you then you also reject Jesus.

Well, I have discussed it many times. Great Divide can attest to that. With regard to insisting that it "means what it says," be careful what you insist on. It says "unless a man is born of water and of Spirit" NOT "unless a man is born of baptism and Spirit."

I note that with 47 posts credited to your username, even if some of them have been deleted you have not been around CW for very long. I have discussed the subject of baptism many, many, many times--ad infinitum. I do believe the Bible is the word of God.

quote:

It's like they don't believe entirely in the word of God. There is scripture backing up the importance of water baptism.
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he can not enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5


Or maybe that they believe it just as strongly but have a different interpretation.

Ps103 said
quote:

Larry--yes, the thread (at least the posts that flabbergasted me) leaned toward your #1. They claim water baptism was never required--only baptism of the Holy Spirit. They were not discussing Baptism as salvic/non-salvic.

Well, anything is possible I suppose. I do get a little annoyed by those who insist that when the immersion medium isn't explicit that it must be the baptism of the HS. I would insist that whent the immersion medium isn't explicit, that most likely it is talking about water baptism.

mcleod said in post #20
quote:

Well I have and they are called Grace fellowship. They have a college in Grand Rapids MI. which and I attend one of their gatherings for awhile. I believe also they have a college in Milwaukee WI. They go by what is stated in Ephesians ch 4 starting in verse 4 There is one body and one Spirit-just as...


If they're teaching it a college, then it must be established "doctrine" in some circles, just as Ps103 says. I'll have to take it under advisement. Thanks for the info.

rileykins said in post 23
quote:

The baptism that the Apostle Paul taught was a baptism into Christ. This baptism is the placing of the believer today into the Body of Christ....


Not seeking to quibble, seeing's how rileykins and I agree on probably a lot more than we disagree. I simply disagree with the substance of the post.

URForgiven said in post 25
quote:

We need to remember that every time we see the word "water" in the Bible it does not mean water baptism. And every time we see the word "baptism" in the Bible it does not mean water baptism.


Generally, when water is not explicitly mentioned as the baptism medium, I tend to interpret it as intending to mean water. Only when some other medium is expressly mentioned do I interpret it NOT to mean water.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 7:20:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker

[/]URForgiven said in post 25

quote:

We need to remember that every time we see the word "water" in the Bible it does not mean water baptism. And every time we see the word "baptism" in the Bible it does not mean water baptism.


Generally, when water is not explicitly mentioned as the baptism medium, I tend to interpret it as intending to mean water. Only when some other medium is expressly mentioned do I interpret it NOT to mean water.
There, ya see, GC, we do agree on something!!! [:)]



TheoJunkie -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 8:03:27 PM)

quote:

the only baptism they need


I see the thread has moved on from this...

But there is a difference between NEED and SHOULD. There is a difference between criteria and command.

There is also a difference between ignorance or being taught wrong... and willful disobedience.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 8:20:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103
These forums are so educational--I had no idea there were Christians who did not believe in Baptism....[&:]


Wouldn't they be members of a cult? Christians believe the Bible is the word of God. Jesus was baptized. And it wasn't to have His sins washed away.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 8:29:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

What is required for the remission of sin, water OR blood; or is it water and blood?


1 John 1
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 Peter 1
18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:


Revelation 7
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 8:33:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker

restored08 said in post 17
quote:

Well how do you explain John 3:5. Nobody seems to be able to do that. Because to me is means just what it says. And if it means exactly what it says to you then you also reject Jesus.

Well, I have discussed it many times. Great Divide can attest to that. With regard to insisting that it "means what it says," be careful what you insist on. It says "unless a man is born of water and of Spirit" NOT "unless a man is born of baptism and Spirit."


Amen!



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 9:05:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcleod

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom

I've never heard of a Christian rejecting baptism before


Neither have I.


Well I have and they are called Grace fellowship. They have a college in Grand Rapids MI. which and I attend one of their gatherings for awhile. I believe also they have a college in Milwaukee WI. They go by what is stated in Ephesians ch 4 starting in verse 4 There is one body and one Spirit-just as you were called- one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father to all who is over all and in all.
Since there is a baptism of the Holy Spirit. Then you do not need to have water baptism. Just like you don't go out and sacrific a lamb anymore you need not to dunk yourself anymore.


But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Peter 2:1)

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;(Titus 3:10)

I'm wondering if false teachers/heretics are Christians.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:9)



greatdivide46 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 9:20:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: restored08
John did baptize with water and preach the remission of sin....

If John's baptism resulted in the remission of sin, then Jesus could have stayed in heaven and not endure the shame and the cross.

Didn't John preach repentance from sin, not remission?

Here's an interesting verse that bears on this: "John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (Mark 1:4).

Apparently John did baptize for repentance and the forgivneness of sins. [sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]



GrahamCracker -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 9:25:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

Here's an interesting verse that bears on this: "John appears, baptizing in the wilderness and procaliming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins[color" (Mark 1:4)

Apparently John did baptize for repentance and the forgivneness of sins.


Uh. No. The forgiveness of sins was from repentance, not from baptism.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 9:28:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

Here's an interesting verse that bears on this: "John appears, baptizing in the wilderness and procaliming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins[color" (Mark 1:4)

Apparently John did baptize for repentance and the forgivneness of sins.


Uh. No. The forgiveness of sins was from repentance, not from baptism.

OK. Makes sense to me. [:)]



abu_khomar -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/9/2008 11:57:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: restored08

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

What most people reject is not water baptism, but rather the notion that water baptism is somehow a requirement of Gods salvation plan.


Well how do you explain John 3:5. Nobody seems to be able to do that...

The passage (not an isolated verse) explains itself. Born of water, in context, is natural birth, born of the Spirit, in context, is supernatural birth. Two births and two births only are mentioned by Jesus. There is no mysterious 3rd birth ever spoken of, only natural and supernatural.


Hello,

So if someone has not yet been born of the Spirit, are they 1/2 born again? Since there are two births taught that must be done to enter into the kingdom of heaven, if only one of them is done, wouldn't that person be.... half saved?



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/10/2008 3:46:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
So if someone has not yet been born of the Spirit, are they 1/2 born again? Since there are two births taught that must be done to enter into the kingdom of heaven, if only one of them is done, wouldn't that person be.... half saved?


No. They're not born again at all. They're just born. And without the second birth, they don't receive the things of the Spirit of God...for those things are spiritually discerned.



JimboFletch -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/10/2008 8:39:28 AM)

restored08, in theological terms, repentance and remission are not identical.

Remission is a pardon of a sin; the forgiveness of an offense.



JimboFletch -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/10/2008 8:41:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32

quote:

ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
So if someone has not yet been born of the Spirit, are they 1/2 born again? Since there are two births taught that must be done to enter into the kingdom of heaven, if only one of them is done, wouldn't that person be.... half saved?


No. They're not born again at all. They're just born. And without the second birth, they don't receive the things of the Spirit of God...for those things are spiritually discerned.

Correct.

There is no "Again" until the second, spiritual birth.



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